Coyotes At Work

[stoneam2006]

Coyote are probably the smartest animals we have around (except for elusive mt lion lol). That's what makes them so good at what they do and how they seem to succeed even when so many out there will shot on sight (illegal). I wish I could trap areas some of you here speak of I personally have never encountered a population that high.

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[Steve D]

5 minutes ago, stoneam2006 said:

I personally have never encountered a population that high.

The population in this particular area is not that bad in comparison because they do get hunted and trapped but the ones that survive and breed year after year are some wise old and big dogs that just keep getting smarter. Two callers from up north shot 64 last winter and quite  a few of the dogs guys shoot fifty to sixty a year. Trapping them is difficult to say the least because they are smart and elusive.

  I have a couple on camera that would easily top 50 lbs. and those are the ones I would like to catch and hope I have enough trap to hold them.

[stoneam2006]

Absolutely I trap educated yotes year after year to just make sure they know I'm still after them. They will dig you out from backside and if double up on back they just circle around until they decide not worth the risk. There's a few guys in the fingerlakes that trap in the 50 to over 100 a year that I know of year after year. But with those kind of numbers I wonder what the miles were. I lost one a few years back to a bad stake that the neighbor (avid yote hunter and trapper) said was the biggest dog he's ever seen but couldn't get close enough for a shot. And last year had a yote rip a 18 inch super stake on number 2 chain out of the ground. I imagine he was a real good dog. I had been after him for a month every 3 days like clockwork he would walk the cut between fields. Finally after just letting it sit and not messing with it he got pinched but even my super stakes didn't hold him I was amazed. Just like deer they don't get big by being dumb lol...

Btw...in my opinion dog guys (while a great way to hunt them and I would love to have the chance to participate with someone) do not count with actually outsmarting the coyote. Strictly a numbers game for them. For me it's much much more to know I had a yote step on a 2 inch by 2 inch piece of earth that I prepared for him and the look they have when you walk up and they know they've been beat. Something only trappers know

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[Four Season Whitetail's]

You will never put a dent in their numbers until you start at the den site.  Then you can make some numbers disappear. Quickly.

[Doc]

One thing that we often forget is that here in New York, Coyotes occupy the top spot on the food chain. Other than humans and disease and the occasional automobile, there is absolutely nothing that keeps the coyote numbers in check. So their numbers can go completely berserk without trappers and hunters actively going after them. That is a unique and unhealthy position for any animal to be in, let alone an efficient killer like coyotes. It's not good for the environment, other critters and eventually for the health and welfare of the coyotes themselves.

[stoneam2006]

You will never put a dent in their numbers until you start at the den site.  Then you can make some numbers disappear. Quickly.

Maybe not dent in numbers but can keep them off a property pretty well. Again never seen populations where they are around ever corner so maybe it's different but around here we keep them on check pretty well

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[Adkhunter1590]

Because I'm too lazy at the moment to search the maze DEC calls its website, does anyone know if its legal to blow up yotes with tannerite? Haha. Seen some videos of it being done and it's looks like a load of fun.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

26 minutes ago, Adkhunter1590 said:

Because I'm too lazy at the moment to search the maze DEC calls its website, does anyone know if its legal to blow up yotes with tannerite? Haha. Seen some videos of it being done and it's looks like a load of fun.

They are still an animal. I couldn't bring myself to do that. 

[grampy]

29 minutes ago, Adkhunter1590 said:

Because I'm too lazy at the moment to search the maze DEC calls its website, does anyone know if its legal to blow up yotes with tannerite? Haha. Seen some videos of it being done and it's looks like a load of fun.

Hunting and trapping them is fine, but blowing them up? IDK. Not for me. But dead is dead, I guess.

[Adkhunter1590]

Hunting and trapping them is fine, but blowing them up? IDK. Not for me. But dead is dead, I guess.

With enough bang, I don't see it as any less humane as a bullet or arrow. I consider it more humane of a death vs leg hold traps that force them to be pinned for hours or days and attempt chewing their own leg off. To me trapping seems more like torture in a way. A tannerite explosion looks to be a quick painless death from the videos I've watched.

[Curmudgeon]

12 hours ago, Steve D said:

 if you like I will be happy to drop a couple off at your door.

It wouldn't do any good. The local yotes would just kill them.

5 hours ago, Doc said:

 there is absolutely nothing that keeps the coyote numbers in check. So their numbers can go completely berserk without trappers and hunters actively going after them.

What about:

• parvo
• mange
• rabies
• distember
• prey base limits
• and, especially, other coyotes

All the research shows that regular hunting does not reduce the coyote population. It just opens territories and increases reproduction. Yes there is a paper out there that says you can get the population down by removing something like 70% of the population each year. Something like that. And, you need to hunt year-round which will never be legal in NYS.

If coyotes are not hunted - by people or wolves - pairs form larger family territories that limit reproduction because they keep others from breeding. Do a google search. There is a ton of science.

This is an emotional thread with little data, evidence or reason. I have been in these arguments with the He-Man Coyote Haters Club members in the past. I ignore some of them. I'll take some time to respond today because the forum regularly gets new members. They need to know that there is science. There is also ethics. Some people think - like Culver Creek - that even predators/competition deserve some respect.

Some coyote haters are motivated by fear. Nothing rational mind you. Bees are certainly more dangerous. The primary reason I see here for members hating coyotes is that they are competition. Which brings us to the next set of questions:

• What is your metric for determining if there are too many coyotes?
• What is your metric for determining if there are too many deer?
• How many of you can determine if there is an overpopulation of deer in an area just by examining the plant makeup of the area? I know of a couple but suspect very few others.

The roughly 30,000 coyotes in the state are failures at controlling the deer population. Thus DEC gives out thousands of DMP tags resulting in more than half the annual 230,000 deer killed by hunters being "antlerless". If the coyotes were more effective, large parts of the state would not be suffering ecological damage from deer, affecting many species of plants and non-game wildlife habitat. Then there are the economic costs of too many deer: ag damage; timber value diminished; horticultural damage; car accidents.

 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

46 minutes ago, Adkhunter1590 said:

Because I'm too lazy at the moment to search the maze DEC calls its website, does anyone know if its legal to blow up yotes with tannerite? Haha. Seen some videos of it being done and it's looks like a load of fun.

Like I said. You want the vermin gone you start at the den. Young is better. Ny state is so fudged up they have no clue the damage those things do in some areas   Other states that have no season have the right idea!

[growalot]

Aahh another year of coyote fencing post...lung here perry there...ect,ect

[Four Season Whitetail's]

2 hours ago, Curmudgeon said:

It wouldn't do any good. The local yotes would just kill them.

What about:

• parvo
• mange
• rabies
• distember
• prey base limits
• and, especially, other coyotes

All the research shows that regular hunting does not reduce the coyote population. It just opens territories and increases reproduction. Yes there is a paper out there that says you can get the population down by removing something like 70% of the population each year. Something like that. And, you need to hunt year-round which will never be legal in NYS.

If coyotes are not hunted - by people or wolves - pairs form larger family territories that limit reproduction because they keep others from breeding. Do a google search. There is a ton of science.

This is an emotional thread with little data, evidence or reason. I have been in these arguments with the He-Man Coyote Haters Club members in the past. I ignore some of them. I'll take some time to respond today because the forum regularly gets new members. They need to know that there is science. There is also ethics. Some people think - like Culver Creek - that even predators/competition deserve some respect.

Some coyote haters are motivated by fear. Nothing rational mind you. Bees are certainly more dangerous. The primary reason I see here for members hating coyotes is that they are competition. Which brings us to the next set of questions:

• What is your metric for determining if there are too many coyotes?
• What is your metric for determining if there are too many deer?
• How many of you can determine if there is an overpopulation of deer in an area just by examining the plant makeup of the area? I know of a couple but suspect very few others.

The roughly 30,000 coyotes in the state are failures at controlling the deer population. Thus DEC gives out thousands of DMP tags resulting in more than half the annual 230,000 deer killed by hunters being "antlerless". If the coyotes were more effective, large parts of the state would not be suffering ecological damage from deer, affecting many species of plants and non-game wildlife habitat. Then there are the economic costs of too many deer: ag damage; timber value diminished; horticultural damage; car accidents.

 

Same stuff different day!  Try killing some and you will see the truth. You kill the local population of young by any means needed along with every adult on sight and you will only have the roamers coming thru and it takes time for them to start over again. You have two choices if you have a real problem. Listen to a clueless state and their laws or take them out right off the nipple!

[Culvercreek hunt club]

15 minutes ago, Adkhunter1590 said:

 

With enough bang, I don't see it as any less humane as a bullet or arrow. I consider it more humane of a death vs leg hold traps that force them to be pinned for hours or days and attempt chewing their own leg off. To me trapping seems more like torture in a way. A tannerite explosion looks to be a quick painless death from the videos I've watched.

 

I am not a trapper but I don't see it as worse or the same as. Traps are checked daily. I can't imagine the whole leg chewing thing takes place in that short of a duration. The difference in a bullet or even an arrow for me is I have a lot higher certainty when in control of the shot. when that stuff blows up you ca't say what is going to happen. I feel confident when I squeeze the trigger that is will be a humane kill. (it doesn't always work out  like that we all know). 

[Adkhunter1590]

I am not a trapper but I don't see it as worse or the same as. Traps are checked daily. I can't imagine the whole leg chewing thing takes place in that short of a duration. The difference in a bullet or even an arrow for me is I have a lot higher certainty when in control of the shot. when that stuff blows up you ca't say what is going to happen. I feel confident when I squeeze the trigger that is will be a humane kill. (it doesn't always work out  like that we all know). 

Traps are supposed to be checked daily. But we all know there's some out there that don't. I've seen traps with legs in them and nothing more so I know it happens quick sometimes.

As far as not knowing what's gonna happen when you blow them up, idk if there's to much margin for error. If your setup a big enough charge on a cow carcass and wait until they are all close, not much within a 15-20 ft radius is gonna live. And even if you wounded one that was standing off away from the group, is it really any different than guys slinging lead down range like they are kicking off ww3? I've been on enough coyote hunts to see the type of shooting that goes on. There's not many guy out there that can drop a coyote on the move at 100 yards reliably. I've seen as many yotes run off wounded as I have killed.

Another thing to wonder is if an explosion like that would scare the crap out of them and make them want to steer clear of your area. They don't tend to forget such traumatic experiences.

[turkeyfeathers]

Coyotes / fox will not chew their legs off. A muskrat or rabbit may wring off by twisting. Traps are checked daily. Any fox I've ever trapped has been relaxed and sometimes even sleeping. Traps are designed for paw catches and not break bones. A catch above the paw happens sometimes when pan pressure set to high etc. But generally animal is caught across the paw. 

[stoneam2006]

With enough bang, I don't see it as any less humane as a bullet or arrow. I consider it more humane of a death vs leg hold traps that force them to be pinned for hours or days and attempt chewing their own leg off. To me trapping seems more like torture in a way. A tannerite explosion looks to be a quick painless death from the videos I've watched.

If they are sitting more than 24 hrs the person who is checking them is not a trapper (unless crazy circumstance) 99.9 percent of the animals I trap could be set free with very very minimal foot damage. A good trap has multiple swivels in chain to prevent binding as well as being the right size for the animal. Should go trapping with a seasoned trapper your views would change.

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[stoneam2006]

Like I said. You want the vermin gone you start at the den. Young is better. Ny state is so fudged up they have no clue the damage those things do in some areas   Other states that have no season have the right idea!

For someone who is so into letting deer grow your sure fine of shooting baby yotes that if mom isn't around you could probably walk up to. That's insane that you could kill them that small

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[WNYBuckHunter]

11 minutes ago, stoneam2006 said:

 

For someone who is so into letting deer grow your sure fine of shooting baby yotes that if mom isn't around you could probably walk up to. That's insane that you could kill them that small

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In all fairness to the point he is making, he sees them as vermin, same as a mouse or rat in his barn. Its also no different than Curmudgeon saying that he wishes the coyotes would kill off all the fawns in his area.

[stoneam2006]

In all fairness to the point he is making, he sees them as vermin, same as a mouse or rat in his barn. Its also no different than Curmudgeon saying that he wishes the coyotes would kill off all the fawns in his area.

I do get the mindset but don't agree with it or curmudgeons either both have their place in nature and it is part of our jobs to try and control the population in ethical ways without putting them endangered or worse. Shooting babies off their mothers tits is wrong I don't care what animal it is.

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[Culvercreek hunt club]

15 minutes ago, stoneam2006 said:

 

I do get the mindset but don't agree with it or curmudgeons either both have their place in nature and it is part of our jobs to try and control the population in ethical ways without putting them endangered or worse. Shooting babies off their mothers tits is wrong I don't care what animal it is.

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In all fairness in am certain that Curmudgeon's comment was an illustration that mirrors your and my opinions on it. That they all should have some level of respect. I take coyotes when  the opportunity presents itself, without hesitation. I don't hate them for being what they are. They are predators. 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

1 hour ago, stoneam2006 said:

 

For someone who is so into letting deer grow your sure fine of shooting baby yotes that if mom isn't around you could probably walk up to. That's insane that you could kill them that small

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LOL....You get yourself a REAL Yote problem and then we will talk. When you have them killing livestock, Pinning your pets to the back sliding door as they stand in your back yard, Walking up showing teeth while 1 guy is gutting a deer and the other is hold a flashlight, Then you may have a problem. When you can sit in your yard and listen to 3 packs lighting up to each other one 3 corners of a 900 acre chunk of property then you may have a problem. When your land went from the best deer and turkey hunting area for miles around that gets void of about anything in a couple years you may have a problem. When you cant find any kind of small game on your property be it furred or winged you may have a problem. Trust me half the people that talk crap about yotes have never had a real problem and the few that talk smack saying they cant be dealt with are full of it.

Sorry, I dont do what i do for a bunch of useless vermin to reap the bounty. I have no problem taking them out regardless of age.But if it does make ya feel better i can tell ya that when you deal with a den.....They dont suffer a bit.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

27 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

In all fairness in am certain that Curmudgeon's comment was an illustration that mirrors your and my opinions on it. That they all should have some level of respect. I take coyotes when  the opportunity presents itself, without hesitation. I don't hate them for being what they are. They are predators. 

In all fairness i do the same. Every time i get the opportunity.

[growalot]

I find that guys that have absolutely no trouble shooting a wood chuck that may have babies, or stuffing a rather nasty poison smoke bomb in their dens or zapping a red squirrel any time of year or a porcupine  or say a monk parakeet( which BTW can be trained to talk),all that could have babies, funny. They can do this and in the same breath put coyote pups on a pedestal as a inhumane act to kill. It is crazy...they are not your domestic pets,though they enjoy eating them, what makes their babies any more valuable than these others? I also should note coyotes are the only known predator in NYS that will snatch a fetus as it's being born...Yes! I just love the fact I was told what a nut job I was when years ago I talked about this...yet hear we are  with yet another person mentioning it again... Now I'm not into killing any animals babies but if they have become a problem  and a costly problem the best way to rid an area of a problem it to clean house. Now in NYS that can happen while the are still carrying but as others have said they are hard to kill elusive animals. their season is during NYS's worst weather.