.223 for deer how far would you shoot a deer with one ?

[wolc123]

On 11/2/2017 at 8:55 AM, G-Man said:

This is a pa game commission chart but it's close to what your N.Y. deer should be.. If you weigh your deer or use chest measurement ( pulling tape tight) you should get close to this back from your butcher( remember if you destroy a ham or shoulder your gonna get less this is for a clean pass thru lung shot)..if not you may need to find a different butcher!

 

Edited March 12, 2018 by wolc123
Larry asked for it

[Dinsdale]

7 hours ago, G-Man said:

Though this was appropriate here

.

What is thought to be the minimum foot-pounds of energy required to dispatch anything from whitetail deer to moose humanely and ethically?"

The most common figure thrown around when hunters discuss the energy required to ethically kill a whitetail is 1,000 ft.-lb. By this logic, at 1,000 ft.-lb. and above, you're being ethical; your shot becomes questionable when the energy drops below this level. The problem here is that energy isn't what kills an animal, making this line of reasoning nearly irrelevant.

What kills animals is the terminal ballistics of a projectile. This is the tissue disruption and damage to the vital circulatory, neurological, or respiratory system of the animal. As an example, it is more ethical to hit a whitetail with a 225-grain Barnes Expander bullet, which has a mere 600 ft.-lb. of energy at 75 yards, than with a 500-grain solid from a .470 Nitro Express, which has 4,000 ft.-lb. of energy at that range. The superior terminal ballistics of the Barnes bullet will dispatch the whitetail more swiftly than the solid bullet will.

So don't get caught up with trying to achieve a particular level of impact energy with your hunting rounds. Instead, do some research into the terminal ballistics of the round you want to shoot and see whether the impact velocity at the ranges you plan to shoot at will give you the bullet performance you need.

Interesting enough many game departments outside the US class legal firearms by energy for what size game is legal to take with them.......one of the reasons a 375HH is the legal minimum for dangerous game although a 9.3x62 or 9.3x74R are splitting hairs and usually allowed.

On another note I hit an impala(whitetail mature doe size) at 40 yds with a borrowed 470 NE double rifle and a solid and I don't think it could have been any more dead.......right in heart, bang flop. 

[wolc123]

8 minutes ago, Lawdwaz said:

You f orgot to mention the PGC Deer Weight Tape....................

If Treeguy comes up with a reasonably priced scale I will consider that, otherwise I am sticking with the tape measure.

[Doewhacker]

3 minutes ago, wolc123 said:

If Treeguy comes up with a reasonably priced scale I will consider that, otherwise I am sticking with the tape measure.

Just remember the old saying, it’s not the chart that’s wrong, it’s the dope holding the tape measure. 

[stubby68]

11 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Unless you are talking about really short distances I can't agree with that. in round numbers. a bullet traveling a 3200 fps and a deer at 50 yards broadside at 20 mph will cover about a foot and a half in the time it takes for the bullet to get there. (Take Doc's valid point of the up and down out of it for a minute). So if the cross hairs are on the heart and you squeeze off a perfect shot, that is a gut shot deer. I don't see any way around it. Bring it to 25 yards and it's just under 9" (and that is a constant bullet velocity)

With running deer swing gun. Keeping cross hairs on spot you want to hit fallow deer with gun through the trigger pull. With loping deer wait till deer is at high point of lope aim just in front of chest squeeze trigger when you first see Brown enter into scope. Deer will fall into line of bullet and when it lands will crumble to the ground dead. At least that is what I was taught and it always has worked for me.

[chas0218]

17 hours ago, moog5050 said:

I actually just read an article on this yesterday that suggested that faster twist doesn't hurt stabilization of lighter bullets, but definitely helps with heavier.  Much like my arrows, I prefer lobbing in bombs anyways.  lol

I agree with bolt guns and longer barrels but when you're talking AR's/short barrel (less than 18") it makes a big difference. The shorter the barrel the more important that twist rate is. Think about how fast that barrel needs to stabilize that bullet before it leaves out the end. The longer barrels have more time to stabilize making a twist rate for a long barrel less aggressive. The AR barrel I was looking at is 1:7 chambered in .223/5.56 Wylde 18" long, it should shoot a 50 gr. bullet fine but any lighter and it will cause a wobble and have flyers. For a .223 short barrel with 1:8 twist works well but over 60 gr. it's a crap shoot whether it's going to shoot heavier bullets accurately.

[moog5050]

4 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

I agree with bolt guns and longer barrels but when you're talking AR's/short barrel (less than 18") it makes a big difference. The shorter the barrel the more important that twist rate is. Think about how fast that barrel needs to stabilize that bullet before it leaves out the end. The longer barrels have more time to stabilize making a twist rate for a long barrel less aggressive. The AR barrel I was looking at is 1:7 chambered in .223/5.56 Wylde 18" long, it should shoot a 50 gr. bullet fine but any lighter and it will cause a wobble and have flyers. For a .223 short barrel with 1:8 twist works well but over 60 gr. it's a crap shoot whether it's going to shoot heavier bullets accurately.

I have to get out and shoot some with the 223 and see what the results are.  I have bullets ranging from 50-64g and two different length barrels (short 18 and long 24) both 1/8.  I will report back if the weather ever breaks.  lol

[WNYBuckHunter]

5 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

I agree with bolt guns and longer barrels but when you're talking AR's/short barrel (less than 18") it makes a big difference. The shorter the barrel the more important that twist rate is. Think about how fast that barrel needs to stabilize that bullet before it leaves out the end. The longer barrels have more time to stabilize making a twist rate for a long barrel less aggressive. The AR barrel I was looking at is 1:7 chambered in .223/5.56 Wylde 18" long, it should shoot a 50 gr. bullet fine but any lighter and it will cause a wobble and have flyers. For a .223 short barrel with 1:8 twist works well but over 60 gr. it's a crap shoot whether it's going to shoot heavier bullets accurately.

In my experience, you have it backwards. That 1:7 twist barrel is going to like something around the 62 grain mark, the 1:8 might like a 55. 1:7 spins it faster than the 1:8

[chas0218]

18 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

In my experience, you have it backwards. That 1:7 twist barrel is going to like something around the 62 grain mark, the 1:8 might like a 55. 1:7 spins it faster than the 1:8

I know the 1:7 for heavier barrels but I couldn't remember if it would stabilize a 50gr. bullet. I was thinking it was 50gr. or 55gr. the lightest I load is 55gr. for my .222 bolt so that will be the lightest I load for the .223. I should be okay still with the 1:7, I'm buying it to shoot 70 gr. bullets as my hunting ranges won't be over 200 yards and that 70 gr. bullet will drop any smaller game in its tracks. If it doesn't shoot what I want I'll just get another upper. I was thinking the .224 valkyrie with 22" barrel maybe 20". They recommend a 24" barrel to get the ballistics they are claiming but that is just too long for my liking. Maybe make it a dedicated varmit gun. There are just too many options!

[Robhuntandfish]

47 minutes ago, moog5050 said:

I have to get out and shoot some with the 223 and see what the results are.  I have bullets ranging from 50-64g and two different length barrels (short 18 and long 24) both 1/8.  I will report back if the weather ever breaks.  lol

we are in the same boat!  waiting to get out and shoot a new gun!  its a damn itch I cant scratch! 

[dbHunterNY]

On 3/11/2018 at 8:47 PM, The Jerkman said:

Here's a comparison for you. And here is a deer shot with a .458 socom. Case closed

You Can't Beat My Meat!!!
 

you'd fit right in with my inner circle for deer hunting.  i use a 30-06 and they say at least to use the heaviest bullet for it.  i shake my head at times.

[Marion]

you'd fit right in with my inner circle for deer hunting.  i use a 30-06 and they say at least to use the heaviest bullet for it.  i shake my head at times.

Lol. I love my 300wby shooting 180 grain barnes tsx pills. But I am in the process of a .458 socom for the hell of it, because why not?

You Can't Beat My Meat!!!

[dbHunterNY]

7 minutes ago, The Jerkman said:

Lol. I love my 300wby shooting 180 grain barnes tsx pills. But I am in the process of a .458 socom for the hell of it, because why not?

You Can't Beat My Meat!!!
 

they'd think a 458 socom AR was just silly. they're more traditional. most use a 45-70 with 300+ gr. one is trying to get more reach.  been messing around with a 338-06 and is now contemplating 375HH for some reason.  i've used 300 win mag 180gr bullets on woodchucks and varmints and not far away. i've figured out a plain old '06 works just fine and saves money per pull.

[Marion]

they'd think a 458 socom AR was just silly. they're more traditional. most use a 45-70 with 300+ gr. one is trying to get more reach.  been messing around with a 338-06 and is now contemplating 375HH for some reason.  i've used 300 win mag 180gr bullets on woodchucks and varmints and not far away. i've figured out a plain old '06 works just fine and saves money per pull.

Well now they are getting near dangerous game cartridges. They are deer, not elephants

You Can't Beat My Meat!!!

[chas0218]

29 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

you'd fit right in with my inner circle for deer hunting.  i use a 30-06 and they say at least to use the heaviest bullet for it.  i shake my head at times.

 

19 minutes ago, The Jerkman said:

Lol. I love my 300wby shooting 180 grain barnes tsx pills. But I am in the process of a .458 socom for the hell of it, because why not?

You Can't Beat My Meat!!!
 

And here is a hole from my .270 winchester at 85 yards, not that impressive from that .458 that is almost double the size of my little .270 win.

[Marion]

And here is a hole from my .270 winchester at 85 yards, not that impressive from that .458 that is almost double the size of my little .270 win.

Thats a nice hole. Also ribs are much less fleshy than a neck shot so one would imagine an area with more meat would have a bigger hole

You Can't Beat My Meat!!!

[Marion]

And here is a hole from my .270 winchester at 85 yards, not that impressive from that .458 that is almost double the size of my little .270 win.

Thats a nice hole. Also ribs are much less fleshy than a neck shot so one would imagine an area with more meat would have a bigger hole

You Can't Beat My Meat!!!

[chas0218]

4 minutes ago, The Jerkman said:

Thats a nice hole. Also ribs are much less fleshy than a neck shot so one would imagine an area with more meat would have a bigger hole

You Can't Beat My Meat!!!
 

Ok here is another., again .270 win. 91 yards.

Edited March 13, 2018 by chas0218

[dbHunterNY]

5 minutes ago, The Jerkman said:

Well now they are getting near dangerous game cartridges. They are deer, not elephants

You Can't Beat My Meat!!!
 

i actually have a good track record with a 150gr Federal Fusion 30-06 round.  i'm with ya.  apparently 200+ lb bucks and 120-150 lb management doe are wild fire breathing beasts of legend.  a large portion of it is them hunting in lush thick deer habitat and trying to beat the reality that no gun can truely conquer brush.

[Marion]

Ok here is another., again .270 win. 91 yards.

You love those neck shots don't you? I'm not arguing with you on the .458 being better than your .270. It all depends on round. I love my .300 Weatherby which is still smaller than. 458 but it moves laser fast and hits immensely hard. The key is the right heavy bullet and enough expansion.

You Can't Beat My Meat!!!

[dbHunterNY]

not a fan any shot other than through the rib cage. too much wasted meat with a hit to the neck or square on the shoulder with any round considered for deer.

[WNYBuckHunter]

11 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

i actually have a good track record with a 150gr Federal Fusion 30-06 round.  i'm with ya.  apparently 200+ lb bucks and 120-150 lb management doe are wild fire breathing beasts of legend.  a large portion of it is them hunting in lush thick deer habitat and trying to beat the reality that no gun can truely conquer brush.

Ahhh, the old fairy tale of the brush gun....

[chas0218]

3 minutes ago, The Jerkman said:

You love those neck shots don't you? I'm not arguing with you on the .458 being better than your .270. It all depends on round. I love my .300 Weatherby which is still smaller than. 458 but it moves laser fast and hits immensely hard. The key is the right heavy bullet and enough expansion.

You Can't Beat My Meat!!!
 

I'm not arguing either, I know the .458 is B.A. I'm just showing that all cartridges can react different. I will gaurantee that the .458 will definitely have better weight retention than those shots did. Both had around 80% retention and both hit bone, the first one blew out the spine nothing but muscle attaching the head still. I like neck shots they don't go anywhere DRT kind of results. Both are Nosler 130gr. ballistic tip. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

2 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

not a fan any shot other than through the rib cage. too much wasted meat with a hit to the neck or square on the shoulder with any round considered for deer.

If you are trimming properly, theres only 5 or 6 lbs of meat on the front shoulders anyhow.

[chas0218]

8 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

not a fan any shot other than through the rib cage. too much wasted meat with a hit to the neck or square on the shoulder with any round considered for deer.

I don't keep much of the neck as it is. Most of the time it just all goes to burger. With rib cage shots you have to wait until the deer is perfectly broadside before taking the shot and that doesn't generally happen so you end up ruining more meat in the shoulder and chest. The one shot I showed in the chest wasn't where I was aiming, I usually hold just under the chin but it was a steep downhill angle for me in the tree with the deer looking up. I also keep the rib meat on larger deer, and shanks get ground.

Edited March 13, 2018 by chas0218