Gun Ownership Up & Violent Crime Down per FBI

[WNYBuckHunter]

ahhhh, gottcha.

[Doc]

For all of our members who are fans of gun laws and who seem to have never seen a gun restriction that they didn't love, here is an up-coming law that has already made it through the New York State Assembly. I'm speaking of the so-called "microstamping bill". Apparently here is the latest brainchild of the NYS anti-gun forces that require all new semi-auto handguns to carry a new technology called microstamping that would imprint the make, model, and serial number onto the cartridge case when the gun is fired. Sounds pretty slick eh? The only problem is that it can be foiled by anyone replacing a few small parts with common tools. Hey maybe another new cottage industry for NY's economy .... lol. In the meantime, the cost additions to firearms will be significant, and likely result in manufacturers not selling new handguns in New York State at all. That result is surely the prime reason for the new law being peddled by all these gun-hating Democrats.

The good news is that the law will have a bit more of a problem getting through the Republican controlled Senate..... not impossible, but a bit more of a problem.

So is this yet another of the beloved "common sense" gun laws that our resident gun-control advocates are so in love with. Does this fall in line with what will make you sleep better at night. A law that is easily thwarted, but perhaps will shut off the sale of new handguns in the state and assuredly raise the cost of new handgun ownership for every law abiding person in the state? This is just another move to harrass legitimate gun owners and push to discourage them from purchasing a new gun ...... obviously the real purpose of the law. Is this the kind of thing you have been defending?

[virgil]

Perhaps the technology can evolve so that the law can't be so easily thwarted.  If the end result is less guns on the street, then it seems like the desired result will have been achieved.

[Mr VJP]

Less guns in the hands of people that should have them, that is.  There is nothing wrong with having a gun, as long as the right people have them.  There is nothing wrong with people getting shot, as long as the right people get shot.

The trouble with these laws is, only the wrong people will have them and the wrong people wind up getting shot.

The anti's prefer that scenario, because it gives them more ammo to come after the rest of your guns.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Perhaps the technology can evolve so that the law can't be so easily thwarted.  If the end result is less guns on the street, then it seems like the desired result will have been achieved.

If as criminal is firing a gun that is stolen, why would they care if the serial number was imprinted on the casing? It won't lead to him. Lead back to the one that originally purchased it......and thye probably already know the gun is stolen if the owner was responsible. I do not see how this process could effect any crime. It could be used in the crime of passion type, but how much of that is really out there. I don't see it being the majority of gun crime.

[Doc]

Perhaps the technology can evolve so that the law can't be so easily thwarted.  If the end result is less guns on the street, then it seems like the desired result will have been achieved.

You mean "if the end result is less guns anywhere the desired result will have been achieved" don't you? I mean that is the usual mentality when it comes to gun law fanatics. That really is the purpose and motives behind the gun control advocates ...... simply get rid of those evil guns by any means possible. And if it requires ridiculous, costly, mandated technology to get to that end, then so be it. Whatever it takes. And this latest example points that motivation out perfectly.

[virgil]

You mean "if the end result is less guns anywhere the desired result will have been achieved" don't you? I mean that is the usual mentality when it comes to gun law fanatics. That really is the purpose and motives behind the gun control advocates ...... simply get rid of those evil guns by any means possible. And if it requires ridiculous, costly, mandated technology to get to that end, then so be it. Whatever it takes. And this latest example points that motivation out perfectly.

No, I wrote what I meant, thanks.  Not sure who you're referring to when you use the term 'gun law fanatics'.  If the existing technology is not good enough to make the proposed law effective, then the technology needs to be advanced; and other control measures need to be enacted.  Either way, the solution to the problem is not to just keep our heads in the sand and make believe that there are no problems with guns in this country.  Plenty of people get busted for speeding- nobody has proposed doing away with traffic laws, have they?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

If the existing technology is not good enough to make the proposed law effective, then the technology needs to be advanced; and other control measures need to be enacted.  Either way, the solution to the problem

effective......effective....effective at doing what is the question. Do you see it reducing gun violence? I can't imagine it doing that at all.

Control measures you speak of......any  ideas on those. I can't see the value of these types of controls in reducing the illegal guns in the hands of the criminals. They only impact law abiding folks. Is the revolver any less deadly or harder to use that the semi's are singled out?

When you say solution to the "problem" I assume you mean gun violence. the problem is nad never has been the guns. It is the criminals using them. Unfortunately the types that want more of these gun laws are the same ones that want to hold hands and think their good thoughts will rehabilitate these criminals. The solultion to this "problem" is thougher laws....and I mean tougher...ones that are a true deterrant...like death

[virgil]

effective......effective....effective at doing what is the question. Do you see it reducing gun violence? I can't imagine it doing that at all.

Control measures you speak of......any  ideas on those. I can't see the value of these types of controls in reducing the illegal guns in the hands of the criminals. They only impact law abiding folks. Is the revolver any less deadly or harder to use that the semi's are singled out?

When you say solution to the "problem" I assume you mean gun violence. the problem is nad never has been the guns. It is the criminals using them. Unfortunately the types that want more of these gun laws are the same ones that want to hold hands and think their good thoughts will rehabilitate these criminals. The solultion to this "problem" is thougher laws....and I mean tougher...ones that are a true deterrant...like death

By 'effective', I mean reducing gun violence and gun-related crime.  It doesn't seem like such a stretch to assume that less guns in circulation would ultimately lead to lower gun-related crime and gun violence.

As far as control measures, I'll leave that up to the gun experts.  I've never made believe I have the answer to the problem- I just feel strongly that the solution is not to ignore the problem simply because I own guns and enjoy using them.

I agree with you that punishments for crime in general need to be stiffer.  But, since the fact remains that even the death penalty(and I'm a firm supporter of the death penalty) has already been proven to be wholly ineffective as a deterrant to violent crime, that comparison doesn't hold any water as a means of dealing with the issue. 

[steve863]

I will agree that the death penalty will never be a deterrent to violent crime.  Humans have been executing criminals since the beginning of time, has violent crime ceased??  No way.

As far as guns AND violence, I honestly think it's only those completely brainwashed by the NRA that believe that there is NO correlation between the two in todays society.  I don't think it's by accident that we have more guns in private ownership in this country than any civilized nation and also the highest gun crime rate.  I have said it 1000 times before, it is a hell of a lot easier killing someone with a gun than it is any other way.  Yeah sure, guns or no guns, violent crime will NEVER cease completely, but NO one will ever convince me that the ease of availability of guns in this country doesn't account for a good many murders that probably wouldn't have happened if not for this ease either.  And before someone jumps in to point out Switzerlands high private ownership and low crime rates, maybe they should study up how everyone there is highly trained in gun use and it's not like they could buy a trunk full of guns from a gun show with no questions asked like we can in this country.  It's a whole different mindset than we have here, that is for sure.  A mindset that  the typical NRA type would surely sqwaulk about if they were subjected to it here.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Steve ad Virgil,

I need someone to explain to me, because I obviously am very dense, how any of these laws are keeping the guns out of the hands of the criminals. Micro stamping-----how?

9 month wait on a pistol permit-----How?

High capacity clips-----How?

I can agree with back ground checks as I have said before and I can see how that would work towards the goal we are talking about but not the majority of the other laws. If you think we have way too many guns in this country, why not just shut the manufacturers down or take teh route they did with the tabacco companies and tax them out of the average mans ability to afford them. Do you honestly think even thse measures would remove the guns from the criminals hands? I don't ...they would for you and me though.

As far as the death penality goes....it has never been done right. It isn't swift enough and the prisons are no deterrant either. Make the cells a box and not perks. food goes in and a drain in the middle. They want to act like animals....they can be housed like animals

[virgil]

I need someone to explain to me, because I obviously am very dense, how any of these laws are keeping the guns out of the hands of the criminals. Micro stamping-----how?

9 month wait on a pistol permit-----How?

High capacity clips-----How?

I can agree with back ground checks as I have said before and I can see how that would work towards the goal we are talking about but not the majority of the other laws. If you think we have way too many guns in this country, why not just shut the manufacturers down or take teh route they did with the tabacco companies and tax them out of the average mans ability to afford them. Do you honestly think even thse measures would remove the guns from the criminals hands? I don't ...they would for you and me though.

As far as the death penality goes....it has never been done right. It isn't swift enough and the prisons are no deterrant either. Make the cells a box and not perks. food goes in and a drain in the middle. They want to act like animals....they can be housed like animals

Cigarettes are/were one of, if not the, biggest threat/scourge on our society.  Was it by accident or some kind of Freudian slip that you used it as a comparison to the gun problem.  By the way, cigarette use has gone down significantly over the past few years.  So, this method may actually be working.  It's an interesting comparison- a dangerous product protected by a giant lobby.

Also, as far as your idea for the prison system- I agree on principle.  But, for all of you who like to use the Consititution to make your argument against gun control, isn't there something in there about cruel and unusual punishment?

[Dave]

Some of these reply's are cruel and unusual punishment to say the least. No matter what laws are passed the criminals will bypass them that's why they are called criminals. So any laws passed will only affect law biding citizens.

Dave

[virgil]

Some of these reply's are cruel and unusual punishment to say the least. No matter what laws are passed the criminals will bypass them that's why they are called criminals. So any laws passed will only affect law biding citizens.

...and some of them are a waste of space. 

So, then, what's the solution?  Should we have no laws whatesoever?  Do we apply this logic, or lack thereof, to other issues- like drugs, speeding, etc?  Should we legalize heroin and speeding since some people are going to drive too fast or use drugs anyway?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Some of these reply's are cruel and unusual punishment to say the least. No matter what laws are passed the criminals will bypass them that's why they are called criminals. So any laws passed will only affect law biding citizens.

...and some of them are a waste of space. 

So, then, what's the solution?  Should we have no laws whatesoever?  Do we apply this logic, or lack thereof, to other issues- like drugs, speeding, etc?  Should we legalize heroin and speeding since some people are going to drive too fast or use drugs anyway?

No...It seems pretty silly to limit or take away the option of a patient to utilize morphine in a legal way becuse there is illegal use of the drug

[virgil]

No...It seems pretty silly to limit or take away the option of a patient to utilize morphine in a legal way becuse there is illegal use of the drug

Nice try- heroin and opium are not the same thing.  They are both derivatives of opium.  But, heroin is much stronger and much more dangerous.  That is why heroin is illegal and opium is legal, but regulated.  This is another silly attempt to cause confusion/make a point.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Virgil, The premise is still the same it doesn't matter the drug we are discussing. Pick any of the highly abused and illegally sold prescription drugs. We are talkign about a legal item being used for an illegal purpose and and coming down and restricting the legal uses rather than the problem......the illegal users

[steve863]

Steve ad Virgil,

I need someone to explain to me, because I obviously am very dense, how any of these laws are keeping the guns out of the hands of the criminals. Micro stamping-----how?

9 month wait on a pistol permit-----How?

High capacity clips-----How?

You are right, these laws will do little.  What we need is some sort of uniform nationwide system in transferring guns whether they are being bought and sold from dealers or in private sales.  You guys keep saying that criminals get guns illegally which holds little water when ALL guns leave Ruger, S&W, Glock, etc LEGALLY.  The difference to what is legal and illegal in this country as far as guns are concerned is blurry at best.  If you buy a gun from a dealer you need to go thru a background check, while tomorrow you can sell it to anyone you want, with NO questions asked in many cases.  This is obviously where the breakdown is occurring.  If all guns enter the market legally, how and why are they ending up in criminals hands??  Maybe some get stolen, but that surely is not how most criminals get them.  It sure seems to me that many of these "legal" purchasers are in one way or another putting "legally" bought guns in criminals hands.  I don't know why some of you can't see what is happening here?  If criminals don't buy guns like the rest of us do, than we need to think about exactly how the guns did end up in their hands.  The problem in my opinion is that many of you just can't accept that many of us "legal" and law-abiding gun purchasers may not be such upstanding citizens that we think we are since criminals end up getting the guns from us.  Like I said it's not like Ruger, S&W or Glock, opens up it's back doors and sell them directly to criminals to pass around to each other.  All that is needed here is some honest analysis of how things transpire, and you will get the picture.  No, there will never be any gun law to solve all the problems here, but I don't believe eliminating laws will make things better either.  That in my opinion is the ultimate wishful thinking.

[Dave]

The problem in my opinion is that many of you just can't accept that  many of us "legal" and law-abiding gun purchasers may not be such  upstanding citizens that we think we are since criminals end up getting  the guns from us

Your assuming a lot with that statement, that law abiding citizens supply criminals with guns. Do you think that's how most criminals get guns? How about from other criminals. How about guns smuggled from other countries, south of the border. Haven't read any headlines "Law abiding citizen sells guns to criminals" Now that you have made the statement back it up with more than guessing where criminals get guns.  Just the facts please.  Very lame explanation on your part blaming the problem on law abiding citizens. Lets lay the blame where it belongs with the criminals, period!!!

Dave

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I can agree with you on that post. I am not against a regulation because it is a regulation....I am against BS ones that do nothing to solve the problem and just hamper the ones of us that do it the right way. I would love to see a national card (kind of a national background check) and a national pistol permit. You want to buy one of my guns Steve....show me your valid card and we are good to go. I am not too keen on the Govt keeping a listing of all the guns I have though so that would hae to be worked out. We all saw where that information got us with the FOIL of the New Your Pistol Permit Holder list.

[nyantler]

Steve ad Virgil,

I need someone to explain to me, because I obviously am very dense, how any of these laws are keeping the guns out of the hands of the criminals. Micro stamping-----how?

9 month wait on a pistol permit-----How?

High capacity clips-----How?

You are right, these laws will do little.  What we need is some sort of uniform nationwide system in transferring guns whether they are being bought and sold from dealers or in private sales.  You guys keep saying that criminals get guns illegally which holds little water when ALL guns leave Ruger, S&W, Glock, etc LEGALLY.  The difference to what is legal and illegal in this country as far as guns are concerned is blurry at best.  If you buy a gun from a dealer you need to go thru a background check, while tomorrow you can sell it to anyone you want, with NO questions asked in many cases.  This is obviously where the breakdown is occurring.  If all guns enter the market legally, how and why are they ending up in criminals hands??  Maybe some get stolen, but that surely is not how most criminals get them.  It sure seems to me that many of these "legal" purchasers are in one way or another putting "legally" bought guns in criminals hands.  I don't know why some of you can't see what is happening here?  If criminals don't buy guns like the rest of us do, than we need to think about exactly how the guns did end up in their hands.  The problem in my opinion is that many of you just can't accept that many of us "legal" and law-abiding gun purchasers may not be such upstanding citizens that we think we are since criminals end up getting the guns from us.  Like I said it's not like Ruger, S&W or Glock, opens up it's back doors and sell them directly to criminals to pass around to each other.  All that is needed here is some honest analysis of how things transpire, and you will get the picture.  No, there will never be any gun law to solve all the problems here, but I don't believe eliminating laws will make things better either.  That in my opinion is the ultimate wishful thinking.

Guns get in the hands of criminals the same way liquor got in the hands of people during prohabition... criminals seem to have a knack for getting what they want and getting around the laws ALWAYS. Not one gun law created has ever stopped criminals from getting guns or stopped people from getting shot by criminals... find me one that does and I'll be all for it.. Even if our government banned gun purchases all together and made it totally illegal to own, buy, sell or possess a gun... criminals would still have guns.. the only people that wouldn't have them are law abiding citizens.. similar to heroine.. which is entirely illegal to buy, sell, own, or possess yet somehow with all the laws people still seem to be able to get it... funny too.. because we don't produce any of the heroine here in America either... and how things transpire has nothing to do with laws imposed on legal law abiding citizens... if you really look at how things transpire you certainly will get the picture... gun laws don't do anything to stop what they have been touted to stop or slow down...GUN CRIME its all BS and nothing could be more obvious... if you think different... just look at Washington DC with the harshest gun laws in the country... and the highest gun crime rate anywhere in America... yeah.. the laws seem to be doing great there :

[steve863]

The problem in my opinion is that many of you just can't accept that  many of us "legal" and law-abiding gun purchasers may not be such  upstanding citizens that we think we are since criminals end up getting  the guns from us

Your assuming a lot with that statement, that law abiding citizens supply criminals with guns. Do you think that's how most criminals get guns? How about from other criminals. How about guns smuggled from other countries, south of the border. Haven't read any headlines "Law abiding citizen sells guns to criminals" Now that you have made the statement back it up with more than guessing where criminals get guns.  Just the facts please.  Very lame explanation on your part blaming the problem on law abiding citizens. Lets lay the blame where it belongs with the criminals, period!!!

Dave

Please, south of the border?? LOL Like there isn't enough guns in this country to supply criminals?  You haven't read that "law abiding citizen sells guns to criminals", because the trail on a gun disappears after the first legal purchase from a dealer in most cases.  If every gun transaction had to be filed be it from a dealer or private sale, you would NO doubt see how many legal guns are ending up in criminal hands.  We have a loose bunch of laws and no two states with the same laws, thus you don't hear about these sales.  Like I said before the gun manufacturers put ALL guns on the market legally, what happens afterwards is pretty much a free for all with our current gun laws that are in most cases worthless.

[steve863]

Steve ad Virgil,

I need someone to explain to me, because I obviously am very dense, how any of these laws are keeping the guns out of the hands of the criminals. Micro stamping-----how?

9 month wait on a pistol permit-----How?

High capacity clips-----How?

You are right, these laws will do little.  What we need is some sort of uniform nationwide system in transferring guns whether they are being bought and sold from dealers or in private sales.  You guys keep saying that criminals get guns illegally which holds little water when ALL guns leave Ruger, S&W, Glock, etc LEGALLY.  The difference to what is legal and illegal in this country as far as guns are concerned is blurry at best.  If you buy a gun from a dealer you need to go thru a background check, while tomorrow you can sell it to anyone you want, with NO questions asked in many cases.  This is obviously where the breakdown is occurring.  If all guns enter the market legally, how and why are they ending up in criminals hands??  Maybe some get stolen, but that surely is not how most criminals get them.  It sure seems to me that many of these "legal" purchasers are in one way or another putting "legally" bought guns in criminals hands.  I don't know why some of you can't see what is happening here?  If criminals don't buy guns like the rest of us do, than we need to think about exactly how the guns did end up in their hands.  The problem in my opinion is that many of you just can't accept that many of us "legal" and law-abiding gun purchasers may not be such upstanding citizens that we think we are since criminals end up getting the guns from us.  Like I said it's not like Ruger, S&W or Glock, opens up it's back doors and sell them directly to criminals to pass around to each other.  All that is needed here is some honest analysis of how things transpire, and you will get the picture.  No, there will never be any gun law to solve all the problems here, but I don't believe eliminating laws will make things better either.  That in my opinion is the ultimate wishful thinking.

Guns get in the hands of criminals the same way liquor got in the hands of people during prohabition... criminals seem to have a knack for getting what they want and getting around the laws ALWAYS. Not one gun law created has ever stopped criminals from getting guns or stopped people from getting shot by criminals... find me one that does and I'll be all for it.. Even if our government banned gun purchases all together and made it totally illegal to own, buy, sell or possess a gun... criminals would still have guns.. the only people that wouldn't have them are law abiding citizens.. similar to heroine.. which is entirely illegal to buy, sell, own, or possess yet somehow with all the laws people still seem to be able to get it... funny too.. because we don't produce any of the heroine here in America either... and how things transpire has nothing to do with laws imposed on legal law abiding citizens... if you really look at how things transpire you certainly will get the picture... gun laws don't do anything to stop what they have been touted to stop or slow down...GUN CRIME its all BS and nothing could be more obvious... if you think different... just look at Washington DC with the harshest gun laws in the country... and the highest gun crime rate anywhere in America... yeah.. the laws seem to be doing great there :

That's the best response you could come up with??  Why don't you address the issue that ALL guns leave the manufacturing plants legally, yet end up in criminals hands anyway??  Bringing up liquor during prohibition is a lame comparison.  Lets keep this to the subject at hand.  And by the way, not that I agree with Washington DC's gun law, but it actually DOES work.  It's the bordering states that have loose gun laws that help funnel the guns in, not the strict one in Washington.

[steve863]

I can agree with you on that post. I am not against a regulation because it is a regulation....I am against BS ones that do nothing to solve the problem and just hamper the ones of us that do it the right way. I would love to see a national card (kind of a national background check) and a national pistol permit. You want to buy one of my guns Steve....show me your valid card and we are good to go. I am not too keen on the Govt keeping a listing of all the guns I have though so that would hae to be worked out. We all saw where that information got us with the FOIL of the New Your Pistol Permit Holder list.

Thanks Culver, I have always had the highest respect for your opinions on this forum.  I know we can't be too far apart in our thinking here.  All that is needed is an honest look at what happens to a gun after it leaves the manufacturer and how it can then end up in the wrong hands, that is pretty much it.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Same here. I just wish all the politics , BS and symptom treating could be laid aside. We can put a man on the moon I have to believe there are enough smart folks in this country to take a look and formulate a program that address what is really the problem