Gun Ownership Up & Violent Crime Down per FBI

[virgil]

If somone posts erroneous information as fact and then gets upset when they are proven wrong, they should check their facts.  No gun owner expects all gun owners to think like they do, but they should be able to expect them to be on the side of the 2nd Amendment, self defense and the right of every law abiding individual to own a gun, without unjust and oppressive regulation from the government.  If one is against such gun ownership, they either have an unwarranted fear of guns in general, or do not understand the role guns play in the hands of responsible American citizens.  And through the right of American freedom of association, any gun owner can choose not to associate with anyone, for any reason.

You're all ganging up on Steve for having a different opinion.  many of us are gun owners who don't live in fear of the government and are still quite capable of understanding the 'role that guns play' in society.  it's exactly this 'role' that concerns us.  i think it's funny how you use the term 'facts' so loosely.  most, if not all, of the 'facts' that you quote are laughable.  elmer's link to 'justfacts.com'?  please, this is a well-known right wing propaganda machine with an obvious and clear agenda- not a reliable source for objective information.  'facts' can be agreed upon by both sides in an argument- they are not anecdotes and statistics that can be twisted according to one's personal agenda.  vjp- you're a bully who uses biased opinions and misrepresentations to support your own beliefs and are quick to attack anyone who has a different opinion.  being a gun owner does not require sharing the same antiquated thought processes and beliefs and the lunatic fringe.

[steve863]

You're all ganging up on Steve for having a different opinion. 

Oh, don't you worry there, Virgil, I have NO problem handling any of them.  I obviously struck a nerve with some of these clowns, since they keep calling out my name! LOL 

[fasteddie]

Sheesh , where is Rodney king , when we need him !  ... ... ...

[steve863]

Talk about erroneous information, VJP.  Why don't we go back to your original post in this thread?  I know you are doing your damndest to avoid it.  The article quotes FBI figures showing crime rates going down and then it starts implying that this is due to more firearms being bought by the public.  This was a nice spin by the NRA making gullible people think that the FBI is somehow acknowledging this and promoting private gun ownership in reducing crime.  I have NEVER seen the FBI ever promote gun ownership in reducing crime, be they under republican or democratic leadership in the White House.  As I've said before all sides spin things there own way.  Your original post and the link provided by Elmer are just more examples of this.  If you want to talk about facts, why don't you tell us why only 3-4 million gun owners are NRA members since up to 70 million people own guns in this country?  Are these people just all cheap and don't want to pay the dues, or maybe they don't exactly agree with all the BS the NRA spews??  I would bet it's the latter, which proves that the majority of gun owners out there don't exactly see things the way you think they should. 

[Mr VJP]

I agree.  If they don't belong to the NRA they are either cheap, gullible, naive or just too self absorbed to see what is happening to their rights in this country.  And that isn't just rights affecting ownership of guns, it's all of their rights as well.

To accept many of the gun laws forced upon good citizens of this country, is to accept encroachment on your rights.  Why would anyone give up some of their rights?  Because they are under the mistaken assumption that by doing so the country will be safer and gun owners will be attacked less.  Well, it is quite simple to see that none of these gun laws have ever done anything to make America safer, nor stop further encroachment on gun ownership.

Each gun law that is sucessfully passed simply emboldens the anti's to start working on the next gun law.  As far as objective, unbiased factual sources go, it seems some of you wouldn't know one if it bit you.  If it doesn't conform to your biased opinion on gun control, you reject it as right wing and biased.  There is no hope of changing that type of mentality, and living with your head in the sand will prove to be very expensive in the future.

I don't think the term "bully" is called for either.  I guess you considered your parents to be bullies as well, when they tried to keep you from doing someting stupid and dangerous as a child.  I post on many other hunting and gun sites that cover the entire country.  I only get this type of push back from NY residents on this site.  The Liberal mentality is more pervasive than I thought, and certainly deep seated in the NYC suburbs and surrounding areas of this state.  To see gun owners accepting that mentality is annoying to me.  They should know better than anyone else.

If you are a gun owner that wants to give up your rights in the hope of appeasing your enemies, you just happen to be dead wrong in my opinion.  None of the posts I've put up that would show you the facts have even been addressed.  You ignore them every time you respond.  "More Guns, Less Crime" is not an NRA book.  I dare anyone to challenge it here on this site.  Until you read it and prove it wrong, in my opinion, you are too stubborn to bother with.  The NRA is not a fringe group either.  Gun owners that speak badly of them are ungrateful, uneducated on gun issues and uninformed about politics.

Therefore I will continue to choose my gun and hunting associates from among the intelligent and informed, and shun those folks who I determine to be naive, as well as a liability to the gun rights of all Americans.  And you guys should feel free to avoid the likes of me as well.  We won't miss your company, I assure you.  That's called freedom.  Is this a great country or what?

[steve863]

I agree.  If they don't belong to the NRA they are either cheap, gullible, naive or just too self absorbed to see what is happening to their rights in this country.  And that isn't just rights affecting ownership of guns, it's all of their rights as well.

To accept many of the gun laws forced upon good citizens of this country, is to accept encroachment on your rights.  Why would anyone give up some of their rights?  Because they are under the mistaken assumption that by doing so the country will be safer and gun owners will be attacked less.  Well, it is quite simple to see that none of these gun laws have ever done anything to make America safer, nor stop further encroachment on gun ownership.

Each gun law that is sucessfully passed simply emboldens the anti's to start working on the next gun law.  As far as objective, unbiased factual sources go, it seems some of you wouldn't know one if it bit you.  If it doesn't conform to your biased opinion on gun control, you reject it as right wing and biased.  There is no hope of changing that type of mentality, and living with your head in the sand will prove to be very expensive in the future.

I don't think the term "bully" is called for either.  I guess you considered your parents to be bullies as well, when they tried to keep you from doing someting stupid and dangerous as a child.  I post on many other hunting and gun sites that cover the entire country.  I only get this type of push back from NY residents on this site.  The Liberal mentality is more pervasive than I thought, and certainly deep seated in the NYC suburbs and surrounding areas of this state.  To see gun owners accepting that mentality is annoying to me.  They should know better than anyone else.

If you are a gun owner that wants to give up your rights in the hope of appeasing your enemies, you just happen to be dead wrong in my opinion.  None of the posts I've put up that would show you the facts have even been addressed.  You ignore them every time you respond.  "More Guns, Less Crime" is not an NRA book.  I dare anyone to challenge it here on this site.  Until you read it and prove it wrong, in my opinion, you are too stubborn to bother with.  The NRA is not a fringe group either.  Gun owners that speak badly of them are ungrateful, uneducated on gun issues and uninformed about politics.

Therefore I will continue to choose my gun and hunting associates from among the intelligent and informed, and shun those folks who I determine to be naive, as well as a liability to the gun rights of all Americans.  And you guys should feel free to avoid the likes of me as well.  We won't miss your company, I assure you.  That's called freedom.  Is this a great country or what?

In your prior post you state that you don't expect all gun owners to think alike and now you're posting another essay saying that it's either your way or the highway for those who don't agree with you! LOL  Yeah, this forum ain't like the rest which is a good thing.  If you get more good ole boys agreeing with you in Mississippi than you do here, maybe you should stick to that forum.  It is pretty obvious that NO opinion other than one on the far right is acceptable to you.  You have made that perfectly clear time and time again.  You have even used Barry Goldwater's quote "extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice" a few times here.  Which tells us what?  That you are also and extremist, thus some of us have come to the conclusions about you that we have. 

           

[nyantler]

What am I confused about?  If YOU think the right to carry is what is bringing down crime rates, are you at the same time saying that NICS checks have not been a factor for the better??  Simple question here.  The problem here is that some of you guys can't see things from other peoples perspectives.  You only swallow what the NRA tells you and can't see the legitimate concerns that every day people may have about the ease of which guns can be had in this country.  Not like there has ever been a shortage of gun violence in this country, and NO one will convince me that the number of guns out there hasn't had a direct effect on this.  Look, I own a cabinet full of guns.  I enjoyed hunting and shooting with them over the years.  I don't need the NRA or other fanatics telling me what to believe.  I call it the way I see it, and I can tell you that a good many gun laws are their for a good reason.  Many gun fanatics would love it if ALL gun laws were scrapped.  I for one say BS to that and won't shy away from saying it just because this is a hunting forum where some people will accuse me of being an anti.  They can suck on a lemon for all I care.

NICS checks doesn't keep guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them... the reality is it just keeps criminals from buying a gun over the counter... it absolutely does not keep criminals from getting guns...and does nothing to reduce the gun crime rate... but it is a great way for the government to get a data base of legal, law abiding, gun owners!

[steve863]

NICS checks doesn't keep guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them... the reality is it just keeps criminals from buying a gun over the counter... it absolutely does not keep criminals from getting guns...and does nothing to reduce the gun crime rate... but it is a great way for the government to get a data base of legal, law abiding, gun owners!

So do you think the NICS checks should be scrapped because some don't want to be on any government lists and in your opinion it does nothing to reduce crime? 

[nyantler]

It is not my opinion .. it is fact that NICS checks do nothing to reduce crime... because it does not prevent gun crimes and does not keep criminals from attaining guns... it only slows down the process for getting a gun for law abiding citizens... therefore yes I would be for scraping it... if it in fact prevented criminals from getting guns then I would be all for it... but it doesn't... as a matter of fact.

[steve863]

Just as I said before, if you guys have problems with the NICS checks system you pretty much can't handle any gun law and are just fine with anyone walking into a gun shop and going home with one whether they are up to no good or not.  All I can tell you fellas, is keep dreaming, because we are NOT going back to that any time soon.  Whether the crime rate is actually dropping or not means very little since there are still plenty of murders and most are committed with guns.  Just because you are telling society that you should be trusted with a gun means nothing to the majority of people who can easily accept some measure of assurance in the name of public safety.  Our gun crime rates are astronomical in comparison to any civilized nation, and it would be pretty silly to believe that the easy availability of guns has nothing to do with it.  The NRA can spin numbers any way they want, but this fact needs to be kept in mind in my opinion.

[Dave]

Steve what's your solution as how to purchase guns?  Who gets one who doesn't? There are far more people who die each year and it has nothing to do with guns, how do we regulate that? Over 40 thousand people are killed in auto accidents each year, how do those nuts get a drivers license? We just trust them and they pass a drivers test and they drive, even criminals have a drivers license. In our hospital system hundreds of thousands of people die from mistakes made in hospitals each year. How do we regulate that? To me a life is a life no matter how they die, the pain and suffering for the family is the same , I guess your answer would be more gov't regulations, in my opinion. We trust doctors who make more mistakes that cost lives than those caused by criminals with guns. No easy answers! Where is the public safety or are we only concerned with guns. I know it's a little off the topic, but something to think about. Why regulate the lesser of two evils?

Dave

[Doewhacker]

Dave you do realize that every single thing you listed there is regulated in some way right? And the FBI has a long list of reasons why some one is turned down for a gun through the NIC's process none of which I find argueable. The good thing here is the single best way to change something isn't going to be posting flim flam on the internet, its going to be done by those in charge and by us writing letters or emails and voicing our opinions, what ever they be.

[Dave]

Dave you do realize that every single thing you listed there is regulated in some way right? And the FBI has a long list of reasons why some one is turned down for a gun through the NIC's process none of which I find argueable. The good thing here is the single best way to change something isn't going to be posting flim flam on the internet, its going to be done by those in charge and by us writing letters or emails and voicing our opinions, what ever they be.

No objections from me. So even with regulations we still have problems , so what's the solution? Maybe it's not the regulations but the enforcement.

Dave

[Doewhacker]

I agree they can make all of the rules they want, its getting them enforced and carried out effectively that is the hard part. A prime example was that Jared Laughner guy in Arizona, plenty of people knew he was nuts but the dots were never connected. No amount of control did anything to stop that guy because the system didn't work. But I'm not in any way saying that we should scrap the whole system, maybe just work on using whats there is a better idea.

[steve863]

Dave, I surely never said that there would be no more gun crime even with the most stringent of regulations.  Sure people die in auto accidents, but do we not want to license or test new drivers at all?  Would that help the situation any?  Sure people die due to medical mistakes, but do we not want to educate, test and license doctors, nurses, and other medical practitioners? Would that help the situation?  In the case of guns any idiot can buy a gun and he don't even need to know which end the bullet comes out of.  I at least want to know that the purchaser of the gun is not someone who has a criminal past thus NICS checks are a good thing.  Your comparing cars and medical mistakes holds little water actually in the discussion of guns. Cars were made for transportation purposes, doctors and nurses are there primarily to treat sick people.  What were guns originally developed for?  Please don't tell me that killing something wasn't one of the main reasons for it's development.  That is the difference here.

[Dave]

Dave, I surely never said that there would be no more gun crime even with the most stringent of regulations.  Sure people die in auto accidents, but do we not want to license or test new drivers at all?  Would that help the situation any?  Sure people die due to medical mistakes, but do we not want to educate, test and license doctors, nurses, and other medical practitioners? Would that help the situation?  In the case of guns any idiot can buy a gun and he don't even need to know which end the bullet comes out of.  I at least want to know that the purchaser of the gun is not someone who has a criminal past thus NICS checks are a good thing.  Your comparing cars and medical mistakes holds little water actually in the discussion of guns. Cars were made for transportation purposes, doctors and nurses are there primarily to treat sick people.  What were guns originally developed for?  Please don't tell me that killing something wasn't one of the main reasons for it's development.  That is the difference here.

As one who has a pistol permit on Long Island it wasn't that easy to get. I have had it since 1975 and back then it took about 8 months to get the permit loaded with restrictions. As a veteran, never arrested no traffic infractions do you think 8 months was a reasonable amount of time to wait or excessive. So I wouldn't say any idiot can purchase a gun in N.Y . Plus when my renewal is up it will cost me $200 to get it renewed if the price hasn't gone up.

Dave

[steve863]

What you had to go thru on LI is not what the vast majority of the rest of the nation had to go thru in getting a legally purchased handgun.  And many guns from the other laxed law places end up in crimes everywhere.  What is needed is uniformity.  It shouldn't have to take 8 months to get a pistol, but it shouldn't be with little to NO questions asked neither.  There lies to brunt of the problem.

[Doc]

Frankly, I doubt there are any places in NYS where pistols are permitted with "little to NO questions asked". I don't think that has been the case anywhere in NY for many decades. So I tend to doubt that that is the "brunt" of any problem here in this state. And frankly I kind of doubt that that is a problem anywhere with any firearm that is legally purchased.

Another thing that is really beginning to rub me the wrong way is the way some on this forum take such glee in badmouthing the various organizations that advocate gun-owner's rights and the NRA in particular. These same people readily admit that they have no problem enjoying the freedoms that have been hard-fought and maintained for them (apparently with zero support from them) while they take some perverse pleasure in trying to convince anyone who will listen that the very organization who has been fighting for those rights is something evil. Apparently they are completely unaware  of the powerful organized  wealthy forces that have been hard at work trying to abolish the 2nd amendment, and eliminate all private ownership of firearms. It takes little imagination to picture what our gun ownership abilities would be if the NRA was not a significant force between us and the Brady bunch. I needn't list off the long numbers of powerful political and media figures past and present who have worked diligently to eliminate private ownership of weapons from our country. Those here who are bent on the destruction of organized gun advocacy (NRA) apparently share a lot of those same views. In case they mistakenly confuse their pseudo-intellectual views with some kind of feigned open mindedness I guess I have to say that I am not impressed. You are simply a part of the same group of anti-gunners that we are all familiar with.

We all have a lot to thank the NRA for, and they still have a lot of work and continuing vigilance and political activism to accomplish in the future. They are not an organization that has outlived its usefulness, and in fact they are even more important and necessary to 2nd amendment protection today and in the future. To sit here and run the organization down is simply doing the anti's work for them. Because organized gun owners is the one thing that frightens anti-gun advocates the most, and they understand that organizations like the NRA are the only ones standing between us and the elimination of firearms in private hands.

So yes, I do find it a bit offensive to read hunter and gun-owner comments that spit out the name of the NRA like they are some kind of allies of criminals. Sorry, but I have a pretty low opinion of those that spew the doctrine of the Schumers, Kennedys, Boxers, Fiensteins, Bradys, and a long list of other private gun ownership enemies and continue to try to destroy the reputation of the one organization that has done more to defend our ability to continue to own firearms. The motives of such people are clear, and they shouldn't be all that surprised to find out that their anti-gun views are quite offensive to many and likely most of the members of this forum.

[jusputtn]

@ Steve863

Its plain & simple that NY's gun laws do little, @ best, to reduce crime.  They merely put additional burdens on us both to our freedom/rights & our wallets.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the NRA one of the biggest .org's out there?  There's a reason for that.  Don't portray the NRA as some headless beast.  I am the NRA along w/ 4 Million (-1  ) other people.

[nyantler]

Just as I said before, if you guys have problems with the NICS checks system you pretty much can't handle any gun law and are just fine with anyone walking into a gun shop and going home with one whether they are up to no good or not.  All I can tell you fellas, is keep dreaming, because we are NOT going back to that any time soon.  Whether the crime rate is actually dropping or not means very little since there are still plenty of murders and most are committed with guns.  Just because you are telling society that you should be trusted with a gun means nothing to the majority of people who can easily accept some measure of assurance in the name of public safety.  Our gun crime rates are astronomical in comparison to any civilized nation, and it would be pretty silly to believe that the easy availability of guns has nothing to do with it.  The NRA can spin numbers any way they want, but this fact needs to be kept in mind in my opinion.

Easy access to guns by criminals has nothing to do with whether or not there is a new gun law passed.. or whether or not there is a NICS check system... meaning that neither is doing anything to reduce the use of guns for crimanal purposes... hence they are unnecessary and only serve to hinder gun purchases for law abiding citizens. Find me a gun law that actually can keep a criminal from ever getting a gun and I'll be all for it... one does not exist because criminals do not buy their guns legally.

[nyantler]

Frankly, I doubt there are any places in NYS where pistols are permitted with "little to NO questions asked". I don't think that has been the case anywhere in NY for many decades. So I tend to doubt that that is the "brunt" of any problem here in this state. And frankly I kind of doubt that that is a problem anywhere with any firearm that is legally purchased.

Another thing that is really beginning to rub me the wrong way is the way some on this forum take such glee in badmouthing the various organizations that advocate gun-owner's rights and the NRA in particular. These same people readily admit that they have no problem enjoying the freedoms that have been hard-fought and maintained for them (apparently with zero support from them) while they take some perverse pleasure in trying to convince anyone who will listen that the very organization who has been fighting for those rights is something evil. Apparently they are completely unaware  of the powerful organized  wealthy forces that have been hard at work trying to abolish the 2nd amendment, and eliminate all private ownership of firearms. It takes little imagination to picture what our gun ownership abilities would be if the NRA was not a significant force between us and the Brady bunch. I needn't list off the long numbers of powerful political and media figures past and present who have worked diligently to eliminate private ownership of weapons from our country. Those here who are bent on the destruction of organized gun advocacy (NRA) apparently share a lot of those same views. In case they mistakenly confuse their pseudo-intellectual views with some kind of feigned open mindedness I guess I have to say that I am not impressed. You are simply a part of the same group of anti-gunners that we are all familiar with.

We all have a lot to thank the NRA for, and they still have a lot of work and continuing vigilance and political activism to accomplish in the future. They are not an organization that has outlived its usefulness, and in fact they are even more important and necessary to 2nd amendment protection today and in the future. To sit here and run the organization down is simply doing the anti's work for them. Because organized gun owners is the one thing that frightens anti-gun advocates the most, and they understand that organizations like the NRA are the only ones standing between us and the elimination of firearms in private hands.

So yes, I do find it a bit offensive to read hunter and gun-owner comments that spit out the name of the NRA like they are some kind of allies of criminals. Sorry, but I have a pretty low opinion of those that spew the doctrine of the Schumers, Kennedys, Boxers, Fiensteins, Bradys, and a long list of other private gun ownership enemies and continue to try to destroy the reputation of the one organization that has done more to defend our ability to continue to own firearms. The motives of such people are clear, and they shouldn't be all that surprised to find out that their anti-gun views are quite offensive to many and likely most of the members of this forum.

Well said Doc.

[Dave]

Frankly, I doubt there are any places in NYS where pistols are permitted with "little to NO questions asked". I don't think that has been the case anywhere in NY for many decades. So I tend to doubt that that is the "brunt" of any problem here in this state. And frankly I kind of doubt that that is a problem anywhere with any firearm that is legally purchased.

Another thing that is really beginning to rub me the wrong way is the way some on this forum take such glee in badmouthing the various organizations that advocate gun-owner's rights and the NRA in particular. These same people readily admit that they have no problem enjoying the freedoms that have been hard-fought and maintained for them (apparently with zero support from them) while they take some perverse pleasure in trying to convince anyone who will listen that the very organization who has been fighting for those rights is something evil. Apparently they are completely unaware  of the powerful organized  wealthy forces that have been hard at work trying to abolish the 2nd amendment, and eliminate all private ownership of firearms. It takes little imagination to picture what our gun ownership abilities would be if the NRA was not a significant force between us and the Brady bunch. I needn't list off the long numbers of powerful political and media figures past and present who have worked diligently to eliminate private ownership of weapons from our country. Those here who are bent on the destruction of organized gun advocacy (NRA) apparently share a lot of those same views. In case they mistakenly confuse their pseudo-intellectual views with some kind of feigned open mindedness I guess I have to say that I am not impressed. You are simply a part of the same group of anti-gunners that we are all familiar with.

We all have a lot to thank the NRA for, and they still have a lot of work and continuing vigilance and political activism to accomplish in the future. They are not an organization that has outlived its usefulness, and in fact they are even more important and necessary to 2nd amendment protection today and in the future. To sit here and run the organization down is simply doing the anti's work for them. Because organized gun owners is the one thing that frightens anti-gun advocates the most, and they understand that organizations like the NRA are the only ones standing between us and the elimination of firearms in private hands.

So yes, I do find it a bit offensive to read hunter and gun-owner comments that spit out the name of the NRA like they are some kind of allies of criminals. Sorry, but I have a pretty low opinion of those that spew the doctrine of the Schumers, Kennedys, Boxers, Fiensteins, Bradys, and a long list of other private gun ownership enemies and continue to try to destroy the reputation of the one organization that has done more to defend our ability to continue to own firearms. The motives of such people are clear, and they shouldn't be all that surprised to find out that their anti-gun views are quite offensive to many and likely most of the members of this forum.

Doc, thanks for that great response in support of the NRA. I had let my membership lapse for the past few years and  thanks to you bringing to light all they do for the 2nd amendment I will be renewing my membership.

Dave

[Doc]

Doc, thanks for that great response in support of the NRA. I had let my membership lapse for the past few years and  thanks to you bringing to light all they do for the 2nd amendment I will be renewing my membership.

Dave

I am happy that my post was able to offset some of the negative remarks that some members on this forum have been pushing onto us. I have always believed that the biggest problem that gunowners and hunters face is their unwillingness to organize or see value in organized defense of our 2nd amendment rights. Such a small percentage of gun-owners really put their money where their mouth is, which makes those who actively campaign here against gun advocacy organizations even more difficult to stomach.

I will admit that I could do a whole lot more as far as active participation in the NRA, but as a very minimum token of support, I believe that membership even by itself, is an effective way to finance the political lobbying, negotiating, and the other activities that the NRA takes on in our behalf. It really requires a tiny amount of money and is a very easy thing to do. In the face of the constant barrage from those that would do away with private ownership of firearms, I as a gunowner, really do appreciate those that are willing to take the simple step of joining and being counted as well as assisting in financing some very necessary activities for safe-guarding our rights, traditions and culture.

[Mr VJP]

And let's not forget the NRA also happens to be the largest advocate for Hunter's Rights in America as well.  It pays to be a member if you are a hunter, even if you don't care about gun ownership rights.

But the two are very much connected.  If the anti hunters ever get hunting banned in this country, your gun rights will be looked upon as outdated, as many anti gunners think the only reason you still have them is so you can go hunting.  That's why they like to push the idea of "Sporting Purposes" when trying to ban certain guns, be they shotgun, rifle or handgun.

The folks that want to control you and your guns are very wll organized and determined.  Unless we are the same, we are going to lose this fight.

That's all this so called "lunatic" has to say about that.

[virgil]

I don't think the term "bully" is called for either.  I guess you considered your parents to be bullies as well, when they tried to keep you from doing someting stupid and dangerous as a child.

Again, your ego and fanatacism lead you to the most absurd statements and comparisons.  Your main problem is that you clearly are incapable of having any respect for any opinion that is not the same as your own. A parent's job is to keep their kids safe and prevent them from doing foolish things- you are noone's parent on this forum and we are all more than capable of forming our own opinions and taking responsibility for our own actions.  You are under the misconception that your opinion is more valid than anyone else's and that anyone whose opinion you disagree with is childish, immature, stupid, etc.