i hear the dec is proposing an oct 1st start to the 2012 season

[growalot]

"they will be shooting at everything that moves".

So where did you read that...for what I said and I believe I MAY have been the only one to bring it up ...is it would be unsafe to have gun hunters ( in experienced at that).... in the woods with camo clad bow hunters and there should be MANDATORY orange

Then here is another thing to consider...the bow hunter that shoots a "trophy Buck....to have it run into the path of a Muzzle loader hunter and shot before it gets a chance to expire from the arrow....Ooohhh not seeing any problems with that for an early ML hunt during bow season :

[erussell]

I still don't see the point even if they put the season right in the middle of summer. I think Hunter numbers are dwindling because access to huntable land is dwindling. If the parents can't get to the quality land then everyone will be crowding into the stateland and more than likely not see anything anyhow. So yeah its great for kids who's parents own land who are going to be hunters anyhow. But how does that fix the problem, we need to recruit fresh blood, kids who more than likely were not going to be hunters also. That is going to require a lot more sacrifice on all of our parts than just throwing a few youth days at it to appease the youth day people. Were going to actually have to take the time to mentor a child  through the whole season. And people with land are going to have to open it up and just bite the bullet no matter how much you dislike the thought of someone else hunting your land. I actually don't think deer hunting is really what you should get children started on anyhow. Squirrles and rabbits and a 410 is much more exciting to start out with  than sitting in the woods for hours and not seeing anything.

[growalot]

And people with land are going to have to open it up and just bite the  bullet no matter how much you dislike the thought of someone else  hunting your land.

That would be a cold day in Hell......I believe I can speak for many...many land owners on that one....We didn't bust our humps and sacrifice and aren't paying high taxes for someone else to use our property....Seriously?! ???

[G-Man]

the early season muzzleloader season would be anterless only and as needed in high deer population areas.... so i don't see some one shhoting a nice buck with an arrow in it before it expires....

[fasteddie]

And people with land are going to have to open it up and just bite the bullet no matter how much you dislike the thought of someone else hunting your land.

No doubt this would cause an uprising by landowners if the Government did something as STUPID as this . Landowners are liable if someone gets hurt on their property . And land owneres are going to be forced to let hunters that they don't want on their property ? That's just plain NUTS !

[WNYBuckHunter]

"they will be shooting at everything that moves".

So where did you read that...for what I said and I believe I MAY have been the only one to bring it up ...is it would be unsafe to have gun hunters ( in experienced at that).... in the woods with camo clad bow hunters and there should be MANDATORY orange

Then here is another thing to consider...the bow hunter that shoots a "trophy Buck....to have it run into the path of a Muzzle loader hunter and shot before it gets a chance to expire from the arrow....Ooohhh not seeing any problems with that for an early ML hunt during bow season :

Stop being so paranoid, I wasnt referring to anything you said. I myself said that it would be silly to have the youth season at the same time as when adults can hunt deer, regardless of what weapon they can use. If its a "youth hunt" then only youths should hunt. Oh, and no, I am not seeing those as issues with an early ML hunt. Sounds like more "youre shooting my deer" nonsense. Of course, I dont hunt a WW2 battlefield like you seem to. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

And people with land are going to have to open it up and just bite the bullet no matter how much you dislike the thought of someone else hunting your land.

No doubt this would cause an uprising by landowners if the Government did something as STUPID as this . Landowners are liable if someone gets hurt on their property . And land owneres are going to be forced to let hunters that they don't want on their property ? That's just plain NUTS !

Dead wrong eddie, as a landowner, you are NOT liable for someone getting hurt on your property. Better check the laws my friend. DEC even has a hand out you can take with you when trying to get permission explaining the law.

Heres the proof for ya....down toward the bottom under "Money and Liability"

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/8371.html

"Q. Is posting required to protect landowners from liability?  A. No. Whether the property is posted or not, the General Obligations  Law protects landowners from liability for non-paying recreationalists  on their property. Because of this protection, recreational liability  lawsuits against rural landowners are uncommon. Recreational activities  covered include: hunting; fishing; organized gleaning (picking);  canoeing; boating; trapping; hiking; cross-country skiing; tobogganing;  sledding; speleological (caving) activities; horseback riding; bicycle  riding; hang gliding; motorized vehicle operation for recreation;  snowmobiling; non-commercial wood cutting or gathering; and dog  training. This protection does not apply in cases of willful or  malicious failure to guard or warn against dangers.

Q. May the owner or lessee charge for hunting, fishing, or trapping on the posted property?

A. Yes, but charging for access removes the liability protection  granted to the landowner by the General Obligations Law. To learn more  about landowner liability see the link for Cornell University's  publication "Recreational Access and Owner Liability" under Links  Leaving DEC's Website in the right hand column at the top of this page."

[WNYBuckHunter]

And people with land are going to have to open it up and just bite the  bullet no matter how much you dislike the thought of someone else  hunting your land.

That would be a cold day in Hell......I believe I can speak for many...many land owners on that one....We didn't bust our humps and sacrifice and aren't paying high taxes for someone else to use our property....Seriously?! ???

So if someone were to ask your permission and abide by your rules, you still wouldnt allow them to hunt? Seems pretty selfish to me. That is the attitude that is killing our sport.

While I dont agree with erussell that the youth seasons are a waste of time, I wholeheartedly agree that lack of access to anything but state land is probably the #1 cause for people to quit the sport. I dont agree with the government forcing anyone to open their land, but maybe some tax or other incentives for landowners to open up their land (like done in other states) would go a long way.

[Doc]

So if someone were to ask your permission and abide by your rules, you still wouldnt allow them to hunt? Seems pretty selfish to me. That is the attitude that is killing our sport.

While I dont agree with erussell that the youth seasons are a waste of time, I wholeheartedly agree that lack of access to anything but state land is probably the #1 cause for people to quit the sport. I dont agree with the government forcing anyone to open their land, but maybe some tax or other incentives for landowners to open up their land (like done in other states) would go a long way.

First of all, there is no legal way that any government agency is going to "force" landowners to open up their land to hunters. So I wouldn't be too concerned about that.

Secondly, I am getting pretty tired of that word "selfish" being thrown around in every argument that comes up on this forum. That is a lazy man's allegation that has no basis in fact most of the time it is used. If for whatever reason, a landowner does not want to allow his land to be over-run by hunters, I think he has a perfect right to limit the use of his land without being called selfish. It seems to be the general opinion of those that don't own land that all landowners have some sort of obligation to allow anyone onto their land that asks. Otherwise he is guilty of some negative character feature such as selfishness. Well, that is utter nonsense. If a landowner wants to close off his land from the general public, that's his business. He paid the exhorbitant price for the land. He pays the outrageous taxes. He provides whatever improvements that take place on his property. He may very well be the one that pays the high cost of a lease. And he shouldn't be required to justify the fact that he doesn't want intrusions. That's like suburbanites and urbanites being called selfish if they don't allow trespassers to establish a short-cut across their yard.

Also, I'm sure that 90% or better of those people who practice QDM on their property, or property that they lease, keep a pretty tight lid on who and how many hunters enter their property. Are they selfish? I think they may have legitimate reasons other than selfishness for requiring something more than just a request and a promise to abide by some rules.

Finally, as to liability, that little phrase, "This protection does not apply in cases of willful or malicious failure to guard or warn against dangers" is pretty easy to twist around by any semi-skilled lawyer. We had a dug well about half way up the hill that we never discovered until about 20 years after moving on the property. Had someone fallen in there, it would have likely resulted in a lawsuit claiming that we had engaged in willful failure to guard or warn against that particular danger. I know of two other such wells on other people's property that they may or may not know even exist. Secondly, I'm not too sure just how one goes about judging what features on his land require a warning. We have many natural dangers on our hill, and I'll be damned if I'm going to lay up a forest of signs all over the place to legally warn or guard people traveling the land. So, the point is that even with the general obligations law, there are still enough legal loopholes for any lawyer worth his salt to steer his lawsuit through. So if landowners are still concerned over that issue, it may very well be with good cause.

So before we get so eager to use that ever-so-handy word, "selfish", maybe we should learn a bit more about the reasons that they decide to shut their land off from the public. And maybe we shouldn't be so quick to consider that his land should become our land with just a simple request. 

Sorry if this lengthy response seems to be a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to something that was probably written quite innocently, but this "selfish" thing has become a bit of a hot button along with a few other negative personal comments that get thrown around here without a whole lot of thought. This idea that "if you don't let me use what is yours, you are selfish" did kind of rub me the wrong way I guess. :-\

[fasteddie]

So if someone were to ask your permission and abide by your rules, you still wouldnt allow them to hunt? Seems pretty selfish to me. That is the attitude that is killing our sport.

Wouldn't that be the same if I spent my money on other things , didn't have a home , asked you to use your house and if you said NO , you would be "selfish" . Samo , samo ! 

[Chevy]

I agree Doc. Seems everyone is trying to get a piece of archery season these days i.e. crossguns, ML, special rifle season ect...and if you put up a legitimate fight to preserve the season you love you are labeled "selfish".  Now they want our private property. I guess Obama and socialism is catching on!

[G-Man]

Chevy,      I don't see where anything is taken from bow season...they want to give us two weeks additional with this proposal...I am kind of sick of the conspericy theories about how a youth hunt will kill the season,or even an doe only muzzleloader 4 day...Its never been done and all the worries and faults found are just conjecture try it we might like it...

[fasteddie]

The proposed Youth Hunt might be beneficial to me . None would be hunting on the private properties that I hunt . If they are on adjacent property , they might spook the deer my way .

As for the ML proposal , I guess I would put down the bow and go for the extra distance with the ML .

Oh , selfish me ........... :

[WNYBuckHunter]

And people with land are going to have to open it up and just bite the  bullet no matter how much you dislike the thought of someone else  hunting your land.

That would be a cold day in Hell......I believe I can speak for many...many land owners on that one....We didn't bust our humps and sacrifice and aren't paying high taxes for someone else to use our property....Seriously?! ???

So if someone were to ask your permission and abide by your rules, you still wouldnt allow them to hunt? Seems pretty selfish to me. That is the attitude that is killing our sport.

While I dont agree with erussell that the youth seasons are a waste of time, I wholeheartedly agree that lack of access to anything but state land is probably the #1 cause for people to quit the sport. I dont agree with the government forcing anyone to open their land, but maybe some tax or other incentives for landowners to open up their land (like done in other states) would go a long way.

Do you own land? Do you let others on it to hunt? If so, can I hunt there

I hunt my fathers land, and yes others have permission to do so. Can you? Id have to say no, there are enough of us that do already, its a pretty small tract adjacent to another small tract that I have permission for. I also hunt a farm thats very large, and I have permission to bring others out for predator hunting, etc. If we can put something together next season, we will.

Im not saying grant full access to just anybody or you are a selfish a-hole here fellas, but if you want to take what I said to an extreme, have at it.  : Sorry, but I think that people that prohibit anyone but themselves, regardless of anything, to hunt their land are part of the problem that is driving people away from hunting. You hear it all the time on here, guys that cant find anywhere to hunt, cant gain permission, etc etc. I know guys that have given hunting up because they dont have anywhere but state land and they cant afford leases, etc. Honestly, what is the problem with what I suggested? Tax based incentives for land owners to allow X number of people to hunt their land per year. If you dont want to participate, you dont have to. Its done out west, it could be done here as well. If you are worried about people following the rules, its simple really, they agree to follow your rules or they arent allowed to hunt. They break them, they arent allowed back, etc etc.

[erussell]

No where in my rant did I say anything about the government forcing anyone to open up there land. I have read and re read it and not sure how it got taken that way. I am no friend of government intrusion into any part of anyones lives, though I am for rule of law, anyhow, let me refrase It, hunters who own land and keep bemoning the loss of the hunter ranks need to start putting their money where there mouth is and take a hard look at themselves. What are you doing to promote hunting besides buying a tag? How many have allowed a parent and there kid hunt on there land? I'm not saying let every sh-- head who drives up and ask's to hunt, hunt. Grill them and let them know what is expected if you decide to let someone hunt. Every season I drive by thousands of acreas of private land loaded with deer that have very few hunters on them. And yes that is your God given right as a tax paying citizen to post it up tight. But are you causing more harm to our sport by your irrational fear of loseing a few deer to someone else that are probably going to die over the winter or get hit by a car anyhow. So next time someone stops and asks to hunt especially with there kid, spend a few moments to find out what thier all about and if they seem alright then give them some time on your land. And it doesn't even have to be for deer. Tell them no deer hunting but small game hunting is allowed. If you like what you see invite them to deer hunt a few days to thin the does out. You may help hook a child on hunting. And for those of you who already do this it is appreciated and will do more for the sport than any government mandated youth hunts.

[RTF]

You can blame NY for the limited access to private lands. Growing up we had many acres of private land in and around our area to hunt. It was a NY program called COOP hunting where the land owners would open their land up for hunting. Signs would be posted that showed the landowners who cooperated with DEC and away you went to hunt. I believe in the late 90's due to budget cuts the program was stopped, closing down thousand of acres of available hunting.

[erussell]

You can blame NY for the limited access to private lands. Growing up we had many acres of private land in and around our area to hunt. It was a NY program called COOP hunting where the land owners would open their land up for hunting. Signs would be posted that showed the landowners who cooperated with DEC and away you went to hunt. I believe in the late 90's due to budget cuts the program was stopped, closing down thousand of acres of available hunting.

PA has something simular I think. Do you still have to ask permission to hunt or can you just find the signs and hunt? If it's just find a sign and hunt ,If I owned land I would have a hard time agreeing to this as I think a lot of land owners on this sight  probably would to. I would rather know who was there and where they were. To many people have no respect for other peoples property now adays. Now I don't think they are a majority of the hunters but it only takes one close call or a bullet through a land owners window to ruin it for all of us. I think most people would rather have a say in whom they let hunt.  This thread is way off the original subject, so who likes the Oct 1st start to the bow season ? 

[First-light]

Oct 1st is great, youth hunt wonderful and early smokepole a treat!

[bubba]

again I preface with I am from the North.  For many years I hunted state land, and was very successful.  I guess I just dont see the guys can only hunt state land poor them attitudes.  I lost a nice peice of private land and a camp in the dacks many years ago due to the govt taking over. It has only been about 6 years I have had my own property and only the past two I have had a camp.  I own it, I pay the taxes on it and damn it I will decide who hunts it.  I gave up a lot of other pleasures over the years to get it.  Call me selfish if you choose to, but I just dont get the I wont hunt if I can only hunt state land thing.  There is a lot of very good state land to hunt.  I am not a reason that hunter numbers are decreasing just because I own my own piece of property and do not let others hunt it. Laziness and eletist attitudes as well as cost are driving hunter numbers down.  Everyone watches hunting shows on tv on all these rpivate ranches and feel they deserve the same. I was thinking of opening it up to a chosen few and charge them to help pay the taxes.  But I can afford them, so I will pay them and invite people I choose to.  I have allowed  youth to hunt my property, and I have taken them as well as parents out.  I guess I just dont get all the whining and complaining they are ruining my hunt.   

[WNYBuckHunter]

again I preface with I am from the North.  For many years I hunted state land, and was very successful.  I guess I just dont see the guys can only hunt state land poor them attitudes.  I lost a nice peice of private land and a camp in the dacks many years ago due to the govt taking over. It has only been about 6 years I have had my own property and only the past two I have had a camp.  I own it, I pay the taxes on it and damn it I will decide who hunts it.  I gave up a lot of other pleasures over the years to get it.  Call me selfish if you choose to, but I just dont get the I wont hunt if I can only hunt state land thing.  There is a lot of very good state land to hunt.  I am not a reason that hunter numbers are decreasing just because I own my own piece of property and do not let others hunt it. Laziness and eletist attitudes as well as cost are driving hunter numbers down.  Everyone watches hunting shows on tv on all these rpivate ranches and feel they deserve the same. I was thinking of opening it up to a chosen few and charge them to help pay the taxes.  But I can afford them, so I will pay them and invite people I choose to.  I have allowed  youth to hunt my property, and I have taken them as well as parents out.  I guess I just dont get all the whining and complaining they are ruining my hunt. 

I wouldnt call that selfish at all bubba, you are letting others hunt. Like I said, my original comment was taken to an extreme, I never said you should just open it up to anyone. Be choosy with who hunts it and stay tight to your rules. Careful with charging others to hunt though, as the law says, you then become liable for them getting hurt, etc.

As far as the guys that quit, a couple had other reasons and the lack of hunting areas was part of it, one was almost shot by another hunter on state land, tried for a couple of years to find something private and finally just gave it up. I dont really understand it either, I hunt alot on state land, have almost been shot and gone many seasons eating tag sandwich, but I have kept going. In any case, lack of available land to hunt is a big reason for hunters leaving or not joining the sport.

[growalot]

There ya go ...lack of available land to hunt....Try looking at the land that is for sale ...farms going under....farmers selling off chunks....That is not a problem....the problem is ppl not wanting to do the sacrifice...I have to wonder...while they are complaining are they standing in the yard of a nice big house with a big new pick up and car in the drive....have they just gotten back from vacation ....is there a boat or motor cycle...4 wheeler in the garage?

Please it's their choices plane and simple...they want a place to hunt PRETTY MUCH handed to them....we have guys that hunt camp...never see them all year then all of a sudden the end of summer comes and the calls begin..."How ya doing buddy?"...not all are like that ...but it happens a lot....So do I feel sorry for them....NO....I have land  because I drive a car that cost $200.00....I went from a 2400sqr ft home and garden place to and old converted hunting camp as my house....do I regret it..... no...those were my choices...in order to have a descent piece of land....Why...because I did look to the future and what I saw was condos being built out in the middle of no where...the beautiful village of Geneseo ...looking like Henrietta...large tracts of land being put into 5 acre parcels...Thanks Kraft Reality > ...So don't whine unless your willing to do something to help your self

[Doc]

I did my thing with the open land situation. I invited a buddy from work out to hunt. Next thing I knew, he was inviting people out on his own. Friends and relatives, and what the heck he was a friend so I didn't say anything. However, it wasn't too many years that I began to find people in my stands, or had to schedule times with other hunters for a small chunk of my own land to hunt. Next thing I knew, there were all kinds of strangers walking around that I had never seen before. Even worse the original guy that I had invited out moved to Texas, and I was left with this mob of uninvited strangers. Finally one day it all came to a head when I looked out my front window down toward the road and saw a huge gang of red-coats bailing out of cars, setting up a drive through the thicket between my house and the road. When I confronted this crew, it turns out the ring-leader was a brother-in-law of the original guy that I invited out some years earlier. Well, after kicking that bunch out, my project for that day was to completely surround myself with posted signs and begin informing others hunting the property that they were no longer welcome there.

Yes, I've had to set up a pretty hard-nosed set of rules for anyone who I invited out since (and there haven't been that many), and I have made it an absolute rule never to hand out hunting permission to anyone that I don't know very well ahead of time.

People just simply like to take advantage. And this is not an isolated incident. My father went through the exact same scenario, to the point where all the original invitees had disappeared and this huge horde of strangers infested the property. Apparently it is just human nature to abuse landowner hospitality.

I suspect that a lot of this property that people have difficulty getting access to is probably the same kinds of situations. I doubt there is much of it that is hunted only by the landowner. most likely they too have limited access to only those people that they can trust not to abuse their hospitality. No, that doesn't allow for the same kind of hunter density as back when almost all the land was wide open and unposted. But simply as an action of self-preservation, people have begun to limit access simply because there are too many people who don't respect a landowner's hospitality and who take advantage.

So first of all, don't automatically assume that because there are posted signs there is only the landowner hunting there. Second, don't assume that just because there are posted signs that they are put there because of selfishness. And thirdly, even if you are the most upright, ethical, and honest hunter in the world don't be assuming that there are some kind of evil motives with those who refuse permission. Usually there is some kind of valid history behind that refusal.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Doc, I know of your story with the idiots taking advantage of your land, and understand the issues with people taking advantage of others' hospitality. Honestly though, if you had put your foot down right off the bat and told the guy that he could not be bringing a bunch of people with him, you probably would not have had the issues. Thats exactly what I mean about sticking to your rules, and it sounds like now you have a good handle on them.

I dont assume anything when seeing posted signs, they dont even deter me from asking permission. The big farm I hunt is posted up tighter than a drum, but I still got access. The deterant (and I have experienced this) is when you knock on a door and the person looks at you and speaks to you like you are some kind of garbage when you ask permission. Ive been called every name in the book, yelled at, pushed and the whole 9 yards just for politely asking permission to hunt a tract of woods. Its not the reaction I get most of the time, but it does happen, and there is just no call for that kind of crap. Now take someone that isnt as enthusiastic about hunting as I am, and put them in that position once or twice and they are likely to just say forget it.

[G-Man]

Its  been my experiance that most property is posted because the owner wants to know who is on their property and when. I have gained access to a lot of posted land by asking well in advance of season and also asking what times/areas i can be in. I have one piece of property i can hunt that the owner only hunts opening weekend and i am not allowed then..the rest of the season its mine! Another i am not allowed in a 5 acre area around the house/barns ever. Another i have a certain spot to park in. Yes there have been rejections and they have the right to do that.

[bubba]

off topic, but it seems it has strayed anyway.  I purchased my tract at the county tax sale.  I purchased 250 acres for 3 thousand dollars.  I scraped and built a camp.  There is an older gentleman next door who owns 200 more acres.  He cut a deal if I cut split and stacked 12 cord of wood a year for him, I had exclusive with his place too.  Plus he has willed it to me when he passes as he has no family who is interested in it.  needless to say he get 12 plus cords a year, and all the venison he wants.  I was lucky, but my point is check the tax sales.  Lots of times you can get a deal.