Antler Restriction Results Poll

[Doewhacker]

8 minutes ago, alloutdoors said:

Personal experience running camera surveys on individual parcels of land in the eastern part of the state. Wasn't implying it's a state wide number, in fact it's really a worst case scenario with high hunting pressure and a patchwork of small properties primarily in the 20-70 acre range. It just demonstrates what can happen in the "shoot anything with antlers" model of deer hunting, and it's why I appreciate the AR's we currently have, despite how much better they could be implemented.

It would have been easier just to say you made it up or pulled it out of your butt. 

[Doewhacker]

15 minutes ago, alloutdoors said:

LOL. Guess I can throw out my degrees in wildlife management, I didn't realize having 95% of the doe bred was the only necessary barometer of herd health. Thanks for setting me straight.

Not the only barometer but a big one.  

ARs are an opinion based social issue, not a herd health issue but fellas like you try to act like they know it all by dropping “degrees” into internet posts like that adds some type of importance to your opinion. (It doesn’t). 

Really we have gone over all of this countless times and nothing changes by trying to force it. Have fun flexing your brain. 

[dbHunterNY]

11 minutes ago, Doewhacker said:

It would have been easier just to say you made it up or pulled it out of your butt. 

may have been based on his own observations. i don't think it's info that should be discredited and compared to something coming out one's a**.  dozens of instances have been reported by DEC were a particular aggregate composed of multiple WMUs have had a yearling harvest of 70+% including some aggregates coming in right around 75% multiple seasons showing no clear trend indicating it's in the past.  while not much better and a lot of work to stay ahead of the average, i'm glad i'm in an aggregate that's not that bad.

[alloutdoors]

38 minutes ago, Doewhacker said:

It would have been easier just to say you made it up or pulled it out of your butt. 

Believe whatever you want. I've been in the wildlife field for close to 20 years, and early in my career doing deer population research was how I earned my paycheck for a period of time. Whether or not you choose to see any value in that is purely up to you.

[Doewhacker]

Golly gee that doesn’t look like any where near 75% in the Schoharie area. I’m shocked, I mean he has a degree. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

36 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

may have been based on his own observations. i don't think it's info that should be discredited and compared to something coming out one's a**.  dozens of instances have been reported by DEC were a particular aggregate composed of multiple WMUs have had a yearling harvest of 70+% including some aggregates coming in right around 75% multiple seasons showing no clear trend indicating it's in the past.  while not much better and a lot of work to stay ahead of the average, i'm glad i'm in an aggregate that's not that bad.

Property surveys, either in person or by camera mean very very little in estimating harvests. There are literally dozens of reasons why bucks you saw during the summer are gone at season end.  He was stating 75% harvest data for yearlings. He talked about the anecdotal evidence he witnessed on his and his parents property.  First off are we talking 50 acres or 15,000?  There are too many variables to support his claims and waiving a diploma and a work history  is no guarantee of any reliable knowledge at all. We all know that and I don't care what profession we are discussing. 

I am going to say it and let the walls fall down but to be quite honest it is his attitude  that seems to be predominant with so many AR proponents that turns off those that don't understand them or are  not in favor of them for whatever reason. When you put down folks, set them back on their heels and you sound like an ass you are not going to convince them that your position has any merit at all. 

[Hunter007]

2 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

age and experience makes a smarter buck. Not genetics. 

Sorry but  just like a dog is just a wolf that's been bread to be more docile around people .

The less hunting pressure you put on the deer  or bear or any game animal the more likely you will get deer that are less afraid of people  or let themselves get closer to people then they would normally.  So the minute that deers  horns gets over the size  limit it gets shot   even more easily then if you had no AR .

Dont really see it doing anything except helping someone shoot a bigger buck that normally  would not get to shoot because naturally only the smartest ones , good at staying away from hunters grow old . 

 

 

[dbHunterNY]

3 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

Property surveys, either in person or by camera mean very very little in estimating harvests. There are literally dozens of reasons why bucks you saw during the summer are gone at season end.  He was stating 75% harvest data for yearlings. He talked about the anecdotal evidence he witnessed on his and his parents property.  First off are we talking 50 acres or 15,000?  There are too many variables to support his claims and waiving a diploma and a work history  is no guarantee of any reliable knowledge at all. We all know that and I don't care what profession we are discussing. 

I am going to say it and let the walls fall down but to be quite honest it is his attitude  that seems to be predominant with so many AR proponents that turns off those that don't understand them or are  not in favor of them for whatever reason. When you put down folks, set them back on their heels and you sound like an ass you are not going to convince them that your position has any merit at all. 

i agree that a property or even a handful isn't enough to statistically mean anything to determine stats at a WMU level.  i also agree with the diploma and work history posturing usually ends up distasteful. like wise to write off someone's degree, whether or not it brings any merit, is an a** thing to do that's only going to get someone else on their heels the same. we all know damn well they aren't given out for free and without effort.  walls have long been kicked down and bridges burned by both sides of the AR fence.  i don't have the time or care to fix any of them, despite i hope it happens. predominance of any attitude seems to be subjective based on what side of the fence you're on.  don't know how i come across and if 'you' means me but my efforts and what i volunteered my free time to do are to educate people on deer crap that they seem to truly care about only a month or so out of the year. any time an AR thread comes up it's this all out war about which side you're on, that's riddled with BS facts or myths like a political election candidates history. any productive conversation is then lost.  present real facts and leave it to an individual to decide if it's best for them or not.

back to what's been posted, in some places well over 60% of yearling bucks getting taken happens. right around 75% is a real thing if you look through the whole deer harvest summary (including what's posted) and regardless of where that happens it's bad. it's not a social issue. it's a deer management issue. will the sky fall? no. does it mean things could be a lot better and worth the effort for both people and deer herd? yes.  if a majority of yearling bucks are being taken in any frequency then you're not meeting a basic requirement for deer management. antler restrictions whether voluntary or otherwise might be a solution. if it seems like you and others around you more often than not pass yearling and maybe a smaller portion of 2.5 yr old bucks then antler restrictions might not help you meet the goal you're after.

[dbHunterNY]

1 hour ago, Storm914 said:

Sorry but  just like a dog is just a wolf that's been bread to be more docile around people .

The less hunting pressure you put on the deer  or bear or any game animal the more likely you will get deer that are less afraid of people  or let themselves get closer to people then they would normally.  So the minute that deers  horns gets over the size  limit it gets shot   even more easily then if you had no AR .

Dont really see it doing anything except helping someone shoot a bigger buck that normally  would not get to shoot because naturally only the smartest ones , good at staying away from hunters grow old . 

 

 

young bucks aren't really dumb or less smart. to what your saying you can have a young buck that's been pressured that acts smarter than and older buck that's not pressured. i tend to use the word ignorance instead. young deer and old deer both come into range can sense your presence all the same and no how to elude you just as fast too. bucks that have experienced the seasonal pressure just have experienced what they know as danger.  it doesn't make it easier to kill a particular buck. either way it's a buck that's getting shot at during a particular time in its life but until then knows no different.  in reality, that first bullet that travels close to them or failed stalk by a hunter flips the switch but they've already been walking the earth gaining intel and already have some stuff figured out.  they just now respond to what they know differently. some bucks have a day to day pattern that coincidentally keeps them out of harms way. no less smart than another buck that unknowingly takes a different path past your treestand. it's all about what they've seen and associate with danger. older deer have seen more. 

[Hunter007]

44 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

young bucks aren't really dumb or less smart. to what your saying you can have a young buck that's been pressured that acts smarter than and older buck that's not pressured. i tend to use the word ignorance instead. young deer and old deer both come into range can sense your presence all the same and no how to elude you just as fast too. bucks that have experienced the seasonal pressure just have experienced what they know as danger.  it doesn't make it easier to kill a particular buck. either way it's a buck that's getting shot at during a particular time in its life but until then knows no different.  in reality, that first bullet that travels close to them or failed stalk by a hunter flips the switch but they've already been walking the earth gaining intel and already have some stuff figured out.  they just now respond to what they know differently. some bucks have a day to day pattern that coincidentally keeps them out of harms way. no less smart than another buck that unknowingly takes a different path past your treestand. it's all about what they've seen and associate with danger. older deer have seen more. 

Not if you dont hunt them  because of AR what did they learn if anything they learn hunters ignor them  until they reach that limit . See what I mean .  Your giving them a false sense of security up until that day there horn gets legal size . 

Say what you want but your not getting the best survival gentics with AR .

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Storm914

[Savagehunter]

On 10/31/2018 at 11:11 AM, Canis Latrans said:

Some people have mentioned there are less Deer overall after AR implementation. What could be the reason for this? The only thing I can think of is bow hunters taking doe instead of bucks. I often hear people on this forum complaining that there aren’t many bucks but they saw 18 doe in the stand that day, yet still can’t get doe tags. 

 

It sounds like maybe maybe two or three years of AR’s in that area might be a good solution.

The guys who used to shoot a young buck for meat are now killing does instead.one doe can equally many deer in just 3 years.hate antler restrictions personally 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

i agree that a property or even a handful isn't enough to statistically mean anything to determine stats at a WMU level.  i also agree with the diploma and work history posturing usually ends up distasteful. like wise to write off someone's degree, whether or not it brings any merit, is an a** thing to do that's only going to get someone else on their heels the same. we all know damn well they aren't given out for free and without effort.  walls have long been kicked down and bridges burned by both sides of the AR fence.  i don't have the time or care to fix any of them, despite i hope it happens. predominance of any attitude seems to be subjective based on what side of the fence you're on.  don't know how i come across and if 'you' means me but my efforts and what i volunteered my free time to do are to educate people on deer crap that they seem to truly care about only a month or so out of the year. any time an AR thread comes up it's this all out war about which side you're on, that's riddled with BS facts or myths like a political election candidates history. any productive conversation is then lost.  present real facts and leave it to an individual to decide if it's best for them or not.

back to what's been posted, in some places well over 60% of yearling bucks getting taken happens. right around 75% is a real thing if you look through the whole deer harvest summary (including what's posted) and regardless of where that happens it's bad. it's not a social issue. it's a deer management issue. will the sky fall? no. does it mean things could be a lot better and worth the effort for both people and deer herd? yes.  if a majority of yearling bucks are being taken in any frequency then you're not meeting a basic requirement for deer management. antler restrictions whether voluntary or otherwise might be a solution. if it seems like you and others around you more often than not pass yearling and maybe a smaller portion of 2.5 yr old bucks then antler restrictions might not help you meet the goal you're after.

Certainly was not talking about you. Even though you and I are pretty much on opposite sides of this topic you have always approached these conversations with supportable facts and discussed it with respect.

[Savagehunter]

4 hours ago, Doewhacker said:

Golly gee that doesn’t look like any where near 75% in the Schoharie area. I’m shocked, I mean he has a degree. 

Bullshit #s. Pulled out of someone’s ass!

[dlgerow]

So young bucks are still shooters. Got it.
 

I am sure you do not age merely by antler size but some do I presume. Here is one down size to AR since you brought it up...I have seen my fair share of spikes, 4 pointers...that are 3.5/4.5 years old but we cannot shoot them hence leaving those poor genetics in the area.

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[Uncle Nicky]

I'm still on the fence about ARs, I like to have the choice of shooting whatever makes someone happy. But, in all honesty, I've never hunted an AR region in NY, but here in PA, antler restrictions are about 18 years old now, and there are definitely bigger bucks walking around now than before ARs.

[Canis Latrans]

2 hours ago, dlgerow said:

I am sure you do not age merely by antler size but some do I presume. Here is one down size to AR since you brought it up...I have seen my fair share of spikes, 4 pointers...that are 3.5/4.5 years old but we cannot shoot them hence leaving those poor genetics in the area.

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Can you post some pictures of 3.5 and 4.5 year old spikes?

[Canis Latrans]

So far 72% of people see more bucks or the same amount of bucks. Anyone else want to vote? 

[wolc123]

12 minutes ago, Canis Latrans said:

So far 72% of people see more bucks or the same amount of bucks. Anyone else want to vote? 

No, but are you for them or against mandatory state-wide AR's. ?

The only way I would be for them is if a correlation could be shown, using data from another state or from a NY WMU where they have been in effect, with hunter safety.   It seems to me that they could "in theory" slow folks down a little and make them spend more time identifying their target.  Taking the AR's off the table for young hunters (as is always suggested) pretty much defeats the purpose of that however. 

I think the mandatory AR argument is behind us now, with the current increasing popularity of "meat" as a more important reason to hunt than big antlers.   If they ever do come back to the forefront, I would not mind a "three points on a side" rule, with a violation being the inability to purchase a buck tag for the season in which the offence occurred for the following year.  Such an enforcement would not require additional manpower from the thin-stretched NY state DEC.  It would also be a move towards the "one-buck" rule that some have suggested.  Finally, it would have little effect on me personally because it has been more than ten years since I harvested an antlered buck with less than three points on a side.  

[Buckmaster7600]

Sorry but  just like a dog is just a wolf that's been bread to be more docile around people .
The less hunting pressure you put on the deer  or bear or any game animal the more likely you will get deer that are less afraid of people  or let themselves get closer to people then they would normally.  So the minute that deers  horns gets over the size  limit it gets shot   even more easily then if you had no AR .
Dont really see it doing anything except helping someone shoot a bigger buck that normally  would not get to shoot because naturally only the smartest ones , good at staying away from hunters grow old . 
 
 

Disagree, I frequently hunt deer that have likely never saw a human before and they’re just as wary as deer that see humans daily. I think hunters give themselves way more credit than deserved when it comes to effecting a deers life.


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