the unwritten rule of claiming a hit deer

[Chef]

I agree shot placement is key, yet minor calibers without a doubt yield more lost dear . There is no debating that according to guys who’ve tracked thousands of them .

Shot placement is for sure key, but let’s set you shoot a little far back with a 243. You hit liver and maybe some stomach. That could take 6 hours and a long track job to find. Now let’s say you hit the same spot with a 45/70 you destroy the liver punch a huge hole in the stomach and the shock destroys the diaphragm. This deer now can’t breath even though the lungs are in tact and goes 100 yards and piles up. Yes caliber can make a difference


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[Chef]

This seems to be a reasonable way to handle a situation with a second shooter.  I know what my friends and I do but even with a stranger and a booner, if he/she is tracking a deer where bullet/arrow entered such that the Deer would likely/possibly die without my second shot, I would happily finish it off and let them tag it.  If the hole was in the ear (as an extreme example) then that stranger has no right to claim the Deer.   
Here is a harder scenario in my opinion, you hear your friend shoot and he texts you saying he just shot a real nice buck and it’s running your way.  A nice buck comes trotting by minutes later.  You have no buck tag.   Can/should you shoot it?   What do you need to confirm before shooting if your answer is yes?  This runs the ethical vs legal line.   

I say if you know your friend well enough and you can tell the deer is wounded you put it down. It’s getting his tag.


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[NFA-ADK]

Every deer I lost was due to poor shot placement, did not matter if it was my 308, 30-06, 30-30 or my 44 mag or bow and arrow.  I could have used a shotgun and it would not have mattered.  I switched to the  44 mag for many reasons.  

1  Open sights are much easier for me to lock onto a deer

2  Easy of use:   Simply put I am a great shot with this gun offhand vs my other larger guns, it is light enough to carry all day and still be able to hold on target the last 10 minutes of legal shooting light. 

3  Light caliber YES, often I will not get passthroughs but I make up for that with accuracy.  Note this is my least accurate gun from a bench!  All other guns have scopes and I can hit quarter size holes often and center punch with my 30-06.  Still the 44 mag is the preferred gun due to my accuracy with it at close ranges, close I am talking 70 yards and in to a few feet.  

4  Follow up shots are very effective with no scope on a running deer!  More often than not I am able to get more than one round in the animal to ensure short tracking and easy of recovery.  

So far my recovery rate for my 44 mag is 100% not one other weapon has come close and it has nothing to do with impact and everything to do with shot placement!

 

Side note:  I do agree that larger calibers have more shock but if you do not hit a vital area it is irrelevant.  Larger calibers will not make recovery easier, becoming as good a sniper as you are capable is what really matters, pick the gun you are most confident in.  My 30-06 is my most accurate gun but I am most effective with my least accurate gun, go figure.

Sorry so long but I figured I probably have one of the lightest calibers of the many hunters here and shot placement has been the most important over the years vs what caliber I use. 

 

[NYBowhunter]

1 hour ago, chefhunter86 said:

I’m not defending him because he is wrong. But work on your reading comprehension and understand of sarcasm before you make posts like this.


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My reading comprehension is perfectly fine and yes i get that smartass comment about the 9mm  and bear.  I think you need to work on your reading comprehension as well because this dude is not being sarcastic however is being quite serious and actually believes and is defending what he is writting. 

[tarheel95]

This seems to be a reasonable way to handle a situation with a second shooter.  I know what my friends and I do but even with a stranger and a booner, if he/she is tracking a deer where bullet/arrow entered such that the Deer would likely/possibly die without my second shot, I would happily finish it off and let them tag it.  If the hole was in the ear (as an extreme example) then that stranger has no right to claim the Deer.   
Here is a harder scenario in my opinion, you hear your friend shoot and he texts you saying he just shot a real nice buck and it’s running your way.  A nice buck comes trotting by minutes later.  You have no buck tag.   Can/should you shoot it?   What do you need to confirm before shooting if your answer is yes?  This runs the ethical vs legal line.   

It is a reasonable way, the only complication is it puts a lot of the honor on the first shooter to stake or relinquish the claim to the kill. I would tend to put the deference to the first shooter and let them make their move one way or the other. There are other deer in the woods and frankly it isn't worth getting into a beef over. Just my opinion and I hope if I am the first shooter with a legit claim I meet a second shooter who feels the same.

On your other hypothetical, my test is always what I would tell my son to do. First, I would tell him that he should have some identification from the other shooter of the deer (size, where shot, pts, etc) so he could positively id the deer before a fatal shot to put down. If can make that id, take the shot. Second, if he can't identify but the deer is clearly suffering (lame, gut shot, bad head shot, etc), put it down. Sometimes the ethical thing isn't the legal thing to do.




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[Hunter007]

1 hour ago, NYBowhunter said:

My reading comprehension is perfectly fine and yes i get that smartass comment about the 9mm  and bear.  I think you need to work on your reading comprehension as well because this dude is not being sarcastic however is being quite serious and actually believes and is defending what he is writting. 

Your comment about guys making bad shots does not even make sense  .

Every hunter is trying to make a good shot when they hunt. 

So with all things being equal .

A guy is better off using a more powerful caliber. 

That's my  only point  here it never changed .

 why do I want to use a  55 grain bullet 

When I can use 100 150 180 200 or more grain bullet . 

Or any bullet that will make the bigger wound channel.

Why limit yourself to less power if you dont have  to .

If you dont think it makes  a difference maybe you should try grizzly bear  hunting with 22 LR in Alaska. 

And tell us all how it worked out . 

The only exception would be if you cant shoot those larger calibers accurately .

 

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Storm914

[Buckmaster7600]

First, let me say I know I am stupid getting involved in this...>...
However  often a larger caliber with a heavier bullet does LESS tissue damage than a smaller , lighter constructed bullet at higher velocities... One of it's advantages is, that it is more likely to exit,  making for a better blood trail...
Often  the smaller cailbers don't exit, and if it is a bad hit that makes for a tough tracking job...I don't think a .338 Mag  hit center lung kills a deer any quicker than a .243 center lung... However a deer gut shot with  the bigger gun probably will be easier to track..  

Ding ding ding!!!!! I’m not getting involved in this black hole of a thread but I will say I’ve killed deer with a 222- 500S&W and I’ll say if efficiency in killing is the number one factor give me a mid bore 25-35cal from 2700-3000fps. By far I’ve tracked deer farther when shot from 45-70’s than I have from a 270 and I’ve shot piles with both.


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[The_Real_TCIII]

I've always believed you drop it you own it .

So if a double lunged deer comes over the rise and you drop it you’re keeping it from a hunter that’s probably coming within the hour?


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[chrisw]

Wow, I haven't kept up with this thread but here's my opinion... To me the first "fatal" shot is the one that puts the deer down in a short distance or very obviously would have, ie: a double lung hit, lung/liver, heart, 2 broken front shoulders etc... A gut shot in my opinion is not a fatal hit due to the fact you're going to wait hours until you can even begin to track it. If the deer is alive for hours then you're shot was not immediately fatal. I guess we need a consensus on what "fatal" means to you. If I shoot a doe in the ham and she runs around state land for 4 hours and gets shot, was my shot fatal? Possibly? But it sure as hell wasn't dead! Every scenario is different but in my opinion the guy that gut shot the deer first is not entitled to the deer as it was not an immediately fatal hit. You can't wing a deer and say "well, that deer was going to die and I was going to find it" after someone else puts the deer down for you... Sorry, should've made a better first shot.

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[ncountry]

7 hours ago, moog5050 said:

 

Here is a harder scenario in my opinion, you hear your friend shoot and he texts you saying he just shot a real nice buck and it’s running your way.  A nice buck comes trotting by minutes later.  You have no buck tag.   Can/should you shoot it?   What do you need to confirm before shooting if your answer is yes?  This runs the ethical vs legal line.   

A few years back, we had something similar happen.. In our unit during early mzl season you couldn't take a buck with mzl but you could with a bow... one of the guys shot a buck with his bow but it was a poor shot. The deer ran over and actually bedded down right in front of another friend carrying a mzl.. Due to our proximity to a LEO residence he didn't finish him off (normaly anyone of us would have). The deer ended up getting up and led us on a merry chase. 

All ended well but it was way more difficult than it should have been..lol

Legal vs moral. Don't always align. Imho

 

[Buckmaster7600]

This seems to be a reasonable way to handle a situation with a second shooter.  I know what my friends and I do but even with a stranger and a booner, if he/she is tracking a deer where bullet/arrow entered such that the Deer would likely/possibly die without my second shot, I would happily finish it off and let them tag it.  If the hole was in the ear (as an extreme example) then that stranger has no right to claim the Deer.   
Here is a harder scenario in my opinion, you hear your friend shoot and he texts you saying he just shot a real nice buck and it’s running your way.  A nice buck comes trotting by minutes later.  You have no buck tag.   Can/should you shoot it?   What do you need to confirm before shooting if your answer is yes?  This runs the ethical vs legal line.   

Even if it wasn’t my buddy, if I see a badly wounded deer and I don’t have a tag the deer will be killed. I can find a tag.

If I get caught I’ll pay the fine with a smile knowing my conscience is clean!


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[NYBowhunter]

23 hours ago, Storm914 said:

Your comment about guys making bad shots does not even make sense  .

Every hunter is trying to make a good shot when they hunt. 

So with all things being equal .

A guy is better off using a more powerful caliber. 

That's my  only point  here it never changed .

 why do I want to use a  55 grain bullet 

When I can use 100 150 180 200 or more grain bullet . 

Or any bullet that will make the bigger wound channel.

Why limit yourself to less power if you dont have  to .

If you dont think it makes  a difference maybe you should try grizzly bear  hunting with 22 LR in Alaska. 

And tell us all how it worked out . 

The only exception would be if you cant shoot those larger calibers accurately .

 

 

 

 

You just keep going in circles, do you even know what you wrote in your OP? All my responses are geared to and have remained on point as it relates to your original post.  Your the one making smartass scenarios like shooting a bear with a 9mm or a 22, sarcastic or not thats just plain dumb. Your not answersing my question, do you beleive that using a larger caliber will prevent a deer running to the next hunter? Isnt that what your OP was about? I say no, to prevent a deer from running off to the next guy irregardless of caliber (i feel i need to make myself clear here so you dont come up with another sarcastic scenario, lets say calibers are 30-30, 35, 30-06, 7mm, 45-70, 338 etc..) is to have good shot placement.  You seem to think that if i use lets say a 338 vs. a 308 that the 338 will prevent that deer going to the next hunter because its a larger caliber. AGAIN, I say thats nonsense, AGAIN TO ME using a 308 , 243, 35 or 338 makes absolutely no difference TO ME, i rather rely on shot placement irregardless of any above calibers. Maybe you need the 338 lapua to put a deer down, more power to you but ill continue to use my minor calibers and save my shoulder.  ,

[Hunter007]

1 hour ago, NYBowhunter said:

You just keep going in circles, do you even know what you wrote in your OP? All my responses are geared to and have remained on point as it relates to your original post.  Your the one making smartass scenarios like shooting a bear with a 9mm or a 22, sarcastic or not thats just plain dumb. Your not answersing my question, do you beleive that using a larger caliber will prevent a deer running to the next hunter? Isnt that what your OP was about? I say no, to prevent a deer from running off to the next guy irregardless of caliber (i feel i need to make myself clear here so you dont come up with another sarcastic scenario, lets say calibers are 30-30, 35, 30-06, 7mm, 45-70, 338 etc..) is to have good shot placement.  You seem to think that if i use lets say a 338 vs. a 308 that the 338 will prevent that deer going to the next hunter because its a larger caliber. AGAIN, I say thats nonsense, AGAIN TO ME using a 308 , 243, 35 or 338 makes absolutely no difference TO ME, i rather rely on shot placement irregardless of any above calibers. Maybe you need the 338 lapua to put a deer down, more power to you but ill continue to use my minor calibers and save my shoulder.  ,

(This topic is a another reason why you are better off using a little more powerful caliber then a less powerful one who wants to deal with that scenario .)

That's my original comment. 

Everyone here that guns hunts knows exactly what I ment by that . 

Your margin of error  is a little  better with a caliber that makes the bigger wound channel.  

It's not rocket science. 

We all know you have to try and make a perfect shot .

But things sometimes dont work out that way . 

Do what you want, you like spending all day looking for a deer that could have been put down faster   with a better caliber good for you.

 

Edited November 24, 2018 by Storm914

[Buckmaster7600]

(This topic is a another reason why you are better off using a little more powerful caliber then a less powerful one who wants to deal with that scenario .)
That's my original comment. 
Everyone here that guns hunts knows exactly what I ment by that . 
Your margin of error  is a little  better with a caliber that makes the bigger wound channel.  
It's not rocket science. 
We all know you have to try and make a perfect shot .
But things sometimes dont work out that way . 
Do what you want, you like spending all day looking for a deer that could have been put down faster   with a better caliber good for you.
 

Sorry but this has got to be said!

Coming from someone whom I would bet has shot very few deer if any at all and whom chooses to hunt with a 4lb smooth bore 12ga with a bead sight your opinion means very little to anyone on here. Anyone whom has done it for more than a day knows accuracy trumps “power” and putting one in the boiler room is what matters.


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[Hunter007]

33 minutes ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Sorry but this has got to be said!

Coming from someone whom I would bet has shot very few deer if any at all and whom chooses to hunt with a 4lb smooth bore 12ga with a bead sight your opinion means very little to anyone on here. Anyone whom has done it for more than a day knows accuracy trumps “power” and putting one in the boiler room is what matters.


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I dont disagree with you never said anything different never mentioned it  accuracy not being most important thing shouldn't have to its obvious. 

 

By the way, you are the one who told me to go with 308 or 30_06 over 44 mag  in the big woods  because you get better penetration .

Do you remember ?

Also 

you telling me to stay away from  .223  7.62×39mm  because they were 

Not that good either .

Hypothetically speaking let's say you are  off by a inch from the kill zone of a deer  . A better caliber my create a bigger wound channel that will catch part of the vitals that a lesser bullet may miss altogether .

That's all a ment by that statement. 

Btw shotguns even smoothbores   50 yards and less  are accurate. 

And devastating .

 another point range matters also .

But he new what I meant and just was trying to start a argument.

 

This thread was about deer running in front of a second hunter then being shot by that hunter . Something less likely to happen if you use a more powerful caliber. 

I'm done talking about this  . Hunt with what ever you like .

 

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2018 by Storm914

[NYBowhunter]

3 hours ago, Buckmaster7600 said:

Sorry but this has got to be said!

Coming from someone whom I would bet has shot very few deer if any at all and whom chooses to hunt with a 4lb smooth bore 12ga with a bead sight your opinion means very little to anyone on here. Anyone whom has done it for more than a day knows accuracy trumps “power” and putting one in the boiler room is what matters.


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Amen my friend. I dont know what part of my explanation he has a hard time grasping. Accuracy is key in the deer woods wether it be a 30-30 or a 45-70.

[ncountry]

I think  you guys are just stuck on your points...

Storm is absolutely correct a bigger cartridge or one designed to do the most damage will be an advantage if one screws up..

BM is absolutely right that shooting one where you are supposed to is the most important thing.

I don't imagine either one of you would argue with this. Hug it out !

[Buckmaster7600]

I dont disagree with you never said anything different never mentioned it  accuracy not being most important thing shouldn't have to its obvious. 
 
By the way, you are the one who told me to go with 308 or 30_06 over 44 mag  in the big woods  because you get better penetration .
Do you remember ?
Also 
you telling me to stay away from  .223  7.62×39mm  because they were 
Not that good either .
Hypothetically speaking let's say you are  off by a inch from the kill zone of a deer  . A better caliber my create a bigger wound channel that will catch part of the vitals that a lesser bullet may miss altogether .
That's all a ment by that statement. 
Btw shotguns even smoothbores   50 yards and less  are accurate. 
And devastating .
 another point range matters also .
But he new what I meant and just was trying to start a argument.
 
This thread was about deer running in front of a second hunter then being shot by that hunter . Something less likely to happen if you use a more powerful caliber. 
I'm done talking about this  . Hunt with what ever you like .
 
 
 
 

Apples to oranges comparison, the reason I told you to avoid those for big woods hunting is because of shot selection, big woods you take what you can get, have no fear of them getting off the property/by someone else. I want 2 holes and blood to track if I shoot them I’m the ass chest or back legs.

If I’m hunting at home in a tree stand I’m usually using a 357 maximum or a 10mm pistol Because I can be very selective on shots taken.


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[NYBowhunter]

18 minutes ago, ncountry said:

I think  you guys are just stuck on your points...

Storm is absolutely correct a bigger cartridge or one designed to do the most damage will be an advantage if one screws up..

BM is absolutely right that shooting one where you are supposed to is the most important thing.

I don't imagine either one of you would argue with this. Hug it out !

I would also think that you would agree that a gut shot deer with a 30-30 or a 338 produces the same result? A gut shot deer and a long track job. I think you would also agree that shooting a deer in the heart with a 30-30 or 338 produces the same result, right?  They are both dead deer. So you see my point? A gut shot deer with a 338 is a bad shot and  is a larger caliber but doesnt make recovery any easier. While shot placement in the vitals with a plethora of calibers ALWAYS produces the same results, a dead deer. The OP seems to think that the largest caliber a man can handle without flinching should be the gun we carry, i say thats bullshit. Sorry,  just my opiion after have killed well over a hundred deer. Not bragging at all,  its my  observation from many years of experience as a hunter and i feel that does have some relevance.

Edited November 24, 2018 by NYBowhunter

[ncountry]

10 minutes ago, NYBowhunter said:

I would also think that you would agree that a gut shot deer with a 30-30 or a 338 produces the same result? A gut shot deer and a long track job. I think you would also agree that shooting a deer in the heart with a 30-30 or 338 produces the same result, right?  They are both dead deer. So you see my point? A gut shot deer with a 338 is a bad shot and  is a larger caliber but doesnt make recovery any easier. While shot placement in the vitals with a plethora of calibers ALWAYS produces the same results, a dead deer. The OP seems to think that the largest caliber a man can handle without flinching should be the gun we carry, i say thats bullshit. Sorry,  just my opiion after have killed well over a hundred deer. Not bragging at all,  its my  observation from many years of experience as a hunter and i feel that does have some relevance.

Nope. I don't agree. A gut shot deer with a typical 30-30 load will be a difficult find. A gut shot deer with my 300 win mag shooting 150gr rem core locks will not go out of sight(50yds tops).   I have screwed up before. (Never have mastered shooting a moving deer)

[Jeremy K]

On 11/23/2018 at 10:29 AM, Storm914 said:

Your comment about guys making bad shots does not even make sense  .

Every hunter is trying to make a good shot when they hunt. 

So with all things being equal .

A guy is better off using a more powerful caliber. 

That's my  only point  here it never changed .

 why do I want to use a  55 grain bullet 

When I can use 100 150 180 200 or more grain bullet . 

Or any bullet that will make the bigger wound channel.

Why limit yourself to less power if you dont have  to .

If you dont think it makes  a difference maybe you should try grizzly bear  hunting with 22 LR in Alaska. 

And tell us all how it worked out . 

The only exception would be if you cant shoot those larger calibers accurately .

 

 

 

 

That's a complete crock. Not all hunters are trying to make a perfect shot . They try pushing a bullet through stuff they have no business shooting through. A guy is better off practicing with his firearm and making closer shots then using a larger caliber to make up for his lack of marksmanship. 

Edited November 24, 2018 by Jeremy K

[Hunter007]

20 minutes ago, Jeremy K said:

That's a complete crock. Not all hunters are trying to make a perfect shot . They try pushing a bullet through stuff they have no business shooting through. A guy is better off practicing with his firearm and making closer shots then using a larger caliber to make up for his lack of marksmanship. 

Well if they are there going to learn the hard way it is not going to work .

[NYBowhunter]

1 hour ago, ncountry said:

Nope. I don't agree. A gut shot deer with a typical 30-30 load will be a difficult find. A gut shot deer with my 300 win mag shooting 150gr rem core locks will not go out of sight(50yds tops).   I have screwed up before. (Never have mastered shooting a moving deer)

Then you got lucky my friend, 50 yards on a gut shot,  that seems to be the exception but not the norm, either you clipped a vital organ or the deer bedded down within 50 yards and took some time to die thereafter. Ive never seen just a gut shot  deer (no vitals) die within 50 yards. I also own and have hunted with a 300 win mag . and know  their capabilities.  Not doubting you, just find it hard that a gut shot deer only going 50 yards unless vitals were hit as well.

[NYBowhunter]

38 minutes ago, Jeremy K said:

That's a complete crock. Not all hunters are trying to make a perfect shot . They try pushing a bullet through stuff they have no business shooting through. A guy is better off practicing with his firearm and making closer shots then using a larger caliber to make up for his lack of marksmanship. 

Stop Jeremy, thats just plain common sense and it appears some on here overllook commonsense.  I guess it just makes more sense to use the largest caliber you can handle just in case of a marginal shot. Practice till your very proficient and confident with a 30-30, come on thats way to hard. 

[ncountry]

13 minutes ago, NYBowhunter said:

Then you got lucky my friend, 50 yards on a gut shot,  that seems to be the exception but not the norm, either you clipped a vital organ or the deer bedded down within 50 yards and took some time to die thereafter. Ive never seen just a gut shot  deer (no vitals) die within 50 yards. I also own and have hunted with a 300 win mag . and know  their capabilities.  Not doubting you, just find it hard that a gut shot deer only going 50 yards unless vitals were hit as well.

Maybe. I've always shot light for cartridge bullets. (Big believer in hydrostatic shock) 125s in my 308 and 150 in my 300.

Definitely nothing to brag about but I've shot probably 1/2 dozen over the years 100% in the guts.  All dropped within sight, the longest run being 50yds . ..They more fell down than bedded down and did require a killing shot when I walked up on them... Now If for some reason they did run further it would have been a very difficult track..

If I'm just that lucky, I'll take it lol.... totally different story with a heavier constructed bullet though.

Edited November 24, 2018 by ncountry
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