DEC new Regulations Buck only

[WNYBuckHunter]

I dont know about you Grow, but if Im paying for my DMPs, I want to try and use them. Doesnt always work out, but I try.

Some of you act like you are buying the deer to begin with. This is hunting, not a game preserve. You buy a license in order to hunt game, its not a guaranteed thing.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Still no answer what tag do you get for mz if you already bought bow and reg season...they would have to issue you a tag when you buy your licence..another buck tag? Now is an anterless only valid anywhere in the state. But new plan puts all anterless in dmp's so what do you get for the money you spend?

If you dont buy a bow license, and you get your ML license, you get a buck tag with it. Otherwise, you buy the opportunity to hunt with a ML. How you use your tags is your choice.

[WNYBuckHunter]

It does not. The drawings are based on WMU and for areas with low DMP allocation it will be based on preference points, etc. There is no competition involved at all. Its not who lines up at the door to the store the earliest.

The competition involved is in another whole batch of additional lottery participants. It's just like any lottery, more participants means more chances to be rejected. From a bowhunter's standpoint those odds are significantly higher than they are right now. For the gunners, they too may see some extra rejections because of the bowhunters and muzzleloaders selection success. The fact that it is a "lottery" means there are some losers. I have yet to see any kind of lottery (including the DMP drawing) where everyone is accepted.

And also, you are ignoring what has become a traditional over-rejection rate with the now-usual freebies that don't become available until the lottery has ended. Typically that happens at a date that would be well into bow season.

So yes, just like any lottery there is competition with winners and losers. And unfortunately the bowhunters are left out of some of that as I just explained.

Its called picking who gets DMPs for that area that year. A good point was made about it earlier in the thread, gun hunters have always had to deal with the chance of not getting DMPs. Why shouldnt bow hunters have to?

Regardless, its a better way to allocate DMPs based on what is best for the herd in a certain area. In turn, whats good for the herd is ultimately good for us as hunters.

[nyantler]

So now they intend to throw all the bowhunters and muzzleloaders into the DMP lottery system. That now puts us in direct competition with the gun hunters for DMPs. I wonder what kinds of new and exciting problems that will cause.

I didn't know that it was Bow hunters and Muzzleloaders (us) against the gun hunters...

Yes, whether you like it or not this proposal does put bowhunters and muzzleloader hunters in competition for DMPs with the regular season hunters where such a competition never existed before.

Sorry, I didnt know it was a competition

[SteveB]

A good point was made about it earlier in the thread, gun hunters have always

had to deal with the chance of not getting DMPs. Why shouldnt bow hunters have

to?

Great question!

There are roughly 600,000 reg big game tag's and 200,000 each bow and mz tags every year - plus dmp and dmap's. A little over 200,000 combined kills - heard the actual rate of success is around 30% for hunters taking a deer.  WNY is right - you are not buying deer - only the opportunity to pursue them.

It does seems the proposals will effect some areas chance of success alot more then others. But it is already that way now. I kill several every year in 7j and h - if I hunted just the Adirondacks, I might go years between kills.

[Localqdm]

When I lived in IN they had just gone to a 1 buck rule.  You bought a bow or muzz or gun license.  You could by all three, but still only tag 1 buck.  I believe you had to pay for their antlerless permits too, but maybe it was just the 2nd or 3rd permit, if available.  And just to throw this out there, their bow season was much longer than NY, reg firearm was at least a week shorter.  When I lived in OH reg firearm was shorter still--one buck there also I believe.  OK wrong thread ;D

[erussell]

It does not. The drawings are based on WMU and for areas with low DMP allocation it will be based on preference points, etc. There is no competition involved at all. Its not who lines up at the door to the store the earliest.

The competition involved is in another whole batch of additional lottery participants. It's just like any lottery, more participants means more chances to be rejected. From a bowhunter's standpoint those odds are significantly higher than they are right now. For the gunners, they too may see some extra rejections because of the bowhunters and muzzleloaders selection success. The fact that it is a "lottery" means there are some losers. I have yet to see any kind of lottery (including the DMP drawing) where everyone is accepted.

And also, you are ignoring what has become a traditional over-rejection rate with the now-usual freebies that don't become available until the lottery has ended. Typically that happens at a date that would be well into bow season.

So yes, just like any lottery there is competition with winners and losers. And unfortunately the bowhunters are left out of some of that as I just explained.

Its called picking who gets DMPs for that area that year. A good point was made about it earlier in the thread, gun hunters have always had to deal with the chance of not getting DMPs. Why shouldnt bow hunters have to?

I hunt with a bow but I don't, just hunt with a bow. I also hunt with muzzleloader and shotgun. I think this describes about 99% of people who hunt with a bow. I can never understand this Bowhunter vs Gun hunter thing going on. I consider myself a hunter not just bow or gun or crossbow for that matter.

Nother question, So even if I shell out the extra money every yr for a super sport, from what I understand, you will no longer get the extra either sex muzzleloader/bow doe tag. Even though I havent hunted turkey or small game and only get out to fish a few times a yr and pretty much waste money on these features that helps fill the DEC  coffers. Seems like the DEC will be shooting themselves in the foot on this one. Why spend the extra money if you arent atleast guranteed to get atleast one doe tag. Its bad already you shell out 10 dollars for a chance at a doe tag and even with two choices you might not even get one of them and the money isn't returned. Hasn't happend to me yet but It sure would irk the living crap out of me if I forked over 10 dollars and didn't get anything for it. Around here we call that stealing.  Besides how many people fill out all five tags? I think the most I have ever filled in a season is three. And I cannot recall ever killing two bucks in a season. It really doesnt make sense to me ( it is NY i guess) The DEC keeps complaining about not enough hunters and to many deer so they take tags away from hunters? Also the deer population is booming again around where I hunt. Ive seen three seperate doe around my area with three fawns already this yr.

[Doc]

Sorry, I didnt know it was a competition

Yes ..... a lottery is a competition.

[Doc]

Its called picking who gets DMPs for that area that year. A good point was made about it earlier in the thread, gun hunters have always had to deal with the chance of not getting DMPs. Why shouldnt bow hunters have to?

Yes, there are several advantages that bowhunters get over gun hunters including their own season and an either sex tag. There are reasons for all that and that is why we have to fork out additional money for the priviledge of hunting with a bow or muzzleloader. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

Doc, a lottery is not a competition, its a random drawing. The only way to gain advantage in NY DMP lottery is to have preference points (not drawing a DMP in past lotteries). There is no possible way to actively compete for the permits.

Bow or ML license holders will still have the advantage of the extra buck tag and alot of extra time in the woods. Again, you are not guaranteed anything when you buy your license.

[growalot]

WNYBH...of course ppl paying for DMPS intend to use them the point IS how they will divide up hunting time to try and use them...which in turn could possible end up defeating the DEC purpose...like stated above...buy a super sportsman or even the life times....but you don't always get out to fish...squirrel hunt ...and with the late ML/archery...find the time to hunt then when planned...I think that POSSIBLE happens more often than not...all I'm say is think back over the years...it jut may defeat the whole.... we need to manage the doe rearranging tag allotment idea...I think that human nature is when ppl have change they may or may not like they tend to try and manage the situation to still best fit them changing the original results of change anyways...just a thought...doesn't effect me much other than camp hunting

[nyantler]

Sorry, I didnt know it was a competition

Yes ..... a lottery is a competition.

No.. It's a game of chance... with everyone having the same opportunity to get a DMP. A competition pitches one team against another... to see who is better.

[Localqdm]

It was nice in Indiana that if you only wanted to hunt w/bow or mzl you DID NOT have to buy a big game license first and ALSO a bow license.  You paid for a tag in whatever license or multiple license opportunities you wanted.  If NY goes the way discussed, they should give bowhunters and mzldr the opportunity to purchase a tag for that season ONLY and not have to also purchase a 'regular firearms' big game license if they don't want to or are not going to get 2 tags. 

[Doc]

Doc, a lottery is not a competition, its a random drawing. The only way to gain advantage in NY DMP lottery is to have preference points (not drawing a DMP in past lotteries). There is no possible way to actively compete for the permits.

Bow or ML license holders will still have the advantage of the extra buck tag and alot of extra time in the woods. Again, you are not guaranteed anything when you buy your license.

Oh listen to Mr. Dictionary ..... lol. Any time I enter into a game of chance where I have a possibility of losing out to others, its a competition.

And while there are many today who keep trying to tinker with the rules of bow season bow season to make it more like a gun season, there were many good reasons that bowhunters worked for and were granted the benefits and rules that we have today and I am not as eager to throw these hard earned benefits away as some.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Im not going to go round and round on this, if you think its a competition, then thats what you think, facts be damned. 

Please explain how much work you did to earn the right to kill antlerless deer wherever you want with little to no regulation of such. 

[Doc]

Im not going to go round and round on this, if you think its a competition, then thats what you think, facts be damned. 

Please explain how much work you did to earn the right to kill antlerless deer wherever you want with little to no regulation of such. 

I'm glad you have decided to discontinue the dictionary game. I got the feeling you weren't really reading my replies anyway, so that wasn't really going anywhere.

And how does your last question relate to what the bowhunting community has achieved for the sport over the past decades? I'm scratching my head looking for the relevance. Are you implying that if there are any of us that didn't have direct hands-on responsibility for the advances that have been made in bowhunting that we should therefore be deprived of them or that they are somehow invalidated? That certainly would be a strange kind of argument.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Im not going to go round and round on this, if you think its a competition, then thats what you think, facts be damned. 

Please explain how much work you did to earn the right to kill antlerless deer wherever you want with little to no regulation of such. 

I'm glad you have decided to discontinue the dictionary game. I got the feeling you weren't really reading my replies anyway, so that wasn't really going anywhere.

And how does your last question relate to what the bowhunting community has achieved for the sport over the past decades? I'm scratching my head looking for the relevance. Are you implying that if there are any of us that didn't have direct hands-on responsibility for the advances that have been made in bowhunting that we should therefore be deprived of them or that they are somehow invalidated? That certainly would be a strange kind of argument.

It was tongue in cheek.

I wasnt playing any "dictionary game", a lottery simply is not a competition, and I get a bit testy when I hear people making hunting into any type of competition. Its 100% unnecessary.

[Chevy]

It seems to me that lately we are all competing for the same season dates. Everyone wants to take archery season.

Kids and teachers and the like needed a saturday opener so they took the last weekend of archery season away in 2005, gun hunters want to legalize cross bows so they can infultrate archery season time, muzzleloader hunters are pushing for a special season during archery time, kids need a special gun season during archery time...ect....ect...

So yes it is a competition. We who enjoy archery season are just playing defense. 

[Doc]

It was tongue in cheek.

I wasnt playing any "dictionary game", a lottery simply is not a competition, and I get a bit testy when I hear people making hunting into any type of competition. Its 100% unnecessary.

Sorry, but that is exactly what any game of chance that involves winners and losers is.... competition. You don't have to like it but then it wasn't me that devised the system that turns DMP issuance into a game of chance where all hunters compete for for the right to hunt does.

[SteveB]

A system where all hunters have a chance for the right to hunt does.

Sounds fair to me.

[Doc]

It seems to me that lately we are all competing for the same season dates. Everyone wants to take archery season.

Kids and teachers and the like needed a saturday opener so they took the last weekend of archery season away in 2005, gun hunters want to legalize cross bows so they can infultrate archery season time, muzzleloader hunters are pushing for a special season during archery time, kids need a special gun season during archery time...ect....ect...

So yes it is a competition. We who enjoy archery season are just playing defense.

Lol..... The archery season and all that it contains certainly does seem to be the prize that everyone all of a sudden seems to want. It has made a prime target lately.

[Doc]

A system where all hunters have a chance for the right to hunt does.

Sounds fair to me.

Well, that's partly true. Of course everyone seems to want to ignore my comment about the traditional "over-rejection" that has permits almost free for the grabbing that occurs after the lottery closes and is always after bow season has long been underway. So maybe the chance at those permits is not quite as equal.

[SteveB]

Most of those are in areas at or near 100% issurance for all applicants.

Rates should even be a little higher by factoring in the reduction of the bow/mz antlerless.

That said, the deadline should be moved so the opportunity is equal for all hunters.

[Doc]

Most of those are in areas at or near 100% issurance for all applicants.

Rates should even be a little higher by factoring in the reduction of the bow/mz antlerless.

That said, the deadline should be moved so the opportunity is equal for all hunters.

It doesn't matter. There is a certain rejection rate assumed when the lottery is set up (otherwise it wouldn't be a lottery would it?). So there are some percentage of hunters that will get rejected simply because it is a lottery system. In fact, hunting in 8N which is always "high" in terms of chances to be drawn, I have had several years when I did not get selected, and I also know others who have had the same thing happen. It was just the nature of a lottery. And then there was the traditional permit "give-away" after the lottery finally closes. And by the way, there were a lot of WMUs that had that "over-rejection" thing going. For bowhunters without the either/or tag, most of their season would be spent without the ability to take a doe even though there were really plenty of permits that the DEC wanted taken.

As far as changing the closing date for the lottery, that probably won't be happening.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

As long as we are rearranging the whole system....wouldn't it make more sense to move the valid license dates? Why have the new license year on October 1st. Heck...make it June or July to coincide with the federal duck stamps....lol. then I don't have to carry multiple pieces of paper while duck hunting. It would give plenty of time to evaluate last years take....set quotas.....and issue licenses and have a second Doe Permit drawing....all in time for the NZ bow opener.