Multi shot assault crossbow

[Hunter007]

2 hours ago, Otto said:

Quick derailment........ I must have missed something somewhere....what happened to NY Bowhunters?  Did they disband or something put them under? 

It is a Numbers game,  crossbow  popularity is increasing,  they probably getting pushed aside just like recurve did when compounds came out .

 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Storm914

[wolc123]

2 hours ago, Otto said:

Quick derailment........ I must have missed something somewhere....what happened to NY Bowhunters?  Did they disband or something put them under? 

Their website has been down for months.   As far as the crossbow controversy goes, I would like to see the current restrictions on limb width and draw weight kept in place because they do keep some reasonable upper limits on what a crossbow could achieve.   At the same time, crossbows should be classified as "archery equipment", and the archery course should be required to hunt with them.   The early archery season season southern zone structure ought to be split as follows:  "Traditional" (recurve and longbow only) opening October 1, and "Modern" (compound and crossbow) opening October 15.  Gun and ML/late archery seasons are ok as is.  

My biggest issue with the current seasons are with the selfish, elitist "compound-only" users who seek to keep the crossbows out of "their" private,  time.   I have no problem with the "traditionalists", as the season structure I suggested clearly indicates.   

[Hunter007]

1 hour ago, wolc123 said:

Their website has been down for months.   As far as the crossbow controversy goes, I would like to see the current restrictions on limb width and draw weight kept in place because they do keep some reasonable upper limits on what a crossbow could achieve.   At the same time, crossbows should be classified as "archery equipment", and the archery course should be required to hunt with them.   The early archery season season southern zone structure ought to be split as follows:  "Traditional" (recurve and longbow only) opening October 1, and "Modern" (compound and crossbow) opening October 15.  Gun and ML/late archery seasons are ok as is.  

My biggest issue with the current seasons are with the selfish, elitist "compound-only" users who seek to keep the crossbows out of "their" private,  time.   I have no problem with the "traditionalists", as the season structure I suggested clearly indicates.   

Those restrictions,  They don't make sense for recurve crossbows. Who  ever wrote it was ill-informed .  For example 

This recurve crossbow has a draw weight of 270 ib 

But only gets speeds of 335 fps 

The physics of a recurve crossbow simply don't allow them to get as powerful as a compound crossbow even with much more draw weight. 

http://www.excaliburcrossbow.com/crossbows/micro-335/

 

 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Storm914

[Otto]

On 3/22/2019 at 2:22 PM, WNYBuckHunter said:

 Im glad NYB was neutered, they had the ear of too many politicians, and they carried along with them a ton of misinformation and elitist views.

This was the statement I was referring to.  Sounds like more than a website not working?  

[wolc123]

4 hours ago, Otto said:

This was the statement I was referring to.  Sounds like more than a website not working?  

Possibly, age has taken its toll.  Many of the members may have worn out their shoulders, etc, and have therefore decided to give up their NYB memberships and their fight against the crossbows.     I can not find anything on-line that indicates why their forum has been down for so long.     

Reading the NYB "stance against the crossbow", that can still be seen on the remains of their website, is rather comical.  The fella mentions "increased wounding rate with crossbows".  That directly contradicts my own personal experience, which has been 100% kill (4/4 and all dead within 40 yards with an entry-level crossbow, compared to something significantly less with a vertical bow).  In reality, a wounded deer is far less likely with a crossbow because with that weapon, the deer never gets a chance to glimpse the hunter making the draw.  Eliminating that fast movement of the draw, with the animal in close, greatly reduces the chances of making a bad (wounding) shot.     When a deer gets that glimpse of the draw, they immediately transform to a state of "high-alert", which makes "string jump" a far bigger concern.   A relaxed deer is much more likely to be in the same spot when the bolt strikes as it was when it was released. 

I believe that the real reason for the apparent demise of the NYB forum is that their opposition to the crossbow is based primarily on the selfish elitism of a small group of "compound-only" archers.   Folks can only be "hoodwinked" for so long.       

Edited March 24, 2019 by wolc123

[Five Seasons]

On 3/22/2019 at 3:16 PM, WNYBuckHunter said:

Personally I think the width and weight restrictions are dumb. Im not one to tell others what they can and cant use, but honestly I think the multi shot thing is too far, and automatic cocking should be reserved for those with disabilities. Thats just my opinion.

man you contradict yourself in that statement. I do know what you mean, but it's precisely the issue at hand. Where's the line and who gets to draw it?

[WNYBuckHunter]

On 3/24/2019 at 6:07 AM, Doc said:

Ha-ha-ha.... is that considered a personal attack? Sure sounds like it, doesn't it, Mr. Moderator.

My point is that both you and the animal rights people seem to share the same goals of destroying organized archery. I mean it's not like you had any plans to replace the organization you are celebrating the destruction of. Your argument now has been clarified to apparently leave all hunting in a state of disarray and disorganization with no advocacy groups ("Special interest groups" as you call them). I am simply pointing out that that is exactly the stance that animal-rights activists have.

By the way, I have not said anything negative about anyone having opinions. I guess the point I was making went over your head. I am simply disputing your idea that your lone opinion has any effectiveness in terms of regulating the features of any future crossbow designs, or any other useful ideas. When crossbow features cross the line, who is going to be the one to stop it? ....... You and your opinion?? Your lone opinion simply carries no weight with the DEC or any legislators without a well organized political body behind it. How do you think that NYB was so successful at holding off the invasion of the crossbow. They had you stopped in your tracks until you all finally formed a "special interest group" of your own. Your kind of "lone wolf" dissention will never have any impact on the evolution of the crossbow or anything that involves hunting. There is not one thing that has been accomplished for hunting that did not have an organization behind it and that includes every bit of the evolution and popularity of bow season that we enjoy today. I know you have the notion that all you have to do is will the technological inventions to stop where you want them to and somehow they will magically cease simply because they run afoul of your opinions. But seriously, without some governing body, pushing for the definitions of what goes into bow season in an organized fashion, the bow season will continue to lose its identity and those that are well-enough organized will simply shoe-horn their way in, with or without your consent.

Not a personal attack at all, just an observation.

I dont care what your opinion is of my opinion honestly.

I have no issues with organizations helping to influence bills, etc, but when theres an organization out there that spews misinformation, they should be called out on it. NYB was called out and things have gone on from there. The time that they stood side by side with the animal rights people, plus their elitist views are what got them to where they are now.

As far as technological changes go, of course things are going to progress. Its up to the DEC and the legislators to set the regulations to open up or limit features that are allowed to be used during the season.

[WNYBuckHunter]

On 3/25/2019 at 9:38 AM, Belo said:

man you contradict yourself in that statement. I do know what you mean, but it's precisely the issue at hand. Where's the line and who gets to draw it?

Im not contradicting myself at all, just giving my opinion on that feature. I wouldnt tell anyone what they can or cant use though, as long as its legal, I could care less. Wont affect my hunting.

[Doc]

22 hours ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Not a personal attack at all, just an observation.

I dont care what your opinion is of my opinion honestly.

I have no issues with organizations helping to influence bills, etc, but when theres an organization out there that spews misinformation, they should be called out on it. NYB was called out and things have gone on from there. The time that they stood side by side with the animal rights people, plus their elitist views are what got them to where they are now.

As far as technological changes go, of course things are going to progress. Its up to the DEC and the legislators to set the regulations to open up or limit features that are allowed to be used during the season.

So apparently anyone can make any "observation" that they want and it will not be considered to be a personal attack. So much for the term "personal attack".

To my knowledge, NYB never stood side by side with any animal rights people and your claim is simply a false statement that I guess you hope strengthens your attempts to disarm and destroy bowhunter representation and advocacy. I guess misinformation is ok as long as you are the one spewing it.  

In terms of the DEC and legislators setting limits, the only advocacy group for that sort of thing is at a minimum crippled, apparently much to your delight as well as stated purpose of the animal rights groups. So technological advances will be set only by those with a financial stake in stretching those limits as far as they want.

You know that if you and the others that had such horrible problem with the NYB had put your time and energy into joining and changing those views that you had difficulty with, perhaps you might have actually made the organization even stronger and suited to the needs that you felt entitled to. But how much easier it is to sit back and snipe at the organization until now we have no advocacy at all. But that would have meant putting your time and energy where your mouth is. You all have done the animal rights people a marvelous service. You deserve a big thank you from them.

 

[airedale]

On 3/24/2019 at 8:10 AM, Otto said:

Quick derailment........ I must have missed something somewhere....what happened to NY Bowhunters?  Did they disband or something put them under? 

NY Bowhunters is alive and well, the annual banquet is May 4 and I just purchased two banquet raffle tickets that came with the current FullDraw  publication. I checked the website and that seems to be working and running ok for me.

Al

newyorkbowhunters.com/

[dbHunterNY]

19 minutes ago, Doc said:

So apparently anyone can make any "observation" that they want and it will not be considered to be a personal attack. So much for the term "personal attack".

To my knowledge, NYB never stood side by side with any animal rights people and your claim is simply a false statement that I guess you hope strengthens your attempts to disarm and destroy bowhunter representation and advocacy. I guess misinformation is ok as long as you are the one spewing it.  

In terms of the DEC and legislators setting limits, the only advocacy group for that sort of thing is at a minimum crippled, apparently much to your delight as well as stated purpose of the animal rights groups. So technological advances will be set only by those with a financial stake in stretching those limits as far as they want.

You know that if you and the others that had such horrible problem with the NYB had put your time and energy into joining and changing those views that you had difficulty with, perhaps you might have actually made the organization even stronger and suited to the needs that you felt entitled to. But how much easier it is to sit back and snipe at the organization until now we have no advocacy at all. But that would have meant putting your time and energy where your mouth is. You all have done the animal rights people a marvelous service. You deserve a big thank you from them.

 

i don't really have the need to argue but i'll state my opinion here on this. i think crossbows are the future that will keep bowhunting alive. vertical bows are here to stay but they are a limited crowd. license holders same as population is expected to be less as the baby boomer generation grows older. in that group you have those older getting worn out or young with injury that have problems drawing vertical bows to deter them from participating. add in pressure on hunting and guns from those that oppose it. archery is easier accepted. youth recruitment into hunting is paramount in todays world if you care anything at all about hunting. youths can't draw bows that easily (especially girls). even new hunters that are fully developed adults will battle the learning curve of a vertical bow, especially when on stand versus just shooting in their backyard or at a range.  crossbows i see keeps them ahead of the curve when it comes to skill or ability required to go afield with archery gear.  if NY Bowhunters org doesn't acknowledge this they're just capping themselves in the knees, even if they don't go away.  deer die the same way from a crossbow, the means of sending the arrow is still the same, and the potential energy is still stored used your own power. even if cranked to cock due to some deficiency compared to your normally capable adult, they could otherwise cock the bow without the crank. multiple arrows don't care. anyone that bowhunts with any regularity knows this isn't going to change the game much as long as you're not sending hail marys through the woods.

[Doc]

23 hours ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Im not contradicting myself at all, just giving my opinion on that feature. I wouldnt tell anyone what they can or cant use though, as long as its legal, I could care less. Wont affect my hunting.

So when you label something as being "too far", I guess it is not so far that you would ever do anything about it, or actually take any real positions against it. Is that what makes it a mere "opinion" and not an actual "personal belief"?

I am curious as to what about those features makes them "too far" in your mind. What makes the "repeating" feature disqualify that contraption as a bona fide crossbow for hunting? I'm just curious what crosses the line for different people.

 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

49 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

To my knowledge, NYB never stood side by side with any animal rights people and your claim is simply a false statement that I guess you hope strengthens your attempts to disarm and destroy bowhunter representation and advocacy. I guess misinformation is ok as long as you are the one spewing it.  

 

You are wrong Doc. They lined up hand in hand to oppose the Youth gun hunt for deer.  Sure they had different motives but they sure carried the same messages. 

 

[wolc123]

On 3/22/2019 at 2:22 PM, WNYBuckHunter said:

. Im glad NYB was neutered, they had the ear of too many politicians, and they carried along with them a ton of misinformation and elitist views.

 

On 3/26/2019 at 10:13 AM, WNYBuckHunter said:

 NYB was called out and things have gone on from there. The time that they stood side by side with the animal rights people, plus their elitist views are what got them to where they are now.

 

27 minutes ago, airedale said:

NY Bowhunters is alive and well, the annual banquet is May 4 and I just purchased two banquet raffle tickets that came with the current FullDraw  publication. I checked the website and that seems to be working and running ok for me.

Al

newyorkbowhunters.com/

We are getting mixed messages here.   The NY Bowhunters website works but the forum has been down for months and still is.   Does "neutered" mean taking away forum ?    Their misinformation filled "stance against crossbows" is still there on their website.  The specific "misinformation" I am referring to is the "increased wounding rate with the crossbow".  Nothing could be further from the truth than that.   

It appears that the NYB stance was/is almost entirely founded upon selfish elitism.   Their stand against the special youth gun weekend is another clear indication of that.   

Edited March 27, 2019 by wolc123

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

i don't really have the need to argue but i'll state my opinion here on this. i think crossbows are the future that will keep bowhunting alive. vertical bows are here to stay but they are a limited crowd. license holders same as population is expected to be less as the baby boomer generation grows older. in that group you have those older getting worn out or young with injury that have problems drawing vertical bows to deter them from participating. add in pressure on hunting and guns from those that oppose it. archery is easier accepted. youth recruitment into hunting is paramount in todays world if you care anything at all about hunting. youths can't draw bows that easily (especially girls). even new hunters that are fully developed adults will battle the learning curve of a vertical bow, especially when on stand versus just shooting in their backyard or at a range.  crossbows i see keeps them ahead of the curve when it comes to skill or ability required to go afield with archery gear.  if NY Bowhunters org doesn't acknowledge this they're just capping themselves in the knees, even if they don't go away.  deer die the same way from a crossbow, the means of sending the arrow is still the same, and the potential energy is still stored used your own power. even if cranked to cock due to some deficiency compared to your normally capable adult, they could otherwise cock the bow without the crank. multiple arrows don't care. anyone that bowhunts with any regularity knows this isn't going to change the game much as long as you're not sending hail marys through the woods.

I agree with you that crossbows will continue to replace vertical bows as time goes on, but not for the reasons that you are thinking. Over the years that I have been in bowhunting, I have watched the evolution of bowhunters towards their sport. The season was established because some hunters wanted to put extreme challenge into their hunting, and wanted a season that accommodated that. From the day it was established, bowhunters have begun a campaign to eliminate  that challenge. It didn't stop with the invention of the release. The old Allen Compound didn't satisfy the need to remove challenge. The new versions of compounds have not eliminated the need to remove challenge. And the current inclusion will not eliminate the quest for easier, more fool-proof, quicker versions of killing deer during bow season. But every technological move has been in the same direction. No one can dispute that. The compound and crossbow are just extreme examples of that. It has nothing to do with age or aching muscles, it is just a caving in to challenge and a quest for easier kills. More is coming and it seems much faster as engineers work more frenetically to push technology as far as they can.

As the longbow and recurve have diminished, so will all forms of vertical bows. And so you are correct. The crossbow is the new generation of bowhunting that will replace much of what the old bow season was created for.

[Doc]

10 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

You are wrong Doc. They lined up hand in hand to oppose the Youth gun hunt for deer.  Sure they had different motives but they sure carried the same messages. 

 

They were never against the youth gun hunt, just the location of the season concurrent with bow season. And by the way, as an aside for those that claim that guns will never take over any parts of bow season, let it be known that that move shows that the DEC has no qualms about introducing firearms into any part of bow season that they wish.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Just now, Doc said:

They were never against the youth gun hunt, just the location of the season concurrent with bow season. And by the way, as an aside for those that claim that guns will never take over any parts of bow season, let it be known that that move shows that the DEC has no qualms about introducing firearms into any part of bow season that they wish.

So they were ok with a gun youth hunt as long as it was in gun season. That your point? 

[Doc]

11 minutes ago, wolc123 said:

It appears that the NYB stance was/is almost entirely founded upon selfish elitism.   Their stand against the special youth gun weekend is another clear indication of that.   

This term elitism. Are you crossbow advocates ready to accept that term thrown at you when the gunners start using it towards you as you try to keep them out of your season. After all you too are excluding people from that season. And so I would guess the elite moniker applies equally. 

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

So they were ok with a gun youth hunt as long as it was in gun season. That your point? 

There were plenty of bow hunters who were concerned about the safety of mixing guns with bows. Frankly, I still skip those days of bowhunting myself because I feel real nervous about going afield in full camo while there are deer hunters out there of any sort.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Just now, Doc said:

There were plenty of bow hunters who were concerned about the safety of mixing guns with bows. Frankly, I still skip those days of bowhunting myself because I feel real nervous about going afield in full camo while there are deer hunters out there of any sort.

You should try it. I hunt those days and have yet to hear a shot. Given that logic do you stay out of the woods any time there are concurrent firearms seasons?

[Doc]

11 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

You should try it. I hunt those days and have yet to hear a shot. Given that logic do you stay out of the woods any time there are concurrent firearms seasons?

In fact I do. My hunting is done primarily on state land and while I agree that the youth season does not seem to be participated in the way that advocates were indicating, the state parking lot still looks like there are some participants. Even where muzzleloaders are mixed in with bowhunting, I usually skip those opportunities. I really don't like intermingling bowhunting with any kind of firearms. That whole idea simply means that I would feel required to put down my camo and deck myself in full blaze orange. By the way, even though much of the gun season makes you wonder if there are any gun hunters out there , I still am dressed in head to toe blaze orange. So hunter density does not change my opinion of intermixing gun and bow. NYB had the same opinion. No one said that there should be no youth hunt.

 

Edited March 27, 2019 by Doc

[Culvercreek hunt club]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

In fact I do. My hunting is done primarily on state land and while I agree that the youth season does not seem to be participated in the way that advocates were indicating, the state parking lot still looks like there are some participants. Even where muzzleloaders are mixed in with bowhunting, I usually skip those opportunities. I really don't like intermingling bowhunting with any kind of firearms. That whole idea simply means that I feel required to put down my camo and deck myself in full camo. By the way, even though much of the gun season makes you wonder if there are any gun hunters out there , I still am dressed in head to toe blaze orange. So hunter density does not change my opinion of intermixing gun and bow. NYB had the same opinion. No one said that there should be no youth hunt.

 

Or the opponents were fearful of...

Do you remember the "Critical- Red Alert" email they sent out opposing it? SO if it was only during "their" bow season that they didn't want it, when DID they want it? 

With small game seasons, turkey season and predator seasons open during bow you must wear orange during all bow season?

[Doc]

Well not to get too far off topic, I do not assign the same level of danger to a squirrel hunter as I do to a deer hunter simply based on the size of the prey, and the potency and shot distance of the weapons used.

And yes, we have always considered bow season to be "Our season". It was hard fought for by those who came before us and has always been considered worthy of preserving (until recently). Apparently the DEC considers bow season to be a  catch-all for things that they can't figure out any other place to stick things. 

But to answer your question, there is a whole month of September when there are no bowhunters in the woods.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Well not to get too far off topic, I do not assign the same level of danger to a squirrel hunter as I do to a deer hunter simply based on the size of the prey, and the potency and shot distance of the weapons used.
And yes, we have always considered bow season to be "Our season". It was hard fought for by those who came before us and has always been considered worthy of preserving (until recently). Apparently the DEC considers bow season to be a  catch-all for things that they can't figure out any other place to stick things. 
But to answer your question, there is a whole month of September when there are no bowhunters in the woods.

I didn’t see NYB push for a September date. If I recall the very same year the youth was added so was the October 1st date for Archery. I would have been fine with a September date but I can also see the benefit of having it happen when the temps are not quite as hot and when the processing facilities are actually open. I almost always hunt that early portion of the season in Rush and Henrietta area. I just haven’t heard the shooting to give me safety concerns.

[Doc]

It was not the place of NYB to push FOR any date for a youth hunt. Their charter and purpose was and is to protect what is deemed by the membership to be good for bowhunting. They were trying to do their job.

Let me take a moment to mention the reality that I will likely never agree in lock-step with everything that NYB does just as I don't agree with everything the NRA does or SCOPE or any of the advocacy groups that I belong to. I do not expect every one of these groups to agree with all of my stances, but I do understand the value of having representation as a political entity that overall does represent the welfare and political presence of activities that I participate in. I am not one to accept all the benefits and then turn around and whine about some position that I may not agree with, without even offering at least an objection. The proper response is to work from within to change those things that I do not agree with and support those things that I do agree with.

I fully understand that there are well financed organizations that would do away with our guns and hunting and bowhunting that are well organized and working diligently every day to wipe out the activities that I am a part of. And I fully understand that to sit around and carp about certain individual stances without so much as a letter of dissention is something that is all too popular today.