It begins again

[Core]

5 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

but the ratings are apples to apples, No? the compounds don't hit the advertised speeds either. My 370 isn't close once I put all the bells and whistles on it. The energy is another issue since most of the crossbows are tossing a heavier projectile that most compound shooters. But at teh ranges most of us shoot how important is KE? It would be akin to comparing how far and ought 6 bullet went when it went through a deer compared to a 300 WinMag. 

I seem to recall having my xbow read last year and I think it was doing about 340 and like you said that's a 400+ grain projectile. My 315 IBO bow only shoots around 240 or so. 29" draw, 60 lbs, also around 400 grain.

As for KE, I can tell you of the half dozen deer I've hit with my vertical I've never had a pass through, and of the three I've hit with xbow all had pass throughs. That's the benefit of KE

[Core]

2 hours ago, wolc123 said:

The Navy base study on recovery rates that Culver posted, for mechanical vs fixed broadheads, finally shed some non-biased light on that subject.  I was not at all surprised to see that crossbows with mechanical broadheads came out on top, when it comes to recovery percentage, compared to crossbows with fixed, or vertical bows with fixed or mechanical broadheads. 

That study agreed with my own personal experience, which has been 100 % recovery with crossbow/mechanical (4 for 4), but significantly less with vertical bow fixed and mechanical.   I have yet to try a fixed broadhead on a deer with my crossbow, and probably will not after reading that study.    There is no question for me, that the crossbow is less likely to result in a non-recovered deer.

There is no limit to the pre-concieved notions floating around on the internet, but seldom do we see such a scientific, non-biased, fact-based study results posted.     

I also have had 100% recovery 3/3 on the xbow. It simply causes more damage when it hits, accuracy/shot placement aside. So when not doing a double-lung due to a dubious hit, that's what you want.

[nyslowhand]

Per recent email from NYCC; outlining their plan for Xbow bill in 2020 legislative session:

Resubmit exact same 2019 bill and hope for a different outcome..

[BizCT]

Crazy how border states have different rules, start times, seasons....CT allows feeding (although not during season), different dates, etc.


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There are 1 or 2 zones in CT that allow baiting during hunting seasons. Fairfield county is one of them.


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[stubborn1VT]

Xbows for everyone next year in Vermont, along with a bunch more major changes all at once.  The state does a 10 year deer "plan".  Oh boy.  I may have to head to NY next season when VT goes to one buck!

[Five Seasons]

9 hours ago, nyslowhand said:

Per recent email from NYCC; outlining their plan for Xbow bill in 2020 legislative session:

Resubmit exact same 2019 bill and hope for a different outcome..

i stopped writing checks to NYB because of poor leadership. Y'all might want to consider doing the same.

[Core]

1 hour ago, stubborn1VT said:

Xbows for everyone next year in Vermont, along with a bunch more major changes all at once.  The state does a 10 year deer "plan".  Oh boy.  I may have to head to NY next season when VT goes to one buck!

I have more tags than I can fill in Western NY. Bow tag, regular season tag, two DMPs. I'm forgetting some in there, it's possible to get like a half dozen deer or so without even getting other people's DMPs

[fasteddie]

39 minutes ago, Belo said:

i stopped writing checks to NYB because of poor leadership. Y'all might want to consider doing the same.

I never belonged to NYB but got emails asking me to join . Even so , I still don't support full inclusion . I like the seasons how they are now . Crossbows come in at the right time as it is ...... When something works , don't fix it !

 

[stubborn1VT]

7 hours ago, Core said:

I have more tags than I can fill in Western NY. Bow tag, regular season tag, two DMPs. I'm forgetting some in there, it's possible to get like a half dozen deer or so without even getting other people's DMPs

Should be able to shoot 3 deer, possibly 4 with the new changes, but only ONE buck.  I don't need to shoot more than one, but I'd really like to keep hunting bucks.  Worst case scenario, I shoot a buck during bow season and won't be able to rifle hunt in VT at all.  Lame.  Either have to pass all bucks during archery season, or not hunt during rifle season.  They claim it's a management strategy, but the very small percentage of folks who kill 2 bucks a year aren't going to make or break their management plans.  

Mostly, I don't like change, which is probably selfish.  I'm not worried about being able to fill the freezer, I just prefer to shoot bucks.  Haven't taken a doe in 11 years.

[wolc123]

14 hours ago, stubborn1VT said:

Should be able to shoot 3 deer, possibly 4 with the new changes, but only ONE buck.  I don't need to shoot more than one, but I'd really like to keep hunting bucks.  Worst case scenario, I shoot a buck during bow season and won't be able to rifle hunt in VT at all.  Lame.  Either have to pass all bucks during archery season, or not hunt during rifle season.  They claim it's a management strategy, but the very small percentage of folks who kill 2 bucks a year aren't going to make or break their management plans.  

Mostly, I don't like change, which is probably selfish.  I'm not worried about being able to fill the freezer, I just prefer to shoot bucks.  Haven't taken a doe in 11 years.

I also prefer to kill bucks because they are a lot easier and faster for me to process.  Does always contain a much higher percentage of body fat.  That is responsible for much of the "gamey" flavor that folks complain about with venison.  It takes a lot more time and effort for me to trim that away on a doe.  Unfortunately, NY state only allows two bucks per hunter (one bow one gun) and my family of (4) consumes (4) average sized deer per year.  Since I am the only hunter in the family, that usually means one or two of them needs to be a doe (I am very thankful that dmp tags are good on button bucks).   

I would really love to see NY offer three buck tags, to those who purchase archery, gun, and ML licences.   I never feel real good about killing a doe, because I know it will keep me from killing any future male offspring, and because I know it will cost me hours  of lost time trimming fat.    I know that it is necessary to kill does, to keep numbers in check, so I make that sacrifice and put in the time.   By contrast, every buck killed is a joyous event with no bad feelings whatsoever, regardless of antler size.   A button buck is a specially valued "prize" because it does not cost me a buck tag and it has eating quality second to none.     

Edited September 7, 2019 by wolc123

[mike103]

Full inclusion would be good but I would rather have the 200lb draw weight and 17” limb tip to tip restrictions removed.

[mike103]

 Not that I’m spending $2,400 on a new bow.

[dbHunterNY]

On 9/7/2019 at 6:57 AM, wolc123 said:

I also prefer to kill bucks because they are a lot easier and faster for me to process.  Does always contain a much higher percentage of body fat.  That is responsible for much of the "gamey" flavor that folks complain about with venison.  It takes a lot more time and effort for me to trim that away on a doe.  Unfortunately, NY state only allows two bucks per hunter (one bow one gun) and my family of (4) consumes (4) average sized deer per year.  Since I am the only hunter in the family, that usually means one or two of them needs to be a doe (I am very thankful that dmp tags are good on button bucks).   

I would really love to see NY offer three buck tags, to those who purchase archery, gun, and ML licences.   I never feel real good about killing a doe, because I know it will keep me from killing any future male offspring, and because I know it will cost me hours  of lost time trimming fat.    I know that it is necessary to kill does, to keep numbers in check, so I make that sacrifice and put in the time.   By contrast, every buck killed is a joyous event with no bad feelings whatsoever, regardless of antler size.   A button buck is a specially valued "prize" because it does not cost me a buck tag and it has eating quality second to none.     

i processed a button buck once that got hit by a car right in front of the house. perfect blow to the head and neck only. that seemed like just as much work as a mature doe yet yielded about half the venison i'd normally get even with trimming all that fat off. forget a middle aged buck or even a 2.5 yr old all together from that comparison or it'd be laughable. for that reason alone i'd never knowingly shoot a button buck. likely cautious enough not to shoot one period. forget antler size. as a meat hunter it defies logic to me why you wouldn't recruit another hunter to your ranks, share time together in the woods, and have every goal to shoot adult deer to optimize the living breathing meat you've got roaming the country side you hunt for anything or anyone else with a mouth and taste for venison. not saying what you're doing is wrong. it's just even with the liberties of where you are i don't really get it.

[dbHunterNY]

On 9/6/2019 at 4:28 PM, stubborn1VT said:

Should be able to shoot 3 deer, possibly 4 with the new changes, but only ONE buck.  I don't need to shoot more than one, but I'd really like to keep hunting bucks.  Worst case scenario, I shoot a buck during bow season and won't be able to rifle hunt in VT at all.  Lame.  Either have to pass all bucks during archery season, or not hunt during rifle season.  They claim it's a management strategy, but the very small percentage of folks who kill 2 bucks a year aren't going to make or break their management plans.  

Mostly, I don't like change, which is probably selfish.  I'm not worried about being able to fill the freezer, I just prefer to shoot bucks.  Haven't taken a doe in 11 years.

i don't get it if you don't normally shoot two bucks then you're not out on actual opportunity. if you shoot a buck early we'd all assume you're more than happy with taking it. you'll have tags allowing you to still be hunting. if you want to buck hunt do what others do for turkey. take a less experienced out and get them on a buck. it's not much different than you hunting finding one for yourself.

[stubborn1VT]

34 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

i don't get it if you don't normally shoot two bucks then you're not out on actual opportunity. if you shoot a buck early we'd all assume you're more than happy with taking it. you'll have tags allowing you to still be hunting. if you want to buck hunt do what others do for turkey. take a less experienced out and get them on a buck. it's not much different than you hunting finding one for yourself.

Never said that I don't shoot 2 bucks.  Making it illegal to take two bucks IS a loss of actual opportunity.  If I shot an archery buck then it would be illegal for me to participate in the rifle season.  I can deal with not killing two bucks.  I am mightily pissed to not be able to keep hunting bucks. 

I don't mind taking people turkey hunting, but I deer hunt alone. It just seems foolish to penalize the very small percentage of hunters who take 2 bucks.  As a management strategy it will have a very small impact on the overall age structure.  The only other goal of the change is to force hunters to kill does ( or as a byproduct - force hunters out of the state).  Seems like change for the sake of change, and copycatting states with vastly different deer herds.  Part of this complaint also stems from the many other significant changes they will roll out, all at once, in 2020.

[dbHunterNY]

2 minutes ago, stubborn1VT said:

Never said that I don't shoot 2 bucks.  Making it illegal to take two bucks IS a loss of actual opportunity.  If I shot an archery buck then it would be illegal for me to participate in the rifle season.  I can deal with not killing two bucks.  I am mightily pissed to not be able to keep hunting bucks. 

I don't mind taking people turkey hunting, but I deer hunt alone. It just seems foolish to penalize the very small percentage of hunters who take 2 bucks.  As a management strategy it will have a very small impact on the overall age structure.  The only other goal of the change is to force hunters to kill does ( or as a byproduct - force hunters out of the state).  Seems like change for the sake of change, and copycatting states with vastly different deer herds.  Part of this complaint also stems from the many other significant changes they will roll out, all at once, in 2020.

hunters will almost never kill a doe just to fill a tag if they think doe shouldn't be shot. each change has a specific goal in mind. one buck only would have a significant impact, how much would be the question. to a degree it may make you voluntarily pass a buck you'd otherwise shoot as long as you had a chance at another. any passed opportunity comes with a possibility that you might not get another. more so i know of a lot of hunters who take the first simply okay buck for the freezer and then "hunt for a big one" despite never seeing one that trips their trigger for the rest of the season. one buck limit makes many only shoot a buck that's up near their top threshold in age and size that meets a balance of what they want vs what they think is possibly around to present an opportunity. if a buck dies at the end of the season it's not getting any older. still it was around to create competition for doe. i don't think it'll have as much of an impact on age structure as other methods but it will have an impact.

[stubborn1VT]

I think you have a sound grasp of management strategies.  I question your understanding of hunter motivations ( as well as your lack of capitalization). So what is your take on the hunters who take an OK buck and keep hunting for a bigger one?  What's wrong with that?  According to you, it generally has the same result.  I'm not a fan of batches of changes for the sake of change.  Vermont isn't Iowa, Pennsylvania, or ever New York.  I understand the biology behind some of the changes, but mostly it seems unnecessary.  

Going to one buck, adding crossbows for everyone, adding an early muzzleloader season, shooting SOME spikehorns, and adding early bow seasons for high population areas all at once, seems foolish, drastic and unscientific.  All of these changes were passed despite hunter input.  Regardless, reducing my hunting opportunity doesn't make me love my home state.

[stubborn1VT]

Looked it up.  Based on 2017 numbers, a total of 375 hunters took 2 bucks that season.  That doesn't justify the change IMO.

[G-Man]

2 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

hunters will almost never kill a doe just to fill a tag if they think doe shouldn't be shot. each change has a specific goal in mind. one buck only would have a significant impact, how much would be the question. to a degree it may make you voluntarily pass a buck you'd otherwise shoot as long as you had a chance at another. any passed opportunity comes with a possibility that you might not get another. more so i know of a lot of hunters who take the first simply okay buck for the freezer and then "hunt for a big one" despite never seeing one that trips their trigger for the rest of the season. one buck limit makes many only shoot a buck that's up near their top threshold in age and size that meets a balance of what they want vs what they think is possibly around to present an opportunity. if a buck dies at the end of the season it's not getting any older. still it was around to create competition for doe. i don't think it'll have as much of an impact on age structure as other methods but it will have an impact.

One buck would not have an impact at all .. there are several hundred thousand hunters with only 60k or so bucks shot so we dont even take 1 buck per hunter now. The only way to make significant impact is to shorten gun season and or split it. ,any state quoted about in this thread has a 7day  to 2 week season. Or are split into a 5 day and 7 day.. that reduced pressure let's bucks live. As stated elsewhere in this thread most deer are shot in 1st 3 days .. so why keep hunting for a buck if they lived they will be a year older.  And we should shit down season during prime rut..that will let many buck survive for the following year

[wolc123]

5 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

i processed a button buck once that got hit by a car right in front of the house. perfect blow to the head and neck only. that seemed like just as much work as a mature doe yet yielded about half the venison i'd normally get even with trimming all that fat off. forget a middle aged buck or even a 2.5 yr old all together from that comparison or it'd be laughable. for that reason alone i'd never knowingly shoot a button buck. likely cautious enough not to shoot one period. forget antler size. as a meat hunter it defies logic to me why you wouldn't recruit another hunter to your ranks, share time together in the woods, and have every goal to shoot adult deer to optimize the living breathing meat you've got roaming the country side you hunt for anything or anyone else with a mouth and taste for venison. not saying what you're doing is wrong. it's just even with the liberties of where you are i don't really get it.

There is quite a variation in the size of button bucks.  I rarely shoot the little ones.  The one that I killed last year with my crossbow yielded more boneless meat than many of the mature does that I have processed during gun season.  Very little fat, and no gun shot damage conserves meat.  That was the first one I shot since 2012, and I actually thought it was a mature doe at the time.   I was happy to find out that it was not, because, like I said earlier, I do not enjoy all the extra time it takes to trim the fat from doe during processing.  Do you enjoy the flavor of doe fat ?  Do you like it sticking to the roof of your mouth ?  

I would like it if I never had to process another doe, but that is not likely unless NY allows three bucks for those who purchase ML, archery, and gun hunting permits.   Another big advantage of killing button bucks is that they can be processed much sooner after killing because the younger the red-meat bearing animal, the faster rigor mortis releases.

If I allow the carcasses the proper time to age, then I can not tell the difference in the meat from a 1-1/2 thru a 3-12 year old deer (I have killed few if any older than that).  6 month old venison is definitely in a class by itself however, literally a meal fit for a king (or a prodigal son who has returned).  It is too bad that you and many others have such little appreciation for such "fine dining".   I feel very blessed to have had the opportunity of enjoying at least one every other year for the past 36 seasons that I have been hunting (In 2014 a buddy killed on for me and in 2016 I finished off one that a car hit at the end of our driveway with my knife).       

I cherish the memory of all the button bucks I have killed as much or more than many of the antlered bucks and more than all but two of the does (Adirondack ML kills).  They include my first gun deer, my first bow deer, my last crossbow deer, my only late ML kill, and a fair number that got to make that short trip to "deer heaven" (my family's food supply), as part of a "double" along side of their mommas.   

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by wolc123

[dbHunterNY]

There is quite a variation in the size of button bucks.  I rarely shoot the little ones.  The one that I killed last year with my crossbow yielded more boneless meat than many of the mature does that I have processed during gun season.  Very little fat, and no gun shot damage conserves meat.  That was the first one I shot since 2012, and I actually thought it was a mature doe at the time.   I was happy to find out that it was not, because, like I said earlier, I do not enjoy all the extra time it takes to trim the fat from doe during processing.  Do you enjoy the flavor of doe fat ?  Do you like it sticking to the roof of your mouth ?  
I would like it if I never had to process another doe, but that is not likely unless NY allows three bucks for those who purchase ML, archery, and gun hunting permits.   Another big advantage of killing button bucks is that they can be processed much sooner after killing because the younger the red-meat bearing animal, the faster rigor mortis releases.
If I allow the carcasses the proper time to age, then I can not tell the difference in the meat from a 1-1/2 thru a 3-12 year old deer (I have killed few if any older than that).  6 month old venison is definitely in a class by itself however, literally a meal fit for a king (or a prodigal son who has returned).  It is too bad that you and many others have such little appreciation for such "fine dining".   I feel very blessed to have had the opportunity of enjoying at least one every other year for the past 36 seasons that I have been hunting (In 2014 a buddy killed on for me and in 2016 I finished off one that a car hit at the end of our driveway with my knife).       
I cherish the memory of all the button bucks I have killed as much or more than many of the antlered bucks and more than all but two of the does (Adirondack ML kills).  They include my first gun deer, my first bow deer, my last crossbow deer, my only late ML kill, and a fair number that got to make that short trip to "deer heaven" (my family's food supply), as part of a "double" along side of their mommas.   
 

All BB taken around here seem to be 80-90 lbs dressed weight. From the one I processed and others I know of taken it's seemed to be less yield compared to mature doe that's 115+lbs. I'm very picky when I process my deer and no I dont like deer fat and idea of tallow on the roof of my mouth. It depends on when you shoot the doe during the season but it's not that bad trimming fat compared to say an early season buck in good condition. Shot doe early season with pure white fat and later with metabolized yellow fat, still it gets trimmed, and they still taste more than delicious enough. I can and have appreciated a tender BB. Still IMO it's not worth the lower yield we've seemed to experience here. All this week I've been grilling venison at work, cutting it with my fork and it's not tenderloins or rare.

Separate note we have a significantly lower buck density out here simply due to what the ground produces, forget affects of pulling a trigger. Totally aside from meat I'll also admit I'm not inclined to dump the biggest BB around because he's got the best start in life to take advantage of his potential. I like it when those bigger than average deer get a chance to grow a little. Hard to say if my mindset would be different if I was used to a higher sustained deer density.

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[nyslowhand]

... and this has to do with the OP's original topic of Xbow legislation - HOW?

[dbHunterNY]

... and this has to do with the OP's original topic of Xbow legislation - HOW?

Stick with us we're justifying what to shoot with said crossbow and time of season and bag limits that may effect effort or time in the woods to justify more picking up a crossbow.

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[nyslowhand]

Hard for me to understand your logic here!!! Seem to be compounding the Xbow inclusion issue by adding what those hunter should be shooting. At least in my mind, these are two distinctly separate issues.

[dbHunterNY]

Hard for me to understand your logic here!!! Seem to be compounding the Xbow inclusion issue by adding what those hunter should be shooting. At least in my mind, these are two distinctly separate issues.

I was kidding and reaching. We went off on a tangent not totally related to crossbows.

Crossbow bill is a dead stick that just means crash and burn of they or Rick does the same thing next session. Everybody more or less knows the deal, but unless you're walking it through each committee and getting a ton of people in their ear. Then in the next committee it's the same. Then when it's ready for a floor vote in each house you do the same only one person decides if it's worthy. Several hundred bills can be in committee at one time that you have to acknowledge when talking to them. Why should this get precedence? it's died for 5 years now so time for its turn. Also if one house passes moves it along and its stalling in committee it looks bad for the chair. They wasted other legislators' time if they dont take action. Again they might not be aware. You have to babysit a bill a lot to get it to move in this state with anything regarding hunting. Not saying all this isn't being done, but your past post of not understanding why it can sit in committee with co-sponsors in that committee tells that crossbow supporters still dont understand the process. That's bad for keeping a bill alive.

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