Deer population - Is it growing or is it over hunted?

[TheHunter]

Deer population - Is it growing or is it over hunted in new york?  From reading other posts here and there some say its over hunted... The season is to long, to many DMP's, etc etc.    But some say its still growing.  Is there any way to tell? What do you guys think?

[Doc]

Just based on what I see locally, our population is definitely on the upswing from several years ago. I don't have the harvest numbers here in front of me to see if those numbers agree with my observations or not.

There really is no one story that covers the whole state other than what is issued by the DEC. Where you live will be different from just over the hill sometimes. Not only do deer patterns move, but hunter patterns move too, so conditions can change from one year to the next and from one valley to the next, one township to the next, and from one county to the next and from one region to the next. You will hear all kinds of conflicting stories about the state of the herd, and it is concievable that they all could be accurate.

In our area, I believe we are seeing a steep decline in hunters and also a decline in endurance or enthusiasm of those hunters. Things get awful quiet around 10:00 opening morning, and they stay that way through the rest of the season. We now have a lot of 1 day hunters, and a lot of 1/2 day hunters. That's good news and bad news. I do like losing some of that carnival atmosphere when gun hunting (I feel safer), but I have to admit that a good lively crowd does get the deer moving. So if the crowd dies down, the deer take dies down, and the population goes up ..... regardless of how many permits are issued.

Anyway, I can't answer your question about what is going on statewide. I only know what the DEC tells us about the statewide herd. Actually statewide numbers and comments are kind of useless to me anyway since I really can only be concerned with what is happening in the area that I hunt.

Doc

[sweet old bill]

I am in the town of Franklin and the deer herd is way down. I think we are overhunting the herd due to the changes in the amount of doe permits and the it seems you can take a buck for every type of hunting permit. Also the ability to have one person sign over tags to another.

I sure wish we would go back to just your ability to take one buck perseason and it is your choice of how or waht you use to take the buck. I also would like to see the DEC come up with using the system to have a online questions of were you hunted the prior season how many day you hunted, how many deer you saw, how many deer you took, and did you report the taking to the DEC. to give the DEC real time info to reduce the deer permits and or increase based on hunter feedback. I also would support a number of point to be able to take a buck, like two on each side for all hunters except for youth hunters.

[Doc]

I know we would all like to see the DEC manage the herd more locally. When we look at the size and diversity of some of these WMUs, we know that the conditions across those WMUs are not identical and in some cases not even close to being identical. The fact is that even if you used counties or townships as management parcels you might get a bit better, but you still would never find exact consistant conditions. And the financial practicality would break the bank. I have seen deer conditions vary completely from one side of the valley to the other, or one property to the other. Couple all that with the current realities of the DEC budgets, and you start beginning to see why the WMU system was adopted.

You are never going to make all hunters, everywhere, happy. In fact the herd will most likely never be managed at its optimum anywhere. What we have is a system that tries to average conditions across a large area, and most likely they over-shoot some areas and undershoot others within the same WMU and seldom really get it right. It's really a no-win situation. Add in some of the anti-deer financial interests that continually lobby the government to "kill 'em all", and pretty soon you begin to hear from some pretty irate hunters.

Even some of the more popular suggestions that we see on this forum are really only appropriate for some specialized population and habitat conditions and probably are not suited for all lands of any one WMU.

Nope, it will never be done right, and we will never all be happy. That's just a fact of life. I don't think it will ever change. I can only say that I'm glad that I never tried the DEC for employment. It's a pretty thankless, no-win job.

Doc

[growalot]

Doc said it the best...we have 2 different areas...here at home 73acres and the deer population is down compared to past years...last year.... mind you..... I don't know a ton of the ppl around here but figured 1 squire mile around me...and counted over 150 hunters ..that I know of...and there are more...most properties range 10-100 acres in size...and about half of us bow and muzzle load as well...on average if you want to try for extra doe tags we can get 4 doe tags a year..on top of reg tags...2 miles away they are lucky to get 1 doe tag a year...

Down at camp is a whole different story...we own 68 acres there and are surround on 3 sides by hundreds of restricted hunting preserve acreage...then nearly in passable 50-100 acres parcels in the valley.... doe permits are some times hard to get ...but very low hunting pressure...so bigger herds ..but there is no farm land and STEEP terrain choked with brush (buckthorn and thorn apple)

Yepp depends on where you are

[WNYBuckHunter]

In my area there are a ton of deer, always has been. Until last year, the area didnt get hunted much except by me, now there are a few more guys, so we will see what the results are.

[Buckstopshere]

Here in Southern Allegany County, the overall deer population is pretty stable for the last few years, maybe slightly growing.

Ten years ago the whitetail population was really high. The DEC flooded the area with almost unlimited permits, the the population dropped like a stone through around 2003, now it has come back and for the last five years or so has been pretty stable and the DEC has not fluctuated the permits much.

[burmjohn]

I wonder if this harsh winter will have any effects?

[ny hunter]

last year we saw no bucks and not many doe.I think the herd is a little down from past years.

[wellsley]

I wonder if this harsh winter will have any effects?

This is a good question. I'm going to say no. If the snow hadn't settled and melted as quick as it did I think it could have been devastated. There might be isolated pockets where they had a severe winter kill, but for the most part the snow settled and the deer were able to move to get food.

In my area the deer population plumeted the winter of 2003 and it has struggled to make a come back. I think it is increasing but not as fast as DEC thought and it has not reached the 2003 level. I spend alot of time in Schoharie and Delaware county.

[wztirem]

I have hunted in West Fulton,Schoharie Co. for the last 30 years and have seen the deer population fluctuate over those years. But for the past several years the success rate among camp members has severely declined. Hopefully, things will be better this upcoming season.

[wellsley]

Bill

I'm familar with west fulton some huge bucks used to come out of there 20 years ago. I think the hay day of that area has come and gone. The land use will have to change to improve the habitat. My only suggestion is to get a spot on the ridge closest to rt. 30 and maybe you'll catch up with a big buck that feeds at night in the veggie fields. On the other hand the bear population of that area is on the rise.

[wztirem]

There is no doubt about the increase in the bear population. I have hunted land off of Patria Road and private land in the general area. The deer take is down. Years ago there was numerous hunters who pushed the deer and some really big deer were killed. each year I made my donation to the Summit Country Store Big Buck?Doe contest. Years ago I was fortunate to shoot the heaviest doe (seven years old by DEC estimates).Nowadays hunter numbers being down the deer just dont move. This is probably the case in many areas though!

[wellsley]

Yep, there is some big country up there. The lack of hunters especially on the state land the deer just don't move.

[wztirem]

Its amazing how much huntable state land exists in Schoharie County that is under utilized!

[wellsley]

I agree, than add DEP property there is no shortage of land to hunt. I hunt state land in Greene co. but haven't hunted state land in Schoharie co. in some time. I have 700 acres next to me that my neighbor lets me hunt and he is very selective on who he lets hunt. Another 350 acres of DEP property adjoining that doesn't get much pressure after the first week.

[sweet old bill]

How can it be growing ? The way the system is now you have a tag for any spamp you buy plus for each hunter the doe permits are always more than the area require, plus if you use up all your tags, get a buddy to sign over his... now tell me just how the DEC has any idea of what is the deer herd level ? they use the same numbers year after year. We asked them to put as part of getting a licence you have to fill out via the system a small sampling of questions on did you hunt last year, what area, numbers of days, amount of deer you saw, did you take a deer, what was it, and a other were the hunter could type in concerns. This would be a start of a real time system, so that doe permits was used to keep the herd in top shape. If I could I would fire 100% of the DEc top management, they are no help to the hunter or the deer herd they should be protecting.

[wellsley]

Back in the 70's and 80's it wasn't safe to hunt state land and now there are times when your the only one there.

[Geno C]

in all my areas of hunting it does not appear to me that there is a smaller population of deer. If anything, where i hut in a few differnt counties upstate there seems to not be as much hunters in the woods anymore. i mean on the island theres hunters all over but i dont see there being a small population of deer on the island eaither. i think if anything the deer population that i can visually see seems to be on the uprise, IMO... Isnt that why a few years ago they moved opening day of gun to a Sat for the simple reason to encourage more hunters for opening week? Due to most having off on weekends and it being difficult for hunters to get off of work? i mean thats prob not the main reason for making opening day a Sat but i thought it had something to do with it??

[Doc]

Back in the 70's and 80's it wasn't safe to hunt state land and now there are times when your the only one there.

Interesting you should say that because I have noticed the same thing. Not only that, but those that do show up seem to be mostly gone by noon. They're a bunch of part-timers. I'm afraid that even the hunters we have left are suffering from a huge lack of enthusiasm. A lot of them may be gone soon too.

The bad news is that where the gun hunters have thinned out on state land, the bowhunters, hikers and bikers seem to have increased during bow season. There seems to be a shift from gun hunting to bow hunting, and now we have a lot of non-hunting use of state lands during bow season too. I'm not sure whether that is true on state lands or public lands in general across the state, but the parcel that I have hunted for 50+ years has changed in that way.

Doc

[wztirem]

Back in the 70's and 80's it wasn't safe to hunt state land and now there are times when your the only one there.

Hunting will always be potentially dangerous. However, hunting on State Land has the potential to be a lot more dangerous than hunting private land. At least on private land the hunts are more safer because they are better organized and usually all the hunters know the location of their hunters.

On state land the number of hunters decreases dramatically after the opening weekend. By the time ML season rolls around I usually have the area I hunt all to my self.

[Doc]

Hunting will always be potentially dangerous. However, hunting on State Land has the potential to be a lot more dangerous than hunting private land. At least on private land the hunts are more safer because they are better organized and usually all the hunters know the location of their hunters.

On state land the number of hunters decreases dramatically after the opening weekend. By the time ML season rolls around I usually have the area I hunt all to my self.

Actually, to a lesser extent, I have also heard the same kind of changes on private lands in our valley and hilltops. There seems to be the traditional craziness of opening day or at least opening half-day and then it gets real quiet for the rest of the season. It's kind of like hunting only holds the interest of these guys for a few hours and then if nothing happens they all go home. That is a massive change from the 60's and 70's and some of the 80's. I remember you could actually track the progress of a buck across the woods by the shots. The woods was thick with hunters and when they got cold, they didn't go home, they simply got up and started still-hunting. That kept the deer moving throughout the day. And yes, the weekdays were quite quiet, but every weekend was another big day. Thanksgiving morning is not the big day that it used to be either.  Something is really changing.

Doc

[wztirem]

Hunting will always be potentially dangerous. However, hunting on State Land has the potential to be a lot more dangerous than hunting private land. At least on private land the hunts are more safer because they are better organized and usually all the hunters know the location of their hunters.

On state land the number of hunters decreases dramatically after the opening weekend. By the time ML season rolls around I usually have the area I hunt all to my self.

Actually, to a lesser extent, I have also heard the same kind of changes on private lands in our valley and hilltops. There seems to be the traditional craziness of opening day or at least opening half-day and then it gets real quiet for the rest of the season. It's kind of like hunting only holds the interest of these guys for a few hours and then if nothing happens they all go home. That is a massive change from the 60's and 70's and some of the 80's. I remember you could actually track the progress of a buck across the woods by the shots. The woods was thick with hunters and when they got cold, they didn't go home, they simply got up and started still-hunting. That kept the deer moving throughout the day. And yes, the weekdays were quite quiet, but every weekend was another big day. Thanksgiving morning is not the big day that it used to be either.  Something is really changing.

Doc

You are spot on Doc!

Considering that hunters spend less time in the woods these days and for the past several years the weather (southern zone) has been lousy, do you trust the DEC deer kill statistics. Are hunters these days more efficient?

Sorry for hijacking this thread, I just could not control myself!

[orion]

The 80's were good. Saw deer most of the time, not a lot but could figure on seeing 2-4 during a sit. The 90's seem to drop considerably was happy to see a deer during a weekend hunt. Now it seems to have leveled off to where I will probably see at least 1 sighting for a weekend hunt.

Deer permits, coyotes, less hunters pushing deer, warmer clothes keeping hunters sitting longer, treestands, food plots? Who knows?

[solon]

i agree with  the posts about the 90's - lot's of deer then - i've seen a 50% decrease in population in the "woods" where i hunt - 7F & 7M, the DEC counts all the deer that live in the burbs that we can't hunt...