DMP Plan thread

[fasteddie]

I don't get it . Pissin' and moanin' about 10 damn dollars . You could do a lot worse spending money on losing Mega-Million Lottery tickets !

[Doc]

Doc, nobody is saying that the added revenue was not thought about when they were developing the plan. However, if this new plan causes guys to quit hunting, or to stop buying the licenses that carry a higher price, then the added revenue through the newly proposed DMP process would have to cover those losses. I asked dave to come up with the numbers and what the DEC could expect to gain, but he doesnt seem to want to come up with any of that. Something showing a significant gain in funds would at least be something to show that such an opinion is not completely unfounded.

Ok, I guess I missed all that. I have to admit that with the entire thread being dragged along with each reply, my eyes started giving out a long ways back.

Now, as far as what you are asking Dave or whoever to do, is most likely not a reasonable request. You are asking him to do a research project to come up with data that most likely has never been accumulated. In fact it is unlikely that the DEC is even capable of making that kind of assessment. If we are going to ask that every opinion stated here on this forum be backed up with statistics and documentation which most of us laymen have no access to, then things could get mighty quiet here ..... lol. I think I can deal with a certain level of logic and maybe even a certain amount of intuition. And perhaps even a good old fashion gut-feel might not be totally unacceptable .

[Doc]

I don't get it . Pissin' and moanin' about 10 damn dollars . You could do a lot worse spending money on losing Mega-Million Lottery tickets !

I guess everybody has their own limits when it comes to exactly what constitutes that "final straw". All I know is taxation is a time tested way of reducing behaviors. It works! Even in cases where the amount really doesn't seem to be that significant. In some cases it is an exagerated effect that grows in people's minds. In other cases, it is a case of rebellion. And in a few rare cases, it is a real hardship. I know one thing, the impression is (true or not) that the NY sportsmen and women are being financial beat on a bit lately by the DEC. So it really doesn't take a lot more of the same kind of thing to set people off.

[BIGTOM]

I don't get it . Pissin' and moanin' about 10 damn dollars . You could do a lot worse spending money on losing Mega-Million Lottery tickets !

I guess everybody has their own limits when it comes to exactly what constitutes that "final straw". All I know is taxation is a time tested way of reducing behaviors. It works! Even in cases where the amount really doesn't seem to be that significant. In some cases it is an exagerated effect that grows in people's minds. In other cases, it is a case of rebellion. And in a few rare cases, it is a real hardship. I know one thing, the impression is (true or not) that the NY sportsmen and women are being financial beat on a bit lately by the DEC. So it really doesn't take a lot more of the same kind of thing to set people off.

Thank you Doc it's nice to see at least one moderator on here has some common sence!

[WNYBuckHunter]

Do you want me to name them too? Remember this is part of the 5 year plan. This is a proposal and is not in affect yet and we are just voicing our OPINIONS on the Plan. Maybe the numbers you want are all the hunters who will be paying an extra $10 for a DMP to be used during bow season.  Don't know how to explain it any better than that. Who knows the numbers ?no body, until the 5 year plan is passed and bow hunters apply for the DMP's in 2012. So you may get your numbers next year. Asking for numbers to back up an opinion when there are no real numbers is not a valid question.

Dave

Man, you just dont stop trying to deflect this way and that. I asked a pretty specific question of you.

I was the one in this thread to point out that the 5 year plan isnt in effect, remember?

Arn't you the one that said the reason the DEC is planing on doing away with the either sex tag so they can better control the heard? If so show us where they state that. If they did then it's just a smoke screen because do you really think they would say where doing away with the either sex tag to increase $$$!! They will tell say alot of BS to those who are dumb enough to buy it!! I don't think they are dumb enough to come out and say were doing away with the either sex tag because we need the money there for I dought what you are asking is in writing!!

Yep, I said it almost immediately after reading the plan. You obviously havent read the clarification that the DEC came out with. I suggest reading it.

I did read it and the state is pissing on my leg and telling me it's raining!! It's all about the money plain and simple!!!

Then I pose to you the same as I asked dave. Prove it with some numbers that show the DEC making a significant increase in revenue from it.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Doc, nobody is saying that the added revenue was not thought about when they were developing the plan. However, if this new plan causes guys to quit hunting, or to stop buying the licenses that carry a higher price, then the added revenue through the newly proposed DMP process would have to cover those losses. I asked dave to come up with the numbers and what the DEC could expect to gain, but he doesnt seem to want to come up with any of that. Something showing a significant gain in funds would at least be something to show that such an opinion is not completely unfounded.

Ok, I guess I missed all that. I have to admit that with the entire thread being dragged along with each reply, my eyes started giving out a long ways back.

Now, as far as what you are asking Dave or whoever to do, is most likely not a reasonable request. You are asking him to do a research project to come up with data that most likely has never been accumulated. In fact it is unlikely that the DEC is even capable of making that kind of assessment. If we are going to ask that every opinion stated here on this forum be backed up with statistics and documentation which most of us laymen have no access to, then things could get mighty quiet here ..... lol. I think I can deal with a certain level of logic and maybe even a certain amount of intuition. And perhaps even a good old fashion gut-feel might not be totally unacceptable .

All you have to do is connect the dots, and use some logic and the trail does not lead to any reason other than to try and keep a better control of the herd and take numbers. Just saying its some grandiose money scheme is just silly, there isnt enough money in it to make a dent in anything. How many guys do you know that bowhunt, gun hunt and ML hunt and dont apply for DMPs already? I dont know more than 1, and hes a cheap-o lol. Hes the guy with a $1500 AR and puts a $50 tasco scope on it! Dont get me wrong, i like the guy but man hes cheap. Now figure that for every 10 hunters out there, 1 doesnt go for DMPs, and it really doesnt add up to much at all.

Everyone is always pissing and moaning about no deer, the DEC doesnt manage crap, too many DMPs, too few DMPs, etc etc. Now the DEC comes up with a plan, states its goals to fix past mistakes and take better control of the herd, and the same people just continue to piss and moan. I wish I were surprised by it, but Im not.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I don't get it . Pissin' and moanin' about 10 damn dollars . You could do a lot worse spending money on losing Mega-Million Lottery tickets !

I guess everybody has their own limits when it comes to exactly what constitutes that "final straw". All I know is taxation is a time tested way of reducing behaviors. It works! Even in cases where the amount really doesn't seem to be that significant. In some cases it is an exagerated effect that grows in people's minds. In other cases, it is a case of rebellion. And in a few rare cases, it is a real hardship. I know one thing, the impression is (true or not) that the NY sportsmen and women are being financial beat on a bit lately by the DEC. So it really doesn't take a lot more of the same kind of thing to set people off.

Thank you Doc it's nice to see at least one moderator on here has some common sence!

You are going to give a lecture on common sense?

Werent you the one making it out like the DMP system was already changed?

[WNYBuckHunter]

I put this stuff in its own thread where it belongs.

[Dave]

Doc, nobody is saying that the added revenue was not thought about when they were developing the plan. However, if this new plan causes guys to quit hunting, or to stop buying the licenses that carry a higher price, then the added revenue through the newly proposed DMP process would have to cover those losses. I asked dave to come up with the numbers and what the DEC could expect to gain, but he doesnt seem to want to come up with any of that. Something showing a significant gain in funds would at least be something to show that such an opinion is not completely unfounded.

Ok, I guess I missed all that. I have to admit that with the entire thread being dragged along with each reply, my eyes started giving out a long ways back.

Now, as far as what you are asking Dave or whoever to do, is most likely not a reasonable request. You are asking him to do a research project to come up with data that most likely has never been accumulated. In fact it is unlikely that the DEC is even capable of making that kind of assessment. If we are going to ask that every opinion stated here on this forum be backed up with statistics and documentation which most of us laymen have no access to, then things could get mighty quiet here ..... lol. I think I can deal with a certain level of logic and maybe even a certain amount of intuition. And perhaps even a good old fashion gut-feel might not be totally unacceptable .

Doc, once again out of turmoil there is the voice of reason.  It was the point that I was trying to make but didn't put in quite those words. Some people try to push unreasonable requests and then wine that you haven't answered the question.

Dave

[nyantler]

I don't understand the money problem... the super sportsman is a deal at $100... big game, small game, turkey, muzzleloader, bow and fishing licenses.. averages out to less than $20 per license.. and the best part is you get a choice... you don't even have to buy a super sportsman... you can buy them individually... or not at all... name another form of entertainment that you get for that kind of money... for crying out loud you can't even watch TV for less than $500-$1000 per year... LOL.. a guy will spend $500 on a scentlok outfit.. $150 for boots... $1500 for a bow... and bitch about $10 more for a DMP... it's crazy I tell ya.. crazy!!  

Oh and the hardship case guy makes sure he has a $20 case of beer for when he and his buddies get done with the days hunt.

[fasteddie]

I don't get it . Pissin' and moanin' about 10 damn dollars . You could do a lot worse spending money on losing Mega-Million Lottery tickets !

I guess everybody has their own limits when it comes to exactly what constitutes that "final straw". All I know is taxation is a time tested way of reducing behaviors. It works! Even in cases where the amount really doesn't seem to be that significant. In some cases it is an exagerated effect that grows in people's minds. In other cases, it is a case of rebellion. And in a few rare cases, it is a real hardship. I know one thing, the impression is (true or not) that the NY sportsmen and women are being financial beat on a bit lately by the DEC. So it really doesn't take a lot more of the same kind of thing to set people off.

Thank you Doc it's nice to see at least one moderator on here has some common sence!

Well Tommy ..... save your $10 and go without tags . Proving a point that the Government is soooo greedy is more important than taking a chance on a couple of DMP tags .  :

[Doc]

I guess I don't see why any New Yorker wouldn't complain about ANY additional taxation no matter how small. I'm thinking the reason NYS finances and taxes are the way they are is because too many people think everything is a bargain. They actually welcome and encourage higher taxes and fees with their passive acceptance. For me there is not one increase in fees that I wouldn't fight no matter how small. Given the mentality of our tax and spend government, to do any different invites abuse and retards fiscal reform.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I guess I don't see why any New Yorker wouldn't complain about ANY additional taxation no matter how small. I'm thinking the reason NYS finances and taxes are the way they are is because too many people think everything is a bargain. They actually welcome and encourage higher taxes and fees with their passive acceptance. For me there is not one increase in fees that I wouldn't fight no matter how small. Given the mentality of our tax and spend government, to do any different invites abuse and retards fiscal reform.

I guess I just dont see it as any extra taxation. I see it as a change to the way deer are managed in the state, and believe it to be a change in the right direction. The one question I have is, will we be able to get more than 4 total DMPs. Like Ive said before, I always get 4 DMPs, but currently I have the ability to take 5 or 6 does total (depending if I take a buck with my either sex tag). Thats the only thing I havent seen them detail about the DMP part of the plan.

[SteveB]

WNY - they don't back it with numbers because there are none to support them.

Most every bow/mz season hunter I know applies for the dmp now and pays the $10.

Continuing to do so will not increase revenue.

Even if the few who have opted out of the dmp's because of the fee come back, the increase will be minimal at best.

Where is this "cash cow" with the huge windfall motivation alleged by some to be the sole reason - or even a major factor - of the DEC proposal going to come from if most are already buying the dmp's?

[fasteddie]

I don't look at the $10 for tag applications as a Tax . I consider it an investment .

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I am not sure how it currently is becasue the areas I apply for I always get.....but I remember back in the old application days if you sent in the fee (I think $5 back then) and did NOT get drawn the check was eaither voided or sent back. If you guys don't get drawn in the Doe Permit lottery now do you get your money back?

[Dave]

Well if you are in DMU 4W there are only 1000 DMP being issued down from 1900 last year. There are certain categories in the selection process HIGH-MEDIUM AND LOW AND IN 4W YOU NEED PREFERENCE POINTS to be considered which as the least probability of being selected. Here is where the DEC gets you, if you don't have a preference points and want to apply you will not get a permit. So you have to pay this year for a preference point you may be able to use next year. So this year you are paying for nothing. Is that a fair way of allocating DMP? Some on this site are fortunate to get 4 or 5 DMP so they have no dog in this fight, it's the guy who is trying to get just ONE. Correct me if I am interpurting this wrong , it is my opinion only. If you don't apply and get turned down you don't get a preference point?

Dave

[Culvercreek hunt club]

It used to be you got a preference point and your money back.....guess they got sick of seeing that coin go back out...I mean with all their socail programs they have to fund and all :'(

[Dave]

Some people on this site get up set about the fuss over a measly $10 fee . But they miss the point the money isn't used to promote hunting or other hunting related activities. There is the problem.

Dave

[G-Man]

exactly..thats the problem i have with most fees for hunting guarentee that it will go where it is supose to!! now the state might lose federal roberson pittman dollars because they have a loophole that let them put money elsewhere??? hmmm...  i think we could have a lot more dec officers if the money just went to them instead of enviromental cleanups.. not that i against cleaning up but a seperate game commision would be they way to go!!

[Culvercreek hunt club]

That is really why I will not contribute during any of the "check this box to contribute" scams I think they do them during the license sales....I think they might do it other times too....was it during taxes?...anyway they get a big NO from me. If it went to support a conservation effort I would gladly support it.

[Dave]

Guy's I have no problem with limiting or even doing away with DMP in areas that have low deer counts. Till the herd rebounds. It's just the fact that the DEC will take away either sex tags from bow hunters and then Issue more DMP . Plus the fact that it will cost you $10 for a privaledge that was free. This means the chances of a bow hunter getting a permit is low, put they could manage to get a permit but not in an area of low deer count.

Dave

[WNYBuckHunter]

I am not sure how it currently is becasue the areas I apply for I always get.....but I remember back in the old application days if you sent in the fee (I think $5 back then) and did NOT get drawn the check was eaither voided or sent back. If you guys don't get drawn in the Doe Permit lottery now do you get your money back?

Nope

[WNYBuckHunter]

Some people on this site get up set about the fuss over a measly $10 fee . But they miss the point the money isn't used to promote hunting or other hunting related activities. There is the problem.

Dave

Really? The money goes into the conservation fund, where it is used for Hunting related items, state land, etc. The problem with the conservation fund is if they didnt close that hole that would allow them to pull funds, but thats another topic.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Guy's I have no problem with limiting or even doing away with DMP in areas that have low deer counts. Till the herd rebounds. It's just the fact that the DEC will take away either sex tags from bow hunters and then Issue more DMP . Plus the fact that it will cost you $10 for a privaledge that was free. This means the chances of a bow hunter getting a permit is low, put they could manage to get a permit but not in an area of low deer count.

Dave

Again, like has been said, your chances will be better in the areas with low DMP numbers now because they wont have to factor in the either sex tags and doe tags that can be used anywhere. DEC has even said this.