What is Going On?????

[nyslowhand]

Don't see where the annual NYDEC deer harvest shows a trend over the past 20 or more years that would effect deer populations.

That is not taking into account irregularities in their breeding habits, an increase in predators or substantial changes in "winter kill" numbers.

Unless you are saying hunters are simply killing too many deer each year to sustain the population...?

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/42246.html

[Cabin Fever]

Maybe I'm not understanding the original post, but I don't see this as being anything peculiar for the seasons of the last bunch of years. haven't we all seen the season being primarily reduced to an opening day event (or maybe the opening two days)?

Maybe you should have read the origional post. He said his lack of sightings date back after the first day of archery, not just since gun season started.

[ryanrobb52]

Its the same thing for me in 6A and 6G. I put out a new trail camera in Sept and to date have recorded 5 different bucks on my 150 acres. Needless to say I was excited to hit the woods this bow season with all the bucks running around (prior to this year I would get 1 maybe 2 bucks on camera). October was filled with action, deer every day and more scrapes than I had ever seen on my property. I managed a buck on opening morning of archery and filled a DMP on the opening weekend of gun but managed to go the entire month of November without seeing a single deer. What gives? I'm thinking I may have overhunted during archery and forced the deer out of my spot but I am always very cautious of scent and noise. After talking to a number of other hunters in the area they are all saying the same thing. Now just about every pic on my camera is in the middle of the night. Frustrating to say the least. Could it actually be the warm weather that screwed things up?

[Deerthug]

Many of us have family and work obligations that pop up usually last minute and prevent us from going into the woods a lot. Trust me I wish I can get away for a week and hunt everyday until I fill my tags. Unless you are a professional hunter, retired, unemployed or have no family then I cannot see how anyone can hunt everyday of the season.

As far as numbers go, I think it has a lot to do with weather not cooperating. The corn fields in my area still have not been harvested. The machines can't get in there when the grounds are saturated and full of mud. I'm hoping that by next weekend they will be cut and the deer will start moving around looking for new cover.

During the summer months I've counted as many as 25 deer grazing in the fields. So I know they are out there. Last year I shot a doe on opening day for gun season and my 6 pt on last day of season. Usually in between they do go into survival mode but they still need to eat. Eventually they will come out. That's why when I do go up I sit all day while my buddies go in for lunch. Just my 2 cents.

[Steve7]

I know a farmer close by that has 10 nuisance permits. He filled them all AT NIGHT. Although I took a nice 8 pointer on 11/20, I think the SW winds combined with the warm temps really didn't help IMHO. Early bow was pretty good here in 3M and slowly dropped off until gun started. It's very dead now here also.

[Meat Manager]

In the area I live and every other area I hunt in the deer numbers are way down.It has been in a steady decline for at least the last 10 years . In my neighborhood ,for example, 10 years ago I could drive around the "block" ( a 4-5 mile ride) and spot 100 deer in the fields.10 in this field, 3 in this one, 8 in that one,deer spread out all over the place. The same trip now , I may be able to see 0- 10 if I am lucky. I have been the sole bowhunter on this one alfafa field for years . I used to see 10+ deer come into the field on an evening hunt. Now my daughter and I sat there this year 4 different times and saw only 2 deer total.There are some in this state that say there are just as many deer as there ever was but for every 1 of them I bet you can find 10 more that are not seeing as many deer.

I believe the farmer permits ,dmps , and muzzleloader w/scope season all have contributed to this. at least up here in the northern zone.

I believe we as hunters have a responsibility to manage the herd on our own. When we notice the herd is thinning out stop shooting does.Do not wait for the state to limit your doe tags and at the same time complain about the lack of deer.We all should know how well the state manages anything.

First of all, @Doc since when do good hunters rely on other hunters in the woods? A good hunter patterns deer all season, regardless of hunting activity. That is what I try to do.

Second, @Ncountry, shooting does is NOT the problem with sighting deer...Thanks to @nyslowhand for actually linking some statistics, rather than just listening to guys whine about the DEC. Anecdotal declines in sightings like your alfalfa field probably have more to do with ecological changes immediately in your area...and sitting and getting zero seen a couple nights is not anything more than an anecdote.

The fact is that DEC, or in PA DCNR (which most of these whiners would really hate, with statewide antler restrictions, and very staggered deer seasons) IMPROVED the size of the heard over time (doubled it from 1980 to 2010).

I would agree with most reasonable and knowlegable members on this board. The fact is the weather was tough all year 2011, in the winter it was extremely hard with inches of snow on the ground for more than 90 straight days in most regions of the Northeast, let alone NY.

Now, during the season 60 degree temps and crystal clear nights THROUGHOUT November = Deer moving at night! That is why you aren't seeing them. Just check your bedding and feeding areas for droppings and then come back and tell me there are no deer.

This thread is getting ridiclulous...nearly everyone agrees its a slow year for sightings, but blaming other hunters for not being in the woods (I wish they would all stay away from my hunting spots), or people who are doing their part filling doe tags (which I paid for, and which is the real herd management portion of hunting, taking trophies does nothing in that respect), or even stupider yet, blaming the DEC who actually uses real studies including radio-tag deer to determine actual herd size, not PERCIEVED herd size according to anecdotes.

Edited December 3, 2011 by 7J Everyday

[Single_shot]

From what I have read here,next year should be wall to wall deer!

[Brushbuster]

I love the posters who talk about killing does and then they complain "Where are all the deer"

Kill a doe, and that is one less buck next year and five less buck three years later and nine less buck 4 years later.

Think about that next time you are in your stand.

[Meat Manager]

Here is information on why deer populations need controlled (so that it doesn't glut, ever hear of chronic wasting), and how filling doe tags is a critical part of that effort:

http://www.dec.ny.go...imals/7211.html

This is not new info here is an article from 1955 that is pretty concise:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1130476/index.htm

Get educated. By the way I am not one of the posters asking "where are the deer?" I know where they are (because I continue to scout before, throughout, and after the season is well over), bedded down in the thick stuff and moving pretty much only at night thanks to the weather.

Edited December 3, 2011 by 7J Everyday

[Doc]

Maybe you should have read the origional post. He said his lack of sightings date back after the first day of archery, not just since gun season started.

Yes, and I believe a good portion of that original post was about gun season as well as most of the follow up responses.

[Doc]

First of all, @Doc since when do good hunters rely on other hunters in the woods? A good hunter patterns deer all season, regardless of hunting activity. That is what I try to do.

A few words from a "good hunter" ...... lol. Some of us have actually learned a few things about deer escape routes and actually do understand the correlation between deer movement and hunter patterns. Also some of us do understand that when deer go into that super survival mode after opening day, a little pressure from hunters is a good thing.

[nyantler]

even a good hunter will have trouble patterning deer movement during the so called "super survival mode"...unless of course there is snow.. which helps... hunters moving deer is sometimes the only way deer will move during the daylight.

[nyantler]

I love the posters who talk about killing does and then they complain "Where are all the deer"

Kill a doe, and that is one less buck next year and five less buck three years later and nine less buck 4 years later.

Think about that next time you are in your stand.

Sorry but it doesn't work like that... the real reason that there are not as many bucks is because of the amount of bucks killed.. ony 51% of all fawns born, on average, are bucks.. so killing a doe doesn't necessarily mean that you are one buck less the next year (there is a 50/50 chance that the doe has 1 fawn and it is another doe).. killing a buck ensures one less buck the following year... the only thing that not killing does ensures is an over population of does.

Edited December 3, 2011 by nyantler

[Meat Manager]

A few words from a "good hunter" ...... lol. Some of us have actually learned a few things about deer escape routes and actually do understand the correlation between deer movement and hunter patterns. Also some of us do understand that when deer go into that super survival mode after opening day, a little pressure from hunters is a good thing.

I am not gonna go as far as to call myself a good hunter, but as I pointed out before, I am pretty confident in my own awareness of the deer patterns in my area at all times during the season and beyond. I am very aware of where the deer have gone, I just can't hunt them there at night.

I obviously know that "a little pressure from hunters is a good thing." The original point you made was that because fewer hunters are dedicated to hunt beyond the first days of gun season we have seen less deer in the past several years (which is not the case for me, only this year seems atypical, and the weather has been just that, atypical), and I say this is nonsense, if anything the trapsing of the typically loud, stinky, and unaware gun hunters push the deer nocturnal regardless of weather.

And yeah, the OP was about the whole deer season, which for me started in September when i traveled 1:15 each way twice a week to start scouting my Northern Zone archery stands. I don't think the lack of a full rut or low sightings in archery had anything to do with hunting pressure.

Edited December 3, 2011 by 7J Everyday

[nybuckboy]

I love the posters who talk about killing does and then they complain "Where are all the deer"

Kill a doe, and that is one less buck next year and five less buck three years later and nine less buck 4 years later.

Think about that next time you are in your stand.

Actually most does in the Southern tier, give birth to 2 deer each year... so it could be 2 bucks next year and sometimes they triplet.

[doulos]

Even though I havent hunted as much as I usually due to a medical problem, I have to agree that I have seen fewer deer than usual. But its hard to determine why. The beginning of bow season was pretty good and then it tailed off. Things to consider are weather and food sources.

The wind was not conducive for me seeing deer in some of the places I hunt. The prevailing westerly wind at this time of year was non exsistent in some places I usually hunt. And the food sources werent the same as last year.

As far as hunter pressure I rather not have it. Ive always done better toward late season when pressure dies down a bit.

As far as numbers of permits I do believe it is over done. I dont consistently see the deer numbers I saw when permits were harder to come by.Now just about every area was in region 8 where I hunt was issuing 2 per hunter. And there was extra tags after Nov 1.

In one area where I owned property nuisance permits were certainly over issued to a large farm owner. And the hunting really suffered. Numbers were way down after 2 years of these farm hands plugging away. And this is a place I knew well and hunted for 30 years.

To be honest where Im hunting now even though Im not seeing deer Im still seeing alot of sign. So I know they are there. Ive seen seasons like this before. But there are a lot of variables.

The best way to tell is to go there after the snow flies and the season is well over and hang around some late season food sources. I did that after a similar slow season and couldnt believe how many deer I saw

[ncountry]

First of all, @Doc since when do good hunters rely on other hunters in the woods? A good hunter patterns deer all season, regardless of hunting activity. That is what I try to do.

Second, @Ncountry, shooting does is NOT the problem with sighting deer...Thanks to @nyslowhand for actually linking some statistics, rather than just listening to guys whine about the DEC. Anecdotal declines in sightings like your alfalfa field probably have more to do with ecological changes immediately in your area...and sitting and getting zero seen a couple nights is not anything more than an anecdote.

The fact is that DEC, or in PA DCNR (which most of these whiners would really hate, with statewide antler restrictions, and very staggered deer seasons) IMPROVED the size of the heard over time (doubled it from 1980 to 2010).

I would agree with most reasonable and knowlegable members on this board. The fact is the weather was tough all year 2011, in the winter it was extremely hard with inches of snow on the ground for more than 90 straight days in most regions of the Northeast, let alone NY.

Now, during the season 60 degree temps and crystal clear nights THROUGHOUT November = Deer moving at night! That is why you aren't seeing them. Just check your bedding and feeding areas for droppings and then come back and tell me there are no deer.

This thread is getting ridiclulous...nearly everyone agrees its a slow year for sightings, but blaming other hunters for not being in the woods (I wish they would all stay away from my hunting spots), or people who are doing their part filling doe tags (which I paid for, and which is the real herd management portion of hunting, taking trophies does nothing in that respect), or even stupider yet, blaming the DEC who actually uses real studies including radio-tag deer to determine actual herd size, not PERCIEVED herd size according to anecdotes.

Nice response .I would have to disagree with much of what you have to say. I am sure there are many areas that have a healthy and well balanced deer herd .I am just as sure there are as many or more that do not..Thanks to a previous link we can see in black and white that over-all our deer take has declined ~20- 33 %on average over the past 10 years .

Now if what you say holds true in some areas ,then in other areas the hunting must be downright terrible.

A truly good hunter patterns other hunters as well as deer year round. This is what I do. Lol

I live in the middle of some great farm land.If they are not in that alfalfa they are in the next one or the cornfield after that, ets....

Today I walked through one of my old haunts in the hills .The furthest landing is 3.5 miles in.I crossed 2 deer tracks .And yes during my still hunt right through the middle of their home the deer sign is way down.

Edited December 4, 2011 by ncountry

[Meat Manager]

Nice response .I would have to disagree with much of what you have to say. I am sure there are many areas that have a healthy and well balanced deer herd .I am just as sure there are as many or more that do not..Thanks to a previous link we can see in black and white that over-all our deer take has declined ~20- 33 %on average over the past 10 years .

Now if what you say holds true in some areas ,then in other areas the hunting must be downright terrible.

A truly good hunter patterns other hunters as well as deer year round. This is what I do. Lol

I live in the middle of some great farm land.If they are not in that alfalfa they are in the next one or the cornfield after that, ets....

Today I walked through one of my old haunts in the hills .The furthest landing is 3.5 miles in.I crossed 2 deer tracks .And yes during my still hunt right through the middle of their home the deer sign is way down.

More anecdotal responses...and someone please show me where the average deer take has gone down 22%...in 1991 the take was 212,000; in 1999 it was 255,000; last year it was 230,000, that seems somewhat level over the past two decades.

http://www.dec.ny.go...door/42246.html

Edited December 4, 2011 by 7J Everyday

[Nomad]

Good point 7j, another thing to add in 1,991 we killed 212,633 and in 2,010 we killed 230,100 deer but we had about 100,000 more hunters in 1,991. We're killing more deer today with far fewer hunters. Someones seeing deer.

I'm no great hunter ,but the last year I made tag soup was in the '80's sometime.

[Brushbuster]

The deer harvest numbers are the crudest of estimates - about as realistic as the "official" inflation and unemployment numbers

[Nomad]

Hum my neighbor and fellow deer hunter was the head of the math and statisics dept. of a major college in Rochester, we talked about the Nys dec,method of tracking deer takes more then once.

I'll can't speak in the same language of this math prof. but he seemed to feel it was an accurate method. Why do you feel its not ?

They establish a base line of known deer killed in the tens of thousands,monitor the reporting rate of those known deer killed, and extrapolate for the number of tags sold.

Heck a poll of 1,000 is proven to be accurite with in a plus or minus of 4 %

[Meat Manager]

Hum my neighbor and fellow deer hunter was the head of the math and statisics dept. of a major college in Rochester, we talked about the Nys dec,method of tracking deer takes more then once.

I'll can't speak in the same language of this math prof. but he seemed to feel it was an accurate method. Why do you feel its not ?

They establish a base line of known deer killed in the tens of thousands,monitor the reporting rate of those known deer killed, and extrapolate for the number of tags sold.

Heck a poll of 1,000 is proven to be accurite with in a plus or minus of 4 %

There you go using math and scientifically collected data and common sense....don't you know these guys have a feeling it's because all the hunters who don't hunt enough are killing too many does resulting in less bucks seen during the day?

Seriously though Larry, thanks for the breath of fresh air. Way above average temps just makes too much sense for some of these guys.

My boy who is an excellent hunter has legally bagged about 14 deer in the past three seasons between PA & NY hunting only a handful of days. He has 3 this year in as many attempts including a 9 point today.

I am an average hunter, but I haven't made tag soup in the 7 years I have hunted in Ny

[13BVET]

Wow, this is getting confusing. Don't shoot does, too many young bucks must be being taken, because all I see is young bucks, etc. Baffles the mind. I figure, by the time all is said and done, that no deer should be taken at all. Interesting input.

[nyantler]

Actually most does in the Southern tier, give birth to 2 deer each year... so it could be 2 bucks next year and sometimes they triplet.

True, that is mother natures way of ensuring the continues existance of the whitetail... and not most.. but some does have 2 and 3 fawns depending on certain things conditions like population, food source and so on.. there is a direct corrilation between habitat health and number of fawns born... only over harvesting of does would reduce buck numbers to a measurable level... anyone who advocates not having any doe harvest at all knows little or nothing about overall habitat and whitetail managing.

[Doc]

I obviously know that "a little pressure from hunters is a good thing." The original point you made was that because fewer hunters are dedicated to hunt beyond the first days of gun season we have seen less deer in the past several years (which is not the case for me, only this year seems atypical, and the weather has been just that, atypical), and I say this is nonsense, if anything the trapsing of the typically loud, stinky, and unaware gun hunters push the deer nocturnal regardless of weather.

It is always interesting how many excuses we can all come up with when trying to figure out why we are not seeing deer. I think I have heard them all from moon phase on opening day to unusual weather, and I think most of them may have a touch of validity at any given time. I am not going to try to tell you or anyone else anything about any particular assessments of deer populations in an area where I have never hunted or in some cases never even traveled through. However, we have just concluded a thread that was almost 100% in agreement that hunter activity has been on a significant down-slide which is exactly what I have noted in our area, and is also what my response in this thread was about. Now even with that said, I am not trying to say that that is the case in every township in every WMU of the state. But there seems to be growing evidence from what I am hearing here on this site that more and more people are coming to the same conclusion that generally hunter participation is dropping faster than our numbers. I am simply saying that that lack of participation is at least partly responsible for lack of deer movement. Right now we are in a situation where we have just enough hunter activity to put the deer nocturnal and into their super-survival tactics, but not enough to kick them out of their sanctuaries. To me that sounds like a reasonable assumption based on observation. If that is not the case in your particular area then you will have to make your own conclusions based on situations where you hunt.