Deer Over-population

[orion]

Does QDMA play a part in it? Lots of people pushing "pass the small buck shot a doe" attitude. No does = no population growth.

If hunters want mature bucks Lets say a 4 1/2 old, even 1 that old. I WOULD THINK( I don't know) there has to be 2 -3 1/2 year old, 4 -2 1/2 and 8- 1/12 old's That brings us to15 bucks in an area! At a VERY conservative 2 to 1 doe to buck ratio we need 30 doe! That's 45 deer in your hunting area. Even if your hunting 600+ acres that 45 deer per square mile.

How many areas have that? Certainly not mine.

[landtracdeerhunter]

We have to all remember how DEC positions are filled. Who they represent when the seat is filled. They have several intrests that are considered. The sportman fit in there somewhere.

[Dad 6424]

In 4o the deer are in good body shape when you see them the deer are getting bigger BUT you have to find them we have more probs with the yotes and people messing with the country side then the deer dec is really cracking down on the lowlifes shooting out of season and at night the trouble is they are allmost making life for the good hunters ruff with the ramdom stops and check points

[the blur]

In 4o the deer are in good body shape when you see them the deer are getting bigger BUT you have to find them we have more probs with the yotes and people messing with the country side then the deer dec is really cracking down on the lowlifes shooting out of season and at night the trouble is they are allmost making life for the good hunters ruff with the ramdom stops and check points

We dropped our hunting lease in 4O, because there were no doe permits.

[nyantler]

Does QDMA play a part in it? Lots of people pushing "pass the small buck shot a doe" attitude. No does = no population growth.

If hunters want mature bucks Lets say a 4 1/2 old, even 1 that old. I WOULD THINK( I don't know) there has to be 2 -3 1/2 year old, 4 -2 1/2 and 8- 1/12 old's That brings us to15 bucks in an area! At a VERY conservative 2 to 1 doe to buck ratio we need 30 doe! That's 45 deer in your hunting area. Even if your hunting 600+ acres that 45 deer per square mile.

How many areas have that? Certainly not mine.

Good theory, but a 600 acre hunting parcel is not the total habitat for those deer.. those 45 deer will have a much larger range than that at any time of the year.... 600 acres is a pimple on the ass of the total habitat...

[orion]

NY Antler, I agree with that just trying to point out a 45 deer per square mile density. Don't know where that is in NY . Not by me.

[nyantler]

I'm sure there are places in suburbia that have 45 per sq mile easily and some more remote places that have less... deer density in a WMU is all over the map and one number will not envelope the entire WMU in most cases... and certainly would skew County density numbers... thats why it is important for hunters to educate themselves on what is going on in there own hunting areas and try to make decisions on their own about how they should approach deer hunting and what they should be harvesting... the confusion would be relying on the DEC to be giving them accurate numbers for their particular hunting area... it just simply can't be done at that small level by a state entity.

[landtracdeerhunter]

This all sounds well and good, but lets be real here. A certain amount of people have a limited amount of time for hunting, and just want to get their deer. They don't care about deer numbers or management in that area. It's nice to think that their is a lot of deer management out there, a small percentage, I agree, but on a large scale, it not happening.

[nyantler]

This all sounds well and good, but lets be real here. A certain amount of people have a limited amount of time for hunting, and just want to get their deer. They don't care about deer numbers or management in that area. It's nice to think that their is a lot of deer management out there, a small percentage, I agree, but on a large scale, it not happening.

And there my friend is much of where the problem lies... and why some things are the way they are in some areas. Apathy will someday be huntings greatest downfall...

[Doc]

I have to wonder just what level of dedication and involvement a person needs in order to be called a proper hunter. Just what shortfall marks a hunter as being apathetic? Does a hunter need to obsess about all things related to hunting before he is considered to be doing his part? There are some people who look at hunting as recreation and are only looking to go out and "get a deer" ..... any deer. Some actually treat hunting as something that is a relaxing, enjoyable, activity rather than something that is a life-driving endeavor. Is that bad? Is that really any different than it has always been? In fact if we could actually track attitude trends, are people really getting less management minded about the deer herds? I don't think so. But anyway if a guy is only interested in grabbing his gun and have some fun getting a deer, I guess I am thankful for even that level of interest. The only way that hunting will ever encounter a "downfall" is when these people decide that they don't want to do that anymore.

[eagle rider]

Regular season only,..... 4W restricts the permits and makes them impossible to get without preference points. The WMU is full of does. Its rare to see a mature buck if ever (31/2 year old or better). What you do see are herds of does running across fields, in church yards, cemeteries etc. The other tell-tale sign, road kill, is everywhere. I don't understand the logic of managing them this way. Getting the genetics of the location to a higher level by giving out antlerless permits is a widely accepted approach of biologists. A tool of better management is taking the does out of the population. I also hunt a little in Rockland a little, its the complete opposite. Permits are easy to get and does are better managed. More roads, more people driving and probably fewer collisions per capita.

[Dad 6424]

In my almost 40 years of hunting I have never had a year that I have not shot at some thing BUT this year is a mess no shots and I only once put the scope to my eye the heat, the lack of deer, the yotes, and DEC . Are all to blame I have huntted my back side off this year spending days in stand and walking bow season was also bad there are not the farms to keep the deer on them the economy sucks and its not getting any better so now I have vented there is a big diffarence in the deer population then from days gone by BUT they are getting bigger in body and racks I have seen doe this year that would clear 200 lbs and some might go more so i under stand the whole thing but wow $100.00 for the license $30.00 a box for shells not to mention the fuel to get to the hunting grounds you have $200.00 invested before you pull the trigger some might think its better to go to the store and buy beef or pork and stay home where its warm ?????????

[Lever action]

This year was a strange one for sure.I actually saw more bucks than I did does,both in archery and gun season.I didn't see alot of deer but more than I did last yr.I live and hunt in 7p.

[nyantler]

I have to wonder just what level of dedication and involvement a person needs in order to be called a proper hunter. Just what shortfall marks a hunter as being apathetic? Does a hunter need to obsess about all things related to hunting before he is considered to be doing his part? There are some people who look at hunting as recreation and are only looking to go out and "get a deer" ..... any deer. Some actually treat hunting as something that is a relaxing, enjoyable, activity rather than something that is a life-driving endeavor. Is that bad? Is that really any different than it has always been? In fact if we could actually track attitude trends, are people really getting less management minded about the deer herds? I don't think so. But anyway if a guy is only interested in grabbing his gun and have some fun getting a deer, I guess I am thankful for even that level of interest. The only way that hunting will ever encounter a "downfall" is when these people decide that they don't want to do that anymore.

Apathy is apathy... the dedication or involvement to, for or in hunting would be nothing... they're just going out to get a deer... which offers no dedication or involvement .. at least the way it was stated in the post...

There are loads of hunters that look at hunting as relaxing and enjoyable that aren't apathetic to the importance of managing deer for hunting.. even in it's lowest form... managing doesn't have to just be some QDM type model.. Lord knows we haven't got much of that happening in the way of the DEC... but ensuring that everyone involved in hunting will continue to "get a deer" is worth at least a fleeting thought about deer numbers and habitat by all hunters that participate in the activity... thats all I'm saying...

I suppose just getting a deer is great for some and certainly their choice.. as it should be.. but doing nothing, deserves nothing and usually gets nothing... I don't think I agree that these people are the ones to stop the downfall.. that would be the avid hunters and people that do care that help ensure that others who don't care can get their deer.

[Doc]

Apathy is apathy... the dedication or involvement to, for or in hunting would be nothing... they're just going out to get a deer... which offers no dedication or involvement .. at least the way it was stated in the post...

There are loads of hunters that look at hunting as relaxing and enjoyable that aren't apathetic to the importance of managing deer for hunting.. even in it's lowest form... managing doesn't have to just be some QDM type model.. Lord knows we haven't got much of that happening in the way of the DEC... but ensuring that everyone involved in hunting will continue to "get a deer" is worth at least a fleeting thought about deer numbers and habitat by all hunters that participate in the activity... thats all I'm saying...

I suppose just getting a deer is great for some and certainly their choice.. as it should be.. but doing nothing, deserves nothing and usually gets nothing... I don't think I agree that these people are the ones to stop the downfall.. that would be the avid hunters and people that do care that help ensure that others who don't care can get their deer.

I think you might be surprised at just what percent of all hunters fall into the category of "super-casual participants". Maybe we don't like to recognize these guys as "real" hunters, but like it or not, they have always been a large part of the entire hunting community. Even though forums such as these leave us with the impression that most hunters are very involved in learning about, practicing and attempting to force all kinds of deer management, the fact is that the overwhelming majority of hunters don't belong to these forums or hunting advocacy organizations or any kind of political entity that works for hunting, and they really approach their hunting with a very limited amount of interest. They are not into the politics of hunting and don't want to be turned into activists. Like it or not, it truly is up to a very small minority of hunters to actually shape deer management. But it is that much larger silent majority of hunters that we sometimes look down on that give us the numbers to be taken seriously as a significant segment of society. Without those numbers, we will never keep the ear of the movers and shakers (political entities) that regulate and even allow hunting. So while we may wish that all who hunt would be militant and active in the politics of hunting, that notion is really not all that realistic. It never has been and it never will be. But that doesn't mean that we needn't concern ourselves over the loss of those hunters. Just the periodic publication of articles that indicate that hunting is a faltering activity is a severly damaging piece of data for us. Politicians and bureaucrats look at those trends and see another segment of the population that they needn't waste their time and efforts working for.

[nyantler]

I think you might be surprised at just what percent of all hunters fall into the category of "super-casual participants". Maybe we don't like to recognize these guys as "real" hunters, but like it or not, they have always been a large part of the entire hunting community. Even though forums such as these leave us with the impression that most hunters are very involved in learning about, practicing and attempting to force all kinds of deer management, the fact is that the overwhelming majority of hunters don't belong to these forums or hunting advocacy organizations or any kind of political entity that works for hunting, and they really approach their hunting with a very limited amount of interest. They are not into the politics of hunting and don't want to be turned into activists. Like it or not, it truly is up to a very small minority of hunters to actually shape deer management. But it is that much larger silent majority of hunters that we sometimes look down on that give us the numbers to be taken seriously as a significant segment of society. Without those numbers, we will never keep the ear of the movers and shakers (political entities) that regulate and even allow hunting. So while we may wish that all who hunt would be militant and active in the politics of hunting, that notion is really not all that realistic. It never has been and it never will be. But that doesn't mean that we needn't concern ourselves over the loss of those hunters. Just the periodic publication of articles that indicate that hunting is a faltering activity is a severly damaging piece of data for us. Politicians and bureaucrats look at those trends and see another segment of the population that they needn't waste their time and efforts working for.

Unfotunately for hunting.. all of what you said is exactly how it is.. and kind of the point i was making about where the problem lies.

[SteveB]

i under stand the whole thing but wow $100.00 for the license $30.00 a box for shells not to mention the fuel to get to the hunting grounds you have $200.00 invested before you pull the trigger some might think its better to go to the store and buy beef or pork and stay home where its warm ?????????

For $98 you get fishing, small game, big game, bowhunting and muzzleloading licenses and a turkey permit and an entry into the dmp lottery.

You can get the small/big game for $29.

[Doc]

Unfotunately for hunting.. all of what you said is exactly how it is.. and kind of the point i was making about where the problem lies.

I do always get reminded of just how few hunters are intimately involved with the politics of hunting when I try to get them to contact legislators about pending hunting or gun legislation. That can get to be quite frustrating, but really points out just what a huge percent of guys are in hunting to any extent other than to simply "get their deer". Another telling stat is the tiny percent of hunters who even bother to belong to the NRA. Yes many of them have all kinds of wild excuses (made up strictly to avoid involvement). The same thing applies to the lack of interest and involvement in wild game management procedures. But it still ocurs to me that as disconnected as these people are, we need those people in our hunter ranks even if they are nothing other than a simple voter registration number. I don't think that a lot of people realize just how damaging these reports of shrinking hunter numbers really is to our credible influence with legislators and other officials involved in game management funding and procedures.