Deer Over-population

[Doc]

Thinking back to all the conversations here about the necessity of keeping deer populations low for a healthy herd, it started me thinking that I have never seen a starving deer since the big deer yard at the south end of Honeoye lake back in the 80's. Now that was an extreme case where the herd was allowed to expand way beyond any sense of reasonableness. But I was thinking that since that time, the herd level has occasionally been fairly high and yet all the deer that I have gotten have been quite fat and healthy. Also, I have yet to locally see a browse-line in recent years (other than the ornamental trees in my yard ..... lol), or any other sign that the population is stressed by high numbers. These observations from a WMU that has traditionally been one of the highest producing units (per square mile) in the state (8N). I have to admit that I only get to see a very tiny part of the state and I often wonder about other parts of the state.

So when there is talk about the necessity of continually increasing doe harvests it makes me wonder if the DEC really is excessively bending over for the anti-deer interests (see the composition of the CFTs) as opposed to worrying about the actual carrying capacity of the habitat. I know it's a delicate balance, but I am always curious to try to figure out when the anti-deer financial interests are being over-satisfied at the expense of the hunter.

Oh-oh .... I'm wandering a bit. So anyway, finally the question...... Have any of you recently (within the past 2 decades) ever found evidence of over-browsing, deer starvation, or poor deer physical condition due to over-population. What's it really like out there around the state. I'm not making any kind of judgement as to whether such over-populated situations exist, I am simply curious as to whether anyone here has ever observed them (and where).

[SteveMcD]

Doc.. here in 3F back in the early 90's we had an over abundance of deer, that literally destroyed stands of hemlock trees in the state park by my home (state park is no hunting, surrounding area gets hunted), anyway when we had back to back bad winters in the 95 and 96, it devastated the deer herd. Then it bounced back in the next four years, where again I noticed large herds of deer and quite a bit of starvation and winter kill off around 2003. I guess though it depends on where you are in the state, I hunt 3F, 3N, 4Y and 4J, and the deer numbers just are not there any more, 20 years ao I would go out hunting and see 20 or more deer a day. Now I see about that many in an entire season. Way too many DMP's and a Rifle season that is too long. We should have a one buck rule regardless of number of licences and a stricter DMP allocation. I think the DEC caters to the Farm Bureau and the Insurance companies, we just get lip service.

Edited December 8, 2011 by SteveMcD

[SteveNY]

I hunt 3A and 3H, both are now AR WUMs. 3H has been for about 3 seasons and 3A just started this season.

When I started deer hunting around 16 years old (now 29), I used to see at LEAST 10 deer a season in the woods.

4-5 seasons ago DEC totally stopped issuing DMPs for 3A and 3H, and still have not given them out to this day.

3 seasons ago I saw 5 bear and NO deer.

2 seasons ago, I saw 3 bear and one doe.

Last season I saw NOTHING!

This year I saw a doe opening day and that's all I can say for putting over 75+ hours in the woods this season so far.

The areas I hunt just plain suck now. I don't know if its the warm weather or what ever.

I'm not a deer biologist, but to answer your question, there is no over-population problems here.

EDIT: Also, there are food sources all over the place that are never even touched. Tons of apples/acorn/browse all over my area.

Edited December 8, 2011 by SteveNY

[orion]

There has been a lot less deer by me since they started handing out DMP's individually instead of to a "Party of 4" or so. I have always seen acorns not eaten, ground under apple trees covered with apples all hunting season. Have to mow foodplotscause deer aren't keeping them down, other fields need mowing or the trees (regeneration!) take over. If I see 10 deer a season it was a good year now. There is no reason not to see 2-3 deer a day hunting in NY, besides the slaughter of the deer herd

[Fishon]

From what ive seen in my area i will never shoot a doe. There arent alot of deer around the area. I hear alot of coyotes at night. They need to be exterminated.

[growalot]

What gets me is they say just look at the browse line and there is no under story growth...well duhhh....now take the time to look up and see the tree canopy....when timber prices were good we and many others logged...for us it was a selective logging and it brought about a great amount of under story growth....for about 5yrs...then oppps every thing started dieing the minute the caterpillars decreased in Numbers and the canopy filled in....now all young trees dying and little vegetation....but timber prices are so low no one wants to log...but the deer are getting the blame...Lets remember when the regrowth started and all those tops were a critter friendly tangle.... deer weren't the only thing taking advantage...turkey...chucks...raccoons...voles(which are one of the worst tree girders)...rabbits...ect....do you think they just packed up and left over night?..AAUUUGGGHHH don't get me going

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Tha last winter kill I saw, Doc was around 79 or 80 in the Tughill area. I gre up hunting 6r and 6s and hadn't seen any issues. When I moved to Rochester I hunted mainly 8N and 8H. 8N popolations are way down compared to what I remember seeing in the early to mid 90's. 8H. well that is another story. in the area I am in the land access can be a bear and the population is still very strong. It is one of those areas were they never give out all the permits they want to. Lat year I think they still had left overs going into the last week of the regular season. It can be tough hunting here though becasue thee is just enough pressure that they head to one of the little blocks were no hunting is allowed. Gives the appearance that they up an vanish. Typicaly the last weekend of shotguna nd ML week is good here becasue they start to filter out of their safe havens for food sources. The weather has been so nice I don't know how it will do this year but I think the numbers are very stong here still.

[Doc]

It can be tough hunting here though becasue thee is just enough pressure that they head to one of the little blocks were no hunting is allowed. Gives the appearance that they up an vanish.

I kind of wonder in those areas where a lot of land is posted up and under hunted just how the DEC compensates for that with their permit allocations. It could work that the harvests are under what they expected so they assume a low population and cut permit numbers. Or it could work that they recognize the situation and are dis-satisfied with the qty of deer being removed and flood the area with permits trying to get at those excess deer that they know are still in the area. That wouldn't be a real good deal for huntable lands.

That is the one thing that I never understood about the permit system. When low harvest numbers are recorded do they assume the population is down and permits should be cut or do they assume the hunters aren't doing a good enough job and require more permits? Thinking could go either way couldn't it? Maybe that's a flaw with trying to manage with only using calculated numbers.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I actually think you hit it on the head and that is why it seems we do get a good number of mature bucks out here. the ones that don't make it to the safe areas )either from bad luck or just dumb...lol) get about totally cleaned out and after season the others filter back in and distribute a little more evenly.

[Doc]

Doc.. here in 3F back in the early 90's we had an over abundance of deer, that literally destroyed stands of hemlock trees in the state park by my home (state park is no hunting, surrounding area gets hunted), anyway when we had back to back bad winters in the 95 and 96, it devastated the deer herd. Then it bounced back in the next four years, where again I noticed large herds of deer and quite a bit of starvation and winter kill off around 2003. I guess though it depends on where you are in the state, I hunt 3F, 3N, 4Y and 4J, and the deer numbers just are not there any more, 20 years ao I would go out hunting and see 20 or more deer a day. Now I see about that many in an entire season. Way too many DMP's and a Rifle season that is too long. We should have a one buck rule regardless of number of licences and a stricter DMP allocation. I think the DEC caters to the Farm Bureau and the Insurance companies, we just get lip service.

The account of heavy winter kill in '95 and '96 followed by the quick resurgence in the next 4 years shows just how resilient deer are. And yet you and others talk about something in those units that is starting to resemble a permanent irreversible removal of the deer herd. What gives? Are they still issuing that many permits that they are maintaining a near non-existant herd? It sounds like permit issuance should be suspended for a while. Are there habitat indicators that show that the deer herd is that low (excessive under-utilization of food, etc.? Is there something about the habitat that it will no longer support a growing herd? See all this stuff is something that I have never seen here except for the heavy deer yards and die-off back in the 80's that I mentioned in my original post. So I am quite interested in some of the replies that I am reading here in this thread.

[Doc]

I actually think you hit it on the head and that is why it seems we do get a good number of mature bucks out here. the ones that don't make it to the safe areas )either from bad luck or just dumb...lol) get about totally cleaned out and after season the others filter back in and distribute a little more evenly.

See that is a factor that you never hear about from the DEC when they are lecturing on their management techniques. Every seminar or discussion that I have ever attended, treats deer management like it is occurring in a college labratory or in a petri dish or something. Even outside deer management organizations (QDMA) treat deer management like all variables are controllable and contained. You seldom hear real life scenarios talked about that actually exist in a big way out here in the real world that apply to 90% of the state. At least that's my take on what I read and hear.

[k burke]

Down here where I hunt it's clear the deer are either very overpopulated still (in Northern NJ, 3S - Westchester) or still abundant (3M, 3P,3N). I usually see deer just about every outing including those I may see along the roads to my hunting areas. Very obvious browse lines are still easy to see in many areas with little to no undergrowth other than Mt. Laurel. In general, I also think that winter kills (at least large ones) and browse lines are on the extreme end of the over population spectrum. For example, you may not have an clear browse line and still have deer numbers that are too high for other species such as grouse or rabbit - which I like to hunt also.

I'm also sure that the DEC does not have the funds to get more boots on the ground for habitat surveys on a regular basis for all areas so certain areas can see low populations until the permit allocation is adjusted based on habitat.

[coyoteman]

I believe one of the problems is people get a permit and think they have to use it. How many times have you heard I've only seen one doe, then that is followed by I shot it. If people have that mentality the deer don't have a fighting chance. The DEC should lay off the permits for a while. I was wondering if the claims that Coyotes and other factors claim 60% of Fawns and we kill 10% of Does, how can they repopulate?

[Doc]

I believe one of the problems is people get a permit and think they have to use it. How many times have you heard I've only seen one doe, then that is followed by I shot it. If people have that mentality the deer don't have a fighting chance. The DEC should lay off the permits for a while. I was wondering if the claims that Coyotes and other factors claim 60% of Fawns and we kill 10% of Does, how can they repopulate?

There are still people who actually believe in the DEC (kind of like believing in Santa Clause ... lol) and figure that if permits are issued, it is their job to support the DEC efforts to get populations back in line. If only all that were really true......lol.

One comment about the statement that "The DEC should lay off permits for a while" ...... That may very well be true in some localities of the state, but such blanket statements that seem to be meant for the entire state are not necessarily appropriate everywhere. You probably already realize that and simply neglected to indicate that that statement applies only in certain WMUs. We have enough "one size fits all" solutions being proposed

[13BVET]

I can tell you that the southern portion of 3F, there are no shortage of deer. The only reason they're not being seen in the woods (or lack thereof), is because they are in peoples' back yards. Here are prime examples of that. Warren Rd., Fishkill-overwhelmed with deer. Can't hunt them there, because of all the new McMansions. Take a ride through there at any time of the day, and you'll see tons of them along the road feeding in the lawns. Merritt Boulevard, Fishkill-again overwhelmed with deer. They congregate at night by the dozens on this road-especially at the intersection of Rt. 52. Downstate, Matteawan, Stony Kill Farm, Castle Point-All breeding grounds for deer, where you can't hunt. There are certainly no shortage of deer in this area, and consistently get hit on Rt. 9D. Hyde Park, NY-virtually no hunting around here. Tons of deer out at night. Fallkill County Park, and the State property down the road, are loaded. City of Poughkeepsie (yes, city)-the park on Innis Avenue consistently has deer in it at night-especially bucks. In fact, many roads in that area have deer wandering at night. The point is, there are tons of deer, they're just NOT in the woods!

[Jennifer]

I believe one of the problems is people get a permit and think they have to use it.

I'm not sure I understand. Why would someone apply for a DMP (which costs $10... not much to some, but right now could be a few meals for some folks) if they didn't want to use it?

[132 eight pointer]

A few of my observations recently : I have been deer hunting in unit 8n, I have only seen 2 deer (running) out of 5 trips.I did have a coyote walking about 20 yds from me one morning. On cty rt 37 last weekend I noticed several apple trees with many uneaten apples on the ground and tree.Driving home on rt 65 in unit 8h I saw a doe feeding in a field at aprox 12:30 in the afternoon.(no pressure ?).Last night I was traveling in the village of Brockport when a young doe ran across the road,another was waiting to cross.I do not know what hunting is allowed in that area.I see plenty of deer in populated areas including my residential neighborhood, and not so many in "the sticks".Also I have never found any indication of malnourished or starved deer. Usually the deer I have taken have fat reserves on them.

[coyoteman]

I'm not sure I understand. Why would someone apply for a DMP (which costs $10... not much to some, but right now could be a few meals for some folks) if they didn't want to use it?

Until a few years ago they didn't charge extra for permit with sportsman license. The people that apply think the DEC is right about the need to kill so many Doe. I hope this clears it up.

Doc, you are right some places do need more Doe killed and I also believe the DMP areas are to large to be managed right.

[Jennifer]

Until a few years ago they didn't charge extra for permit with sportsman license. The people that apply think the DEC is right about the need to kill so many Doe. I hope this clears it up.

Doc, you are right some places do need more Doe killed and I also believe the DMP areas are to large to be managed right.

Thanks for the clarification. I couldn't remember if we always paid for them or not. My dad calls it his "$10 donation to the DEC" because we don't have to seem to have good luck getting them.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Jennifer

[sits in trees]

in my dmp 3m they give out more doe permits than just about anywhere else in NY state, we have the highest deer car collisions in the state and i basically dodge one or 2 a week in the mornings on the way to work. i have had family members have deer come right thru the winshield and personally know of 2 people who were seriously injured by hitting deer, one on a motorcycle. i dont think the DEC giving out doe permits is any type of gov conspiracy.

[nyantler]

I think the push to reduce deer populations is more about diminishing habitat than it is about amount of deer... sometimes what the DEC fails to consider is that populations aren'tt the same not just in the WMU's but within different areas of the WMU's... It is a daunting task trying to create harvest regulations with the abundance of different type habitat within even the smallest of WMU's... not sure what the answer is.... for every agricultural hunting area in any WMU there is just as many suburban hunting areas that hold deer as well.. yet all come under the same harvest regulations. Just here in 7f we have all kinds of habitat and deer populations depending on how far down the road you travel.

[the blur]

in my dmp 3m they give out more doe permits than just about anywhere else in NY state, we have the highest deer car collisions in the state and i basically dodge one or 2 a week in the mornings on the way to work. i have had family members have deer come right thru the winshield and personally know of 2 people who were seriously injured by hitting deer, one on a motorcycle. i dont think the DEC giving out doe permits is any type of gov conspiracy.

Last year, I saw many many deer of exit 119. I almost hit 4 doe on opening day, just off the exit. Then I saw 12 doe yarded up on some farmland by the school. This year I saw NOTHING.

[nyantler]

Last year, I saw many many deer of exit 119. I almost hit 4 doe on opening day, just off the exit. Then I saw 12 doe yarded up on some farmland by the school. This year I saw NOTHING.

Last year snow fell in Nov and didn't leave til March.. didn't happen this year.

[Fletch]

I hunt 7a, 7f and 7m the most. I have not come across any starved deer or even skinny ones besides run out post rut bucks. There seems to be a good number of deer on private land in this area and the public land gets pretty cleaned out. Non hunting places for example Green Lakes State Park have extremely noticeable over browsing. The zones contain too many different areas and are too big to manage correctly for the whole area. Once the guns start deer know where to go that hunters can not.

[Doc]

I see plenty of deer in populated areas including my residential neighborhood, and not so many in "the sticks".

This is the phenomenon that makes me wonder if some of those wonderful statistical management schemes aren't being skewed by these kinds of things. It is just possible that they are over harvesting in areas that can be hunted in an attempt to get harvest results that make the entire WMU average out with the right numbers. That's not a statement ..... just a point of curiosity.