fatal shooting in st lawrence county last evening.

[bubba]

and you are right the road blocks here suck every week. But they are catching illegal smokes and drugs. Maybe we can hunt together this fall if you dont shoot at me lol.

[NFA-ADK]

Ok my 2 cents. Sorry for starting this BO argument but I apparently caused it. Statistics are not facts. Statistics say it is safer if you wear BO. So we say it is a fact BO saves lives. Except for this poor guy who got shot wearing BO. So how did BO help him, it did not. FACT disproved or he would be ALIVE. We like to say "Statisticaly BO is a proven safety factor" would be a much better arguement...

Common sense, identify your target, placing your shots and hunting legally would have saved him. If the IDIOT behind the gun followed any of these precations he would not be in jail today and this guy would be alive...

Your point on BO safety are valid and I am not saying BO does not work, yet it is not a fact it will save you from some moron with no common sense. Stupidity, neglect, drugs, improper handleing of a fire arm and lack of common sense I would argue cause more fatalities than not wearing BO. This last year is a good example of lack of common sense and how more people get hurt and killed due to it. 2011 safety report coming soon, does not look good...

Do I use BO, Yes. Public property, a large volumn of hunters, inexperienced hunters and drives are all valid uses for BO and I do wear it then. But up in the Norther zone I don't unless doing a drive. I always though, due to the fact that hunters must identify the deer(rifle) as a buck made it safer, BO would not be required. This past season had me 2nd guesing that. Many a round flew by me during bow season in the ADK.

Thanks for having early bear season during bow DEC ontop of the yote hunters.

So much for useing a bow when the woods are "quiet"... More round fired around me using bow than during all my rifle seasons... Guese BO should be required during bow now... Why not require all hunter all seasons and any hikers or people during those seasons to wear BO while in any hunting area, great another gov. law protecting us... But we would be safer... Just like seatbelt laws make it required so everyone is safer... Yes I am taking it to the max to prove a point don't take this litteraly...

The few times I have had rounds fly by me BO would not have prevented it as I was visually our of range. And usually it was due to lack of common sense.

Do not go target shooting on public land. Do not shoot at any game you can not see and identify. Stop shooting when you can not see your prey. Place your shot. Always treat guns with respect. Always remember once you pull that trigger the bullet can never be taken back!

Best hunting trip is when all return home SAFE, everything else is just details... God bless this poor guy and his family who lost his life enjoying the outdoors due to the neglect of another.

[Doc]

Ok my 2 cents. Sorry for starting this BO argument but I apparently caused it. Statistics are not facts. Statistics say it is safer if you wear BO. So we say it is a fact BO saves lives. Except for this poor guy who got shot wearing BO. So how did BO help him, it did not. FACT disproved or he would be ALIVE. We like to say "Statisticaly BO is a proven safety factor" would be a much better arguement...

Common sense, identify your target, placing your shots and hunting legally would have saved him. If the IDIOT behind the gun followed any of these precations he would not be in jail today and this guy would be alive...

Your point on BO safety are valid and I am not saying BO does not work, yet it is not a fact it will save you from some moron with no common sense. Stupidity, neglect, drugs, improper handleing of a fire arm and lack of common sense I would argue cause more fatalities than not wearing BO. This last year is a good example of lack of common sense and how more people get hurt and killed due to it. 2011 safety report coming soon, does not look good...

Do I use BO, Yes. Public property, a large volumn of hunters, inexperienced hunters and drives are all valid uses for BO and I do wear it then. But up in the Norther zone I don't unless doing a drive. I always though, due to the fact that hunters must identify the deer(rifle) as a buck made it safer, BO would not be required. This past season had me 2nd guesing that. Many a round flew by me during bow season in the ADK.

Thanks for having early bear season during bow DEC ontop of the yote hunters.

So much for useing a bow when the woods are "quiet"... More round fired around me using bow than during all my rifle seasons... Guese BO should be required during bow now... Why not require all hunter all seasons and any hikers or people during those seasons to wear BO while in any hunting area, great another gov. law protecting us... But we would be safer... Just like seatbelt laws make it required so everyone is safer... Yes I am taking it to the max to prove a point don't take this litteraly...

The few times I have had rounds fly by me BO would not have prevented it as I was visually our of range. And usually it was due to lack of common sense.

Do not go target shooting on public land. Do not shoot at any game you can not see and identify. Stop shooting when you can not see your prey. Place your shot. Always treat guns with respect. Always remember once you pull that trigger the bullet can never be taken back!

Best hunting trip is when all return home SAFE, everything else is just details... God bless this poor guy and his family who lost his life enjoying the outdoors due to the neglect of another.

First of all, let me point out that no one has ever said that blaze orange makes you bullet-proof. And no one is saying that no one wearing blaze orange will ever get shot. That is like saying that if you wear a seat belt you will never be involved in an accident. Is that true? ..... Of course not. Is it true that texting laws and cellphone laws are no good because people get into accidents that are not using cellphones? ..... Of course not. Do all these things save lives? ..... You bet!

A word about stats .... If somebody shows you data that 94% of the cases of incidents where other hunters were mistaken for game involved individuals that were not wearing B/O, and you still do not appreciate the effectiveness and significance of B/O as a safety feature, then I guess carrying the conversation any further is pointless. Oh, and by the way, this same study found that 81% of deer hunters in NYS routinely use blaze orange, so that 94% is coming from only 19% of the hunters. If from that data you cannot deduct that B/O saves lives, then again further discussion is useless. These numbers are not theoretical they are collected data. So the issue of whether B/O saves lives is just plain not really in question.

Does the use of blaze orange negate the need to follow other safety rules or abide by hunting laws? ..... I don't recall anybody ever saying that or even suggesting that, so I don't understand why anybody would stir that into a B/O discussion. Naturally that stuff is important. Who would ever suggest that its not? But that is not an "either/or" proposition.

How about the stat where these 19% of the hunters not wearing B/O account for twice as many "in the line of fire" shootings. That tells me that there are a bunch of cases where that flash of blaze orange is causing a lot of people to hold back on pulling the trigger. Yes, I would say that B/O is saving lives and I would say that the stats show that to anyone willing to open their mind and read the material.

"Out of sight" shootings and "unintentional discharge" don't seem to show much of a difference between blaze orange wearers and non blaze orange wearers. Now there's a surprise ..... lol. Did anyone expect blaze orange to work when you can't see it? Has anyone here ever said that? ....Not me.

Look, I didn't make up these stats, I just have posted the links (Many times). It's up to others who want to argue against B/O to find some reasonable credible rebutting stats. You know, if people refuse to even examine the facts when they're laid out in front of them, there's not much more I can do. But for those that are new to hunting, or on the fence or uneducated about the effectiveness of B/O, I can only offer these rebutting comments and data. After that it's up to the good common sense that God gave you to make your own choices. Recognizing that there are hunters afield that exhibit all the traits you mentioned, "Stupidity, neglect, drugs, improper handleing of a fire arm and lack of common sense", I think the proper choices definitely involve giving these guys some additional visual signal that I am not something to be shot at. To me that makes a lot of sense. And by the way, those people you mentioned don't only hunt on "Public property" or in drives or in the southern zone.

[NFA-ADK]

I wonder if those are the same people who MADE UP the stats for last year? NYS Tied for 1st Safest hunting state.

We supposedly tied for safest state yet this poor guy is not incuded in those stats.

And you wonder why I do not give a shit about stats...Stats are made up by the person doing them, and he will do anything to get the stats in his favor to prove something... Like BO is safe.

If that is the case then NY as a safest state should have every other state follow us and allow half the state to not use BO so they can keep up with our stats...

Plain and simple if you are in a area with a lot of hunters one of them is probably a idiot so wear BO!!! Unfortunatly this guy meet the one idiot in his remote area...

If I have hunters using high powered rifles and black powder while I am hunting with a bow during bow season Norther zone, should BO be required for Bow season? Because that is what happened last year, I was encircled by other rifle and black power hunters.

PS: None were in BO just like me. But if BO is Proven to save lives then make every one where them if in around or near any woods, lets say 100-200 ft. If you are caught in the woods during any hunting season with out BO you should get fined... All hikers, boaters, campers, picnic area's and any other area that MIGHT have a hunter in it would be required BO or a 500 fine to make sure all wear it and NYS is safe... Sarcasm at it's finest! How far do you want NYS to protect you?

IF you are such a BO safety advocate get this law passed to save us poor NYers. It will save some one thats for sure... I just think every law that is passed takes away a little more freedom. While I do advocate safety first, the last thing I worry about is getting shot buy some idiot up north, now in the south that is another story. BO is a matter of oppinion for each hunter and in my oppinion it did not save this guy and makes me wonder if that is why he is not included in the NYS Safest of all states Stats from 2011...

[Doc]

Wow! ... talk about a delayed reaction ..... lol.

There is nothing in your reply that has not already been answered in the past 4 pages, so I guess I'll let this one rest. It seems to be a very devisive topic that no one really wants to change there mind about, so further redundant discussion seems kind of worthless. If it shows back up in legislation, there may be some point to going through the whole discussion again.

[landtracdeerhunter]

NFA-ADK brings up a very good point about stats. Been saying this all along. The definitions of hunting related accidents are clearly written to keep New York one of the safest states. Others states include all hunting related accident-death, reguardless of circumstance. It bothers me to show public," a false sense of security", that stat numbers would be much higher if definitions were written as other states have them.

[NFA-ADK]

That is my main point. Stats can be manipulated to reflect what you want them to... And I disagree with NYS in the fact that they do not include all releated injury/deaths. Hunting is one of the few sports where getting shot and killed is a realistic thing to worry about and to paint the picture any other way is misleading...

I played many sports as a kid and my parents would have never let me handle a gun during those years, not to mention hunting... The main reason is they knew the facts about hunting and it's safety factors don't mean anything if some idiot shoots me with or with out BO... And that is a real threat that can happen any time any place while hunting...

Any injury that can happen in any other sport can happen while hunting. Try climbing with a day pack and a gun, easy no, dangerous yes!!! And if you fall you can be killed. Animal attacts, drowning, hypothermia, getting lost, sprains, broken bones, heart attacts, tree stand or broad head injury, you may call hunting safe yet I see it as one of the most dangerous adventures I take every year.

PS: Doc I did wait a long time due to a few things. I wanted to see if this guy was included and check some other info...

[Paula]

Wow! ... talk about a delayed reaction ..... lol.

There is nothing in your reply that has not already been answered in the past 4 pages, so I guess I'll let this one rest.

You couldn't help yourself, you were going to let it rest and yet your fingers just kept typing lol

[Doc]

You couldn't help yourself, you were going to let it rest and yet your fingers just kept typing lol

????

[bubba]

yup

Edited July 8, 2012 by bubba

[bubba]

well the shooter pleaded guilty yesterday to criminally negligent homicide in county court. He faces up to 4 years in state prison when sentenced 10/1. I hope he gets all of that.

[NFA-ADK]

He should get life, he took some one's and now he only gets 4 years max, pathetic. He should get at least 20 as the minimum. The family he affected will never get thier dad, husband,son or brother back.

When the hunters education course is taught, they can introduce manslaughter into the class, but O WAIT we cant do that that would mean that hunting is dangerous... That is forbiden to say hunting is a dangerous endevour... We might not get more people involved...

No other sport has death as a possibility. Not that you can't die playing a sport, yet hunting is the only sport where some one getting shot is a realistic part of the equation.

God bless this poor guy that was killed and his family. And screw the NYS safest BS club because this guy was not incuded, and people wonder why stats do not mean shit to me...

Sorry but this subject gets my blood pumping...

[steve863]

No other sport has death as a possibility. Not that you can't die playing a sport, yet hunting is the only sport where some one getting shot is a realistic part of the equation.

How do you come to the conclusion that only hunting has death as a possibility? You make it sound like going hunting is like going to war where chances are good that you will be sent home in a body bag. More people get killed or maimed participating in other sports and pastimes than they do in hunting and that is fact. Sure getting shot is a possibility, but with the millions of hunters out there all around the country, very few actually do get shot or killed by gunshot or bowshot. Plenty of other pastimes that are considerably more dangerous where your chances of serious injury or death are much higher. If you take treestands out of the hunting equation, then there is even less chance of accidents. And one can be quite successful at hunting without them. So if you want to play it really safe, don't hunt from treestands.

[NFA-ADK]

Name one sport where getting shot or killed by another person is a reality...

[Culvercreek hunt club]

NFA-ADK.

In the legal sense INTENT is required for it to be murder. I am sur eif the DA thought they could have gotten more they would have. I really think you are over dramatizing the dangers in hunting. Well at least the liklihood of those dangers. You talk about your parents being so concerned that they wouldn't let you hunt but they let you play sports. Mind if I ask what kind of sports?

[steve863]

So if a bicyclist gets mowed down by a truck, or if a mountain climbers loses his grip and falls 1000 feet to his death, their death is any less final than of someone who was shot?? Your logic isn't quite making sense here.

[NFA-ADK]

I never said hunting was the only sport where death was a possiblitly... SO please do not put words in my mouth.

O boy I can see the stats coming... I played football, basketball, lacross, baseball, ice hockey, wrestling, karate and a few other sports, guese what not one person died while I played all those sports and NOT ONE PERSON WAS MAIMED FOR LIFE EVER. You might want to re-read my post, I did not say you can not die in other sports, it is just not a realistic possiblitly for the most part and if it was the sport would change to make it safer...

EX: NASCAR has new safety straps for the neck due to a death...

Hunting is a dangerous pastime. Besides climbing trees with a stand, we climb moutians, cliffs, ledges, and steep ravines. We carry a loaded weapon, and are subseptible to heart attack/over exhertion, weather and the animals. You may think hunting is safe yet it is not, depite the fact that you might wear BO and take all the precations that still does not mean you are safe from some idiot, a mother bear or moose, loose gravel on a steep cliff, or injury from a fall to name just a few.

NYS would like to make it seem like it's all fun and games and for the most part hunting is, yet to say thier is no danger and you do not have to worry about some things is BS. IF you think hunting is so safe let me take you out WITH OUT BO in the southern zone for a few days, bet you change your mind then. If that is not good enough I will invite you up to the ADK for 1 of 3 weeks I am going hunting. If those moutians and the 45 plus min ride on a dirt road do not scare you great, just do not get lost like so many people do every year and never get out alive, just another thing to worry about, GETTING LOST...

In so far as not hunting from a stand, I have not in over 7 years so that would not be a bid deal but that does not mean I will not this year. If I was that paranoid of stand hunting I would not do it. But just because you are not in a stand does not mean you can not get hurt just as easy by a fall off a legde, cliff, or just a bad area that twists your anckles.

PS: IF hunting was so safe we would NOT NEED BO, yea try getting some stats for that one... O BOY

[steve863]

Well, what else can I tell you NFA?? If you think hunting is so bloody dangerous, then you should take up needlepoint or something? Hell, just don't forget the needles on the sofa and then sit down on them by accident. That would be sort of like a Texas heart shot! LOL

[Postedboys One Shot Doug]

If somehow you could instill the idea of "picking a spot" on the deer when shooting, there would never be another mistaken identity shooting. You cannot be looking to place the slug or bullet into specific lethal areas of the deer and then mistake a person for a deer. So many people think that if you hit a deer anywhere in the body it's all over. So naturally, any brown flash through the brush gets an immediate shot (or 5). Anyone who was actually trying to place their shot only in a lethal spot could never think that any person was a deer. You just couldn't do it. Perhaps this is a point that should be driven home a little better by hunter safety instruction or perhaps we have to increase peer pressure to the point where we refuse to hunt with someone who doesn't place their shots carefully.

Of course we know that the idea of picking a spot on the deer is not necessarily ever going to be universally accepted as a requirement to pulling the trigger. Not everybody has that level of respect for the animal to try to ensure a quick and humane kill. A simple movement is sometimes all it takes for some to shoot. That's how people get mistaken for deer and it's a damned shame and totally unnecessary.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

NFA-ADK Oh for goodness sake don't be such a drama queen. your trip to and from the hunt is the most dangerous part of your adventure. And you know the stats will be coming on the other sports you listed. while it may not have happend to anyone you played with their certainly are maming and injuries and deaths form those sports every year. THis isn't tounge in cheek mny friend, If your stress over this stuff so much and think it is that dangerous of an endevour You might want to reconsider doing it. Life is too short for that stress.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Culvercreek hunt club

[fasteddie]

Name one sport where getting shot or killed by another person is a reality...

Soccer .......... the fans are nuts and there have been riots at some games and people have been killed . And .......... blaze orange isn't going to keep a fan safe at a soccer game !

[NFA-ADK]

So if a bicyclist gets mowed down by a truck, or if a mountain climbers loses his grip and falls 1000 feet to his death, their death is any less final than of someone who was shot?? Your logic isn't quite making sense here.

IF you solo moutian climb your risk of death is high. And the risk is know by that person, this is why it is safer to go with a partner while doing this activity. Same with winter hiking, it's safer with a buddy. Without your risk is much higher and usually known by the participant.

If you ride a bike or walk or get into a accident with a truck and die it does not matter if you were participating in a sport that is called an accident with a vehecle and most of those types of accidents that do involve a pedestrian can be fatal when higher speeds are involved. It does not matter what you were doing at the time, you could be selling lemonaid.

If you like to sky dive which is fun, you have a high risk of death.

IF you wake up in the morning you have a chance of dying that day, life is risky, yet to say hunting is safe... May be the shots fired over my head last year have something to do with it... O wait that should never happen in NY. Never mind, Hunting is the safest thing you can do, no risk involved go for it...

EXCEPT FOR THIS ONE GUY, O wait he was not the only one in NY killed last year. SOME ONE Please get some stats up here...j/k

My point is that hunting has some high risk in it. And guese what other sports that have high risk of death are known by the participants, jumping out of a plane is one of them... DO you think that jumping out of a plan is safer than hunting? Sure, come to the southern zone with NO BO and tell me it is safe, sure it is, no risk involved so why the need and arguments for BO then? Because it is not safe by any means, besides getting shot, lost, hurt or attacted,any number of things can happen and that is what make hunting so much fun... 10 weeks till opening of bow!!!! lets go hunting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Postedboys One Shot Doug]

I totally agree with this post. And another thing, whats up with all the empty beer cans i see out in the woods. But even hunting drunk which is crazy, you should still be able to tell a human being from a four legged animal. Unless you are hunting way past official daylight hours. Like in this case i guess. My heart goes out to that poor guys family. Thats just horrible.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

There is risk in everything we do just as you pointed out. I do disagree with you on the "high" risk of hunting. The sever potential of death or injury is there but at a far less liklihood than other sports. I just don't see it as a dangerous sport. I grew up hunting the SZ and 90% of the time on state land. never had BO (usually green and gray wool) Never got shot at once. and never knew anyone that did. It is risky and I don't think enyone will dispute that. Just not the "Russian roulette with an auto loader" that you portray.

Edited July 17, 2012 by Culvercreek hunt club

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I called and got you an appointment. (smile...J/K)