Good affordable safe? Suggestions?

[burmjohn]

Looking for a good affordable safe, that is fireproof.    I'd like to put one in my garage, I have a somewhat climate controlled 1 car garage. I was lucky enough where the slumlord that owned my house before me had made the garage an apartment, so I have baseboard heating in there for the winter that I keep at about 45 degree's (so pipes dont freeze, and so its not to cold in there)  I have limited room, so I was thinking of maybe of a 5 gun rifle safe with room for a shelf or two for important papers / stuff and ammo.  I'd like to be able to bolt it down to the cement floor if possible so its impossible to move.

Any suggestions? The safe's I have seen @ dicks and other places seem so so.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Gander carries some really nice Liberty safes. The higher end fireproof models are very very nice.

[burmjohn]

I'll have to check Gander next weekend when I pass Middletown. 

[TheHunter]

I'd like to know as well, because there seems to be so many choices.  Who do you trust?

[sbuff]

I am in the market for one too,I have been told Cannon are the best,all others are second.Gander does have some nice ones.1200 degree Farenheit would be a good fire proof rating.But you have to read close,some say it can only handle that for a hour.So you better hope it gets put out before that.

The other thing I was told you want is atleast 5 bolts in the door.So that would be like 5 dead bolts.The electronic ones are nice,but I have heard they are problematic.....

[Cabin Fever]

I got my Cannon gunsafe at Tractor Supply.

[Doc]

I have never been able to figure out the fire ratings and relate them to anything practical. For example, if I had a safe, I would also like to use it for storage of important papers and documents. However, I have absolutely no idea what temperature paper/photos/etc. ignites. Also, when it comes to ammo, I have no idea what temperature ammo will start going off and wrecking every other thing in the safe. So if there is a sticker on a safe claiming that the safe will withstand a fire with temperatures of 1200 degrees, how do I know if that's adequate. Then there's the question of just how hot is it in a typical house fire, and for how long. You would think there would be someplace that would have stats on that, but I haven't found it yet. So whatever figures the safe companies throw at you, that's only half the story. They're telling you what you get, and what you also need to know is what do you need.

Doc

[Nomad]

Doc. Sentry Safe is local, East Rochester, they were also the first to make fire safes and a leader today. Ok I did work there 10 years before getting on the Rochester FD for the last 20....

Look for a U.L lable. There are many differant ratings that will tell you time /temp. as well as temp. of average house fires etc.

The higher ratings not only give protection for higher heat and time, but they then drop it (like falling through into the basement ) and then re-heat it.

A companies own "rating" means little look for U.L. lables

This should help...http://www.klsecurity.com/fire_rating_ul.htm

Oh and ammo does NOT go off in fires. Unless you have a round in a chamber or something like that. You need that equal and opposite reaction and all.

In his book "Gunshot Wounds" Vincent Di Maio describes various experiments where ammunition was heated in ovens. He says that .22 long rifle cartridges detonate at an average of 275F, .38 Special at 290F and 12 gauge shotgun shells at 387F. The interesting thing about these furnace experiments was that in all instances the cartridge cases ruptured, but the primers did not detonate. In fact the primers were removed from some of the ruptured cases, reloaded into other brass and fired.

When cartridges are placed in a fire he confirms that the most dangerous component of a cartridge is the brass, or fragments thereof that may cause eye injury or penetrate skin, but certainly there is no evidence that a cartridge that is not in a firearm can cause a mortal wound, either by action of the bullet or the brass/primer fragments. It is important to remember however that a chambered cartridge that detonates in a fire is just as dangerous as a cartridge that is fired under normal circumstances in a firearm.

To get a better understanding of the behaviour of free-standing ammunition in a fire, he conducted experiments with a propane torch. A total of 202 cartridges (handgun, centerfire rifle and shotgun cartridges) were used. If the heat was applied directly to the base of a shotgun shell the primer would detonate, the powder would ignite and the shell would rupture. Any pellets that emerged were traveling too slowly to be recorded on a chronograph.

In rifle and handgun cartridges where the flame was applied to the base of the cartridge the primers always detonated but the powder only ignited in half the cases and in those instances the cases did not rupture but the gas was instead vented through the primer hole.

When he heated these same handgun and rifle cartridges at the front, the powder would burn and the cases would usually rupture but with few exceptions the primers did not detonate. The velocity of expelled projectiles ranged from 58 ft/s to 123 ft/s. The only exception was the .270 cartridge where the bullet velocity was 230 ft/s. Primer velocities ranged from 180 ft/s to 830 ft/s.

As a side note he says that a revolver in a fire is especially dangerous because all the cartridges can cook off and be discharged such that there is a danger from projectiles. Only the bullet that came out of the barrel will have rifling marks and the ones that came from non-aligned chambers will have shear marks on them. Obviously if there is a question about the firing of a weapon and whether it was cooked off or fired intentionally they will look for a firing-pin impression on the primer of the suspect cartridge case.

References:

Sciuchetti G.D. Ammunition and fire. American Rifleman 144(3): 36-38, 59-60, March 1996.

Cooking-Off Cartridges. NRA Illustrated Reloading Handbook. Washington, D.C.: The National Rifle Association of America.

[fasteddie]

I stopped at Harbor Freight today and saw a digital safe manufactured by Bunker Hill . Has anyone heard of them ?

http://manuals.harborfreight.com/manuals/95000-95999/95824.pdf

[Doc]

I'm guessing that if you had powder stored in the safe, there might be some hazard to guns, papers, and other valuables stored inside the safe in the case of a fire. In my case and maybe some others that would be a real possibility because a fire-proof safe would be the most likely place to store such powder. So if I had a fireproof gun safe, I might be tempted to reserve a spot inside for my gunpowder.

So I guess one question that someone might ask is if a safe went through a typical house fire and had gunpowder inside of it, do the temperatures get high enough to ignite the powder. If so, the damage to other valuables inside the safe is obvious (fire on the outside and now a fire on the inside). Knowing that little tidbit could make the difference between whether it is a good idea to store gunpowder inside the gun-safe or have another fireproof container designated for gunpowder storage.

I've always been a bit nervous about storing gunpowder on a shelf in my shop downstairs ...... talk about an accelerant!!

Anyway, thanks for the info, and I will be checking out the link you supplied right now.

Doc

[biggamefish]

  I was told that You have to becarfull with insurence and the safe.  It falls under something with the fireproofing and insurence covering the safe because of it.  I was told you have to go after the safe company or something.  Just a thought when looking for a safe.  I was also told for fire rating ou have to judge how long it would take the fire department to get their.  The longer it takes the higher the fire rating.  Hope it helps.

[Nomad]

I have never heard of such a thing . Most safe companies BTW will replace your safe for free (sentry does) if it goes through a fire and insurance co's sometimes give discounts for safes if they meet set standards .

As far as FD reponse times.  FD.s have an ISO rating which looks at many things, such as times o/s but the equipment that gets on scene ( truck , engines etc.) the amount of ladders, hose and gallons per minute the pump can flow, how many men, hydrants or drafting out of a farm pond ? To name just a few.

ISO ratings then effect your insurance rates

[Cappy]

I just got a decent Cannon safe on craigslist, it cost me a fraction of what a new one cost and its just what I needed. You have to watch the postings very carefully and move fast because these go quickly but not a bad way to get one. Good luck!!

[Geno C]

let me know what you find john, im in the same boat. heated garage and all... i think i may want to put one in the house tho. im trying to find some for a good price and maybe even a company that sells and delivers for a good price.

[burmjohn]

Geno - Patriot is having a 50% off sale on anything in stock with free in home delivery.

https://patriotsafe.com/

I'm working up a quote now with them and see if its makes sense.  I'd like a 10 gun safe w/1hr fire rating.

[fasteddie]

It is almost impossible to fit 10 guns ino a 10 gun safe especially if any of them are scoped . Without any scopes , it's still a tight fit . http://www.downsouthhuntingforums.com/images/smiles/2cents.gif[/img]