New AR areas in 2012

[Doewhacker]

So you are not a true hunter if something pisses you off enough to make you stop handing over your hard earned money for something you don't agree with?

hmmm I guess you fellas figured out every thing, I didn't know you conducted surveys and can read minds.

[SteveNY]

Please post what you found in your research. Most of the famous areas for big bucks in this nation do not have AR's. This is all the proof I need that bucks can get big without AR's. Anything else will most likely be biased. State game departments responsibilities are to control deer populations, and how many points a buck happens to have on it's head when it gets shot is of absolutely NO importance. It's only important to those who want antlers to show off. The DEC has said time and time again that AR's have NO biological benefit. They call AR's a "social" issue, and maybe someone could tell me what that has to do with deer biology?

Well most of the out of state research I have done happened in 2008 when the DEC started the program in one of the areas I hunt (3H). I did not compile all my studies nor save the sources. The information and studies are relatively easy to find on the internet.

However, I would like to show you one article that comes to mind written by New York state resident and recently retired DEC deer biologist Dick Henry. Just to show that not all deer biologist agree, just like almost any other profession.

The article can be found here: http://www.hvqdma.com/biological-needs-for-antler-restriction/

[Skillet]

Whatever. This issue will never be agreed upon. Dad, if I was mistaken about your post, then I apologize. I agree with you on the "Earn a Buck" program, keeping deer herds in check is the only reason that our sport is still allowed to exist. Mandatory AR has nothing to do with this, and strays from the reasons we SHOULD be hunting in the first place. It's about NYS wanting to gain more of a rep as a "Big Buck State" and bringing in more money, period. Like it or not, trophy hunting gives the antis legitimate ammo against us. ADK, I'm just as passionate as you are. You should care if people start to drop out of the sport, if you don't, you are really short sighted. If I can't play my way, I'm taking my ball and going home

[13BVET]

Whatever. This issue will never be agreed upon. Dad, if I was mistaken about your post, then I apologize. I agree with you on the "Earn a Buck" program, keeping deer herds in check is the only reason that our sport is still allowed to exist. Mandatory AR has nothing to do with this, and strays from the reasons we SHOULD be hunting in the first place. It's about NYS wanting to gain more of a rep as a "Big Buck State" and bringing in more money, period. Like it or not, trophy hunting gives the antis legitimate ammo against us. ADK, I'm just as passionate as you are. You should care if people start to drop out of the sport, if you don't, you are really short sighted. If I can't play my way, I'm taking my ball and going home

I agree. Once the point of deer population control is taken off the board, there is really no way to justify hunting as a means to control deer numbers. The anti's would jump on this in a heartbeat. In fact, in a way, they already have. There have been articles by those losers PETA, who pretty much point to issues like this, claiming state wildlife agencies are doing things like this to grow the deer herd. Normally, I couldn't care less what they have to say. However, this could strike a chord with the general public, who has been led to believe that hunters are there to control the deer. This could bite us in the ass down the road, by losing general public support.

[NFA-ADK]

Skillet I don't care if someone who is already a hunter decieded he was done hunting. It is all personal preferance. Will a few hunters that stop hunting because of AR affect the state, I doubt it. I am more concerned about new hunters than existing hunters who might quite. We are a dieing bread and every year we loose more hunters to gaming and other internet related stuff for kids. When I 1st hunted the ADK you HAD to make reservations for opening day, now you can just show up and get a room... Every year the hunting population is getting smaller and the citiots get larger. I will be taking 2 kids hunting this year to help that out but to be concerned about a few people who will quite hunting because of AR, no im not concerned about them, they would have found another excuse to quite anyway...

[SteveNY]

Here is another article for those interested: http://www.hvqdma.co...ns-really-work/

Whatever. This issue will never be agreed upon. Dad, if I was mistaken about your post, then I apologize. I agree with you on the "Earn a Buck" program, keeping deer herds in check is the only reason that our sport is still allowed to exist. Mandatory AR has nothing to do with this, and strays from the reasons we SHOULD be hunting in the first place. It's about NYS wanting to gain more of a rep as a "Big Buck State" and bringing in more money, period. Like it or not, trophy hunting gives the antis legitimate ammo against us. ADK, I'm just as passionate as you are. You should care if people start to drop out of the sport, if you don't, you are really short sighted. If I can't play my way, I'm taking my ball and going home

I agree. Once the point of deer population control is taken off the board, there is really no way to justify hunting as a means to control deer numbers. The anti's would jump on this in a heartbeat. In fact, in a way, they already have. There have been articles by those losers PETA, who pretty much point to issues like this, claiming state wildlife agencies are doing things like this to grow the deer herd. Normally, I couldn't care less what they have to say. However, this could strike a chord with the general public, who has been led to believe that hunters are there to control the deer. This could bite us in the ass down the road, by losing general public support.

Unless they introduce cougars and wolves back into NYS, hunters will always be needed to control deer population. This point can not be argued. Anyhow, you don't tell anti's that there is a AR program so we can shoot bigger bucks, you tell them it is because the adult buck to adult doe ratio is out of whack (which it is), and less deer will be shot for the first 3-6 years that the program is in effect. Once you tell an anti that less deer will be shot, even for a short amount of time, I think they will be all for it.

Edited December 13, 2011 by SteveNY

[13BVET]

Here is another article for those interested: http://www.hvqdma.co...ns-really-work/

Unless they introduce cougars and wolves back into NYS, hunters will always be needed to control deer population. This point can not be argued. Anyhow, you don't tell anti's that there is a AR program so we can shoot bigger bucks, you tell them it is because the adult buck to adult doe ratio is out of whack, and less deer will be shot for the first 3-6 years that the program is in effect. Once you tell an anti that less deer will be shot, I think they will be all for it.

I'm not referring to anti's. I'm actually referring to the general public. I have a lot of friends, who don't hunt, but have nothing against it, as long as it's based on population control. Once trophy hunting comes into the picture, however, their attitude tends to change, for some reason.

[SteveNY]

I'm not referring to anti's. I'm actually referring to the general public. I have a lot of friends, who don't hunt, but have nothing against it, as long as it's based on population control. Once trophy hunting comes into the picture, however, their attitude tends to change, for some reason.

I understand that totally. It is important to reinforce the fact that the program is to make the deer heard healthier, improve the adult male to adult female ratio, help deer survive the harsh winter and even help fawns avoid predation in the spring. The fact that there will be more mature buck when we hunt is just a side effect. Edited December 13, 2011 by SteveNY

[steve863]

Once you tell an anti that less deer will be shot, even for a short amount of time, I think they will be all for it.

Man, I really think you got that WRONG! Also posting articles from a QDM website will do mighty little to change the minds of those of us who don't buy into this AR baloney. I think 13BVET has it right. Once the general public is made to think that the DEC is managing the herd for trophy hunting, then you will have more of them turn completely against hunting and join the rabid anti side.

[SteveNY]

Man, I really think you got that WRONG! Also posting articles from a QDM website will do mighty little to change the minds of those of us who don't buy into this AR baloney. I think 13BVET has it right. Once the general public is made to think that the DEC is managing the herd for trophy hunting, then you will have more of them turn completely against hunting and join the rabid anti side.

Its common sense, tell an anti hunter that less deer will be shot, what do you think they are gonna say?

Who cares what websites the article posted on, it is still written by a well respected retired DEC deer biologist! Did you even read the article in its entirety? Probably not, because you didn't mention ANYTHING about it except the website that it is posted on. I am pretty sure if you actually read it you would have some things to say about it.

The general public should be informed that the program is implemented to protect young bucks, and like I said in an earlier post "It is important to reinforce the fact that the program is to make the deer heard healthier, improve the adult male to adult female ratio, help deer survive the harsh winter and even help fawns avoid predation in the spring. The fact that there will be more mature buck when we hunt is just a side effect."

I don't care much about the general public's opinion about AR programs, their opinions about it will never stop deer hunting. I will give them the proverbial pacifier if I need to, in person, as I usually do, to explain why deer must be hunted. Beyond that, I do not really value their opinions on hunting.

I have been hunting deer for 16 years. In the areas that I hunt mature deer are rare, so rare in fact that in 16 years, I have only ever seen one mature buck while hunting, EVER! Even on my trail cameras that I have been using for over 3 years now (and they stay in the woods 24/7, unlike me) I have NOT A SINGLE PICTURE of a mature buck. I have THOUSANDS of pictures of does, and bear, and turkey and fox, but not ONE SINGLE MATURE BUCK! Only once every few years do I even see or hear of a mature buck taken in my area. I am now in the part of 3A that has a AR, and I am all for it. I would say at least 90% of the buck that are taken in my area are yearlings. It is not good for the herd. And if you can't see why that is, read the article I posted, you will see why.

I don't think AR programs are a great idea for every WMU in the state, maybe you live in one of those areas, and hopefully the DEC will recognize that.

[Dad 6424]

I was not talking about the real people and hunters that do the right thing I was saying the outlaws will still do what they do and big boys are big bucks sorry if I got any one fired up just stating some facts and an opinion AR's are going to be good for some herds and not so good for the rest my self have not pulled the trigger this year seen only one worth the shot and he did not stick around for me to get it off but starting tonights hunt there will be a doe or two going down frezer meat good luck to all

[Doc]

Well this topic is getting well-adrift from where it started, but since the nature of the thread seems to be evolving, I'll add my two cents on these latest responses.

My gut feel is that the general non-hunting public would never recognize or understand a term like AR even if they ghappened to hear it. The fact is that most could care less about hunting or the reasons why we are doing it or any of the other finer points of how and why we manage deer herds. I think they simply feel that hunting is an old time tradition among some parts of society and they don't happen to understand or relate to any of it, but if there are some that do it ....... Ho-Hum ...... so what. I think what they do understand is auto-deer collisions or hundreds of dollars worth of destroyed landscape and that is what keeps a majority of them tolerating hunters. AR isn't even on their radar screen in the bigger scheme of things in their busy lives.

Now if you want to consider those who really do hold our destiny in their hands, you have to look to the legislators. They are the ones that shape public opinion and get their constituents all whipped up about things. And what drives them? ........ votes. They have learned that there are certain groups of people that can only mean trouble when you cross them. Hunters are one of those groups. Hunting voters are counted by the number of hunting licenses sold. That all translates to hunter influence. A sliding number of hunter licenses means a sliding influence with the movers and shakers of politics when it come to the welfare of hunting. That is why we need to be concerned with hunter numbers. Some of these numbers may only represent guys that go out for a couple of hours on opening day, but politicians can't gage a level of dedication. They only know that they represent a political block. We may scornfully call these hunters "part-time hunters" and look down our noses at them and wonder who the heck cares about them and who cares if they drop out. Well, those politicians care about them and therefore we had better start caring about them. Even we don't have any clear idea of what percentage of all those hunting licenses comprise non-dedicated casual hunters. it could be a lot larger than any of us realizes. While we are cheerfully chopping out this group and that category of hunters by pissing them off with all kinds of new restrictions, the bottom line in terms of hunter numbers is continuing to shrink and is indicating to legislators that maybe this hunting block of voters is not really something to be concerned about. That's not good and I might suggest that perhaps we not be so eager to start eating our own.

[steve863]

Its common sense, tell an anti hunter that less deer will be shot, what do you think they are gonna say?

Who cares what websites the article posted on, it is still written by a well respected retired DEC deer biologist! Did you even read the article in its entirety? Probably not, because you didn't mention ANYTHING about it except the website that it is posted on. I am pretty sure if you actually read it you would have some things to say about it.

The general public should be informed that the program is implemented to protect young bucks, and like I said in an earlier post "It is important to reinforce the fact that the program is to make the deer heard healthier, improve the adult male to adult female ratio, help deer survive the harsh winter and even help fawns avoid predation in the spring. The fact that there will be more mature buck when we hunt is just a side effect."

I don't care much about the general public's opinion about AR programs, their opinions about it will never stop deer hunting. I will give them the proverbial pacifier if I need to, in person, as I usually do, to explain why deer must be hunted. Beyond that, I do not really value their opinions on hunting.

I have been hunting deer for 16 years. In the areas that I hunt mature deer are rare, so rare in fact that in 16 years, I have only ever seen one mature buck while hunting, EVER! Even on my trail cameras that I have been using for over 3 years now (and they stay in the woods 24/7, unlike me) I have NOT A SINGLE PICTURE of a mature buck. I have THOUSANDS of pictures of does, and bear, and turkey and fox, but not ONE SINGLE MATURE BUCK! Only once every few years do I even see or hear of a mature buck taken in my area. I am now in the part of 3A that has a AR, and I am all for it. I would say at least 90% of the buck that are taken in my area are yearlings. It is not good for the herd. And if you can't see why that is, read the article I posted, you will see why.

I don't think AR programs are a great idea for every WMU in the state, maybe you live in one of those areas, and hopefully the DEC will recognize that.

I will let you believe whatever you want. I have argued my position on this stuff many a time before. Your post is so typical of all others who think AR's is going to bring them opportunities at huge bucks. Good luck to you then. I hope to see the pictures of you posing next to some of these huge deer, just like I am of the others here who think AR's are great. I have a hunch I may have another long wait, though. LOL

[13BVET]

Its common sense, tell an anti hunter that less deer will be shot, what do you think they are gonna say?

Who cares what websites the article posted on, it is still written by a well respected retired DEC deer biologist! Did you even read the article in its entirety? Probably not, because you didn't mention ANYTHING about it except the website that it is posted on. I am pretty sure if you actually read it you would have some things to say about it.

The general public should be informed that the program is implemented to protect young bucks, and like I said in an earlier post "It is important to reinforce the fact that the program is to make the deer heard healthier, improve the adult male to adult female ratio, help deer survive the harsh winter and even help fawns avoid predation in the spring. The fact that there will be more mature buck when we hunt is just a side effect."

I don't care much about the general public's opinion about AR programs, their opinions about it will never stop deer hunting. I will give them the proverbial pacifier if I need to, in person, as I usually do, to explain why deer must be hunted. Beyond that, I do not really value their opinions on hunting.

I have been hunting deer for 16 years. In the areas that I hunt mature deer are rare, so rare in fact that in 16 years, I have only ever seen one mature buck while hunting, EVER! Even on my trail cameras that I have been using for over 3 years now (and they stay in the woods 24/7, unlike me) I have NOT A SINGLE PICTURE of a mature buck. I have THOUSANDS of pictures of does, and bear, and turkey and fox, but not ONE SINGLE MATURE BUCK! Only once every few years do I even see or hear of a mature buck taken in my area. I am now in the part of 3A that has a AR, and I am all for it. I would say at least 90% of the buck that are taken in my area are yearlings. It is not good for the herd. And if you can't see why that is, read the article I posted, you will see why.

I don't think AR programs are a great idea for every WMU in the state, maybe you live in one of those areas, and hopefully the DEC will recognize that.

No disrespect, SteveNY, but I honestly believe we should worry about the general publics viewpoints. The NJ bear hunt, is a prime example of what can happen when the public is fed crap from the animal rightists. If I recall, it stopped the hunt dead in it's tracks.

Another prime example would be Camp Smith, outside of Peekskill. They wanted to open up deer hunting, because they are overrun with them. The animal rightists fed bs to the locals, and, because of such a massive amount of negative public feedback, it was shot down. This was actually a massive let down to hunters, because Camp Smith would be a hunters paradise. We should be much more vigil when it comes to the general public.

Edited December 13, 2011 by 13BVET

[SteveNY]

I will let you believe whatever you want. I have argued my position on this stuff many a time before. Your post is so typical of all others who think AR's is going to bring them opportunities at huge bucks. Good luck to you then. I hope to see the pictures of you posing next to some of these huge deer, just like I am of the others here who think AR's are great. I have a hunch I may have another long wait, though. LOL

Steve, where I hunt I don't want the AR just because I want huge buck, its because I want to see buck period! Doe to buck ratio around here is totally out of whack. I see 15 doe to 1 buck, and I am being generous with that number. In 16 years the biggest buck I have shot is a 6-pointer that scores 58". The rest were ALL spikes. I can't see how AR will NOT help my area, it just isn't logical to think that it won't. Mature buck in my area are so rare, we hunters around here have nearly made them extinct. No one to blame but ourselves, but thats just how its been for many years.

As a hunter, I am not happy at all with the quality of hunting in my WMU, and any hunter I talk to agrees with that, even the ones that don't agree with the AR. They are just stubborn and complain that they cant shoot their spikes and 4 pointers any more, but still complain there aren't bigger buck around. THAT IS BECAUSE WE ARE KILLING THEM ALL!!!!!

If it didn't work, why is the DEC moving past the pilot areas and expanding it more and more? After all it is what these people do for a living. http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/arsummary11.pdf

Like I said before, maybe the herd in your area has a good buck to doe ratio and doesn't need a mandatory AR program, but round here, we definitely do.

[hunterjohn]

took this long but i would have to say it is working well lots of mature bucks got shot this year all 8 10 and 12 nice to see 3 and 4 year old bucks around...

[Dave]

Guys we are getting way off the topic, just wanted to know new AR DMU for next year. Got the answer thanks.

Haven't we gone down this road before, I think we beat this one to death already.

[Doc]

Guys we are getting way off the topic, just wanted to know new AR DMU for next year. Got the answer thanks.

Haven't we gone down this road before, I think we beat this one to death already.

I have yet to see any thread that stays on topic forever. These things do evolve and wander. That's kind of natural. Sometimes we have to bring it back on track (if there is more to discuss). If the original topic has been satisfied, then there probably is no problem with it moving in new directions as long as there is still interest.

[SteveNY]

No disrespect, SteveNY, but I honestly believe we should worry about the general publics viewpoints. The NJ bear hunt, is a prime example of what can happen when the public is fed crap from the animal rightists. If I recall, it stopped the hunt dead in it's tracks.

Another prime example would be Camp Smith, outside of Peekskill. They wanted to open up deer hunting, because they are overrun with them. The animal rightists fed bs to the locals, and, because of such a massive amount of negative public feedback, it was shot down. This was actually a massive let down to hunters, because Camp Smith would be a hunters paradise. We should be much more vigil when it comes to the general public.

I don't recall the NJ bear hunt ever being stopped. As a matter of fact it was a huge success. Some anti's tried to have the hunt stopped but failed. "Firstly, to reach the conclusion of the animal activist we would need to disagree with the findings of both a Superior Court and Appellate Court, each ruling that the State of New Jersey had put together a viable, comprehensive bear management plan. The two courts agreed that the hunt should proceed."

As for the Camp Smith story, I had not personally heard of that one, but I have heard other similar stories, but there will always be isolated cases like this. Maybe a small community will not allow hunting in small pockets, but on a State or Federal level, hunting will never be outlawed. Politicians and Judges will always look to the wildlife management agencies and their biologists. And no matter what the biologist thinks about hunting, it is necessary, and the science doesn't lie.

[Skillet]

Skillet I don't care if someone who is already a hunter decieded he was done hunting. It is all personal preferance. Will a few hunters that stop hunting because of AR affect the state, I doubt it. I am more concerned about new hunters than existing hunters who might quite. We are a dieing bread and every year we loose more hunters to gaming and other internet related stuff for kids. When I 1st hunted the ADK you HAD to make reservations for opening day, now you can just show up and get a room... Every year the hunting population is getting smaller and the citiots get larger. I will be taking 2 kids hunting this year to help that out but to be concerned about a few people who will quite hunting because of AR, no im not concerned about them, they would have found another excuse to quite anyway...

I am fully aware that we are a dying breed. Please explain to me how AR's will have a positive impact on recruiting new hunters. Yet another restriction for them to deal with, not to mention teaching them to have the wrong priorities. Many new hunters (young and old) get discouraged with lack of success and give up easily, why put another barrier in the way of their success? When ANY hunter quits, it decreases the probability of those under their influence taking up our sport. So the few hunters who quit don't matter to you? What about their children? Their grandchildren? Their friends? It adds up. I think maybe you like having the woods all to yourself. I trust the DEC as far as I can throw them. Blah blah blah, It all adds up to $$$$ for them.

[steve863]

I think maybe you like having the woods all to yourself.

Actually, I think you may be on to something with this one!

[GreeneHunter]

No disrespect, SteveNY, but I honestly believe we should worry about the general publics viewpoints. The NJ bear hunt, is a prime example of what can happen when the public is fed crap from the animal rightists. If I recall, it stopped the hunt dead in it's tracks.

Another prime example would be Camp Smith, outside of Peekskill. They wanted to open up deer hunting, because they are overrun with them. The animal rightists fed bs to the locals, and, because of such a massive amount of negative public feedback, it was shot down. This was actually a massive let down to hunters, because Camp Smith would be a hunters paradise. We should be much more vigil when it comes to the general public.

Your right about Camp Smith ... I was recently stationed there for 18 months and the place is overrun , the only people whom can hunt there are Military members ... naturally bow only , currently only 2 individuals hunt there and its their little hunting paradise !

[Elmo]

I can't remember the region or state but their process was that you receive an either sex tag and if your bought in a doe, you get another either sex tag but if you bought in a buck, then they don't get another tag and their season is done.

[13BVET]

I don't recall the NJ bear hunt ever being stopped. As a matter of fact it was a huge success. Some anti's tried to have the hunt stopped but failed. "Firstly, to reach the conclusion of the animal activist we would need to disagree with the findings of both a Superior Court and Appellate Court, each ruling that the State of New Jersey had put together a viable, comprehensive bear management plan. The two courts agreed that the hunt should proceed."

As for the Camp Smith story, I had not personally heard of that one, but I have heard other similar stories, but there will always be isolated cases like this. Maybe a small community will not allow hunting in small pockets, but on a State or Federal level, hunting will never be outlawed. Politicians and Judges will always look to the wildlife management agencies and their biologists. And no matter what the biologist thinks about hunting, it is necessary, and the science doesn't lie.

Actually, I was partially right on the bear hunt. A petition stopped it in 2007. To be honest, I wasn't sure what year it was. Having said that, you are correct that the courts denied the petition in later seasons.

[Skillet]

I can't remember the region or state but their process was that you receive an either sex tag and if your bought in a doe, you get another either sex tag but if you bought in a buck, then they don't get another tag and their season is done.

It works that way in 8C, the archery only unit around Rochester. I used to hunt there.