THE GREAT HEALTH CARE DEBATE..

[Suilleabhain]

When I read these discussions, I go out to Exit 70 on the LIE and confer with the Whistlepig that lives on the north side. I come away with more knowledge and less of a headache.

What he told me is you are talking to the wind and there's no cure for stupid when it comes to people letting the government run any part of ones daily lives..

[hunter]

With all respect,sits in trees, I don't think you realize the law only applies to those who can afford to buy insurance. Some bureaucrat like Sebelius or appointed panel neither of which are elected or can be voted out decide what level that is. So now they have the IRS going after us while protecting the lazy, the criminal and the illegals all of whom must recieve the same level of treatment as the rest of us. When there isn't enough care to go around panels will decide who gets the care. translation death panels. Meaning you or your loved one could pay into the system your whole life but a young criminal or illegal is given care you are refused because you're old or very sick.

[sits in trees]

With all respect,sits in trees, I don't think you realize the law only applies to those who can afford to buy insurance. Some bureaucrat like Sebelius or appointed panel neither of which are elected or can be voted out decide what level that is. So now they have the IRS going after us while protecting the lazy, the criminal and the illegals all of whom must recieve the same level of treatment as the rest of us. When there isn't enough care to go around panels will decide who gets the care. translation death panels. Meaning you or your loved one could pay into the system your whole life but a young criminal or illegal is given care you are refused because you're old or very sick.

Im all for criminals and Illigals just not receiving any form of free health care, even though we all know that will never happen here. But we have a huge % of our public who simply choose not to get insurance. Example a 30 year old says well my employer doesnt offer it or the 30 year old owns a startup business and doesnt want to pay 13 thousand a year for health insurance because he says "well i dont own a house and im healthy so what can they take from me??" and i will just take my chances. Not only that we have millions of people getting these half assed super high deductable policies(10 to 20k out of pocket) then they get sick and claim bankruptcy.

The leading reason for Bankruptcy in America is sickness/medical expenses by people who dont have insurance and are not eligible for any free medicaid. So its folks like me who have always done the right thing and made sure me and my family have quality ins that are forced to fill in the gap for people who dont pay. That % of people who dont pay are increasing every year because the working poor population who are not eligible for medicaid in America is growing.

[Phillygunns]

This was a deal the democrats made with the insurance companies. They benefit greatly and there is no responsibility apon the federal government. If I don not get insurance will that make me a criminal? When I go to jail wont I get free medical care?

[wdswtr]

DUDE apparently you dont understand the arguement or anything that Bill said in that video! GO back and listen to the segment starting at 3:14

Edited April 14, 2012 by wdswtr

[nyantler]

I would like to have the freedom of choice to not have to pay for people who dont want to get health insurance with the ever increasing cost of my own health inurance. So that is why i think the mandate to force slackers who dont wanna pay for their health care is GOOD!

I agree.. that would be great in theory.. but the way they want to work government healthcare still gives the slackers a free ride and forces ALL businesses to offer health care to their employees or suffer a penalty.. the penalty is less than the businesses cost so they will opt to pay the fine... requiring all the employees to purchase government run healthcare... where premiums are collected by the government and they decide the extent of your healthcare coverage... they will decide what they think you need for you and deny many procedures based on their opinion of need. I certainly do not want the US government having anything to do with my healthcare choices while they collect billions of dollars to be wasted on other unnecessary spending... forcing country wide competition among health care providers is the answer to lower cost insurance... competition will also create better plans to entice new customers... there are thousands of health insurance companies in the US and here in NY there are about 5 companies for us to choose from... open up the market, create competition and you'll see health insurance cost go down.. institute tort reform and doctors won't have to continue to cover their ass against all kinds of frivoous law suits.

[sits in trees]

Did any of you ever think maybe we as Americans just dont deserve good health care. We say we dont want Gov touching our healthcare and yet we are the ones who elected the very schmucks into office. The Republican party tells us that gov should not run health care, But they are the Goverment!!! So they are basically telling you, yea elect meeee but dont trust or expect me to do a damn thing???

The more crap i here from politically baised media and talk show hosts and the more i see Americans taking sides behind these criminal politicians the more i think yea we get what we deserve, and this is it, a Piss Poo Educational system, Piss POO health ins and healthcare. We are without a doubt turning into a third world nation.

[Nicksteroni]

I'm sure a bunch will disagree, but too bad. This is the truth, like it or not. Tobacco related health issues, alcohol abuse related health problems and obesity health related problems are costing the american people untold hundreds of billions of dollars each year. How ? By much higher insurance costs for everyone. Why in the wide, wide, world of sports should I have to pay for someone to abuse, at will, their bodies ? I say if you want to do that to your body, you foot the bill. No hospital should treat these individuals unless they reach deep in their pockets. They have the money for the booze, smokes and chips. As a side note, It's legal to buy and smoke tobacco. This, we and anyone with a brain knows, kills. It also generates billions in tax revenue. It's illegal to buy raw milk, because there is such concern for our health. Duhhhhh ???????? Oh, and no tax revenue here.

[nyantler]

Did any of you ever think maybe we as Americans just dont deserve good health care. We say we dont want Gov touching our healthcare and yet we are the ones who elected the very schmucks into office. The Republican party tells us that gov should not run health care, But they are the Goverment!!! So they are basically telling you, yea elect meeee but dont trust or expect me to do a damn thing???

The more crap i here from politically baised media and talk show hosts and the more i see Americans taking sides behind these criminal politicians the more i think yea we get what we deserve, and this is it, a Piss Poo Educational system, Piss POO health ins and healthcare. We are without a doubt turning into a third world nation.

I couldn't agree more .. yet many of the goofballs in office I never voted for and will never have the chance to vote them out... again a case of too many people falling for the BS that these politicians spout... I'm beginning to think there is no fix for the fix we're in. Most Americans just aren't smart enough to see what's going on.

[nyantler]

I'm sure a bunch will disagree, but too bad. This is the truth, like it or not. Tobacco related health issues, alcohol abuse related health problems and obesity health related problems are costing the american people untold hundreds of billions of dollars each year. How ? By much higher insurance costs for everyone. Why in the wide, wide, world of sports should I have to pay for someone to abuse, at will, their bodies ? I say if you want to do that to your body, you foot the bill. No hospital should treat these individuals unless they reach deep in their pockets. They have the money for the booze, smokes and chips. As a side note, It's legal to buy and smoke tobacco. This, we and anyone with a brain knows, kills. It also generates billions in tax revenue. It's illegal to buy raw milk, because there is such concern for our health. Duhhhhh ???????? Oh, and no tax revenue here.

Tobacco, alchohol, and fat people have been around since the beginning of health care... higher insurance rates are a product of greed by the insurance companies, nothing more, nothing less.

[sits in trees]

I couldn't agree more .. yet many of the goofballs in office I never voted for and will never have the chance to vote them out... again a case of too many people falling for the BS that these politicians spout... I'm beginning to think there is no fix for the fix we're in. Most Americans just aren't smart enough to see what's going on.

Sorry to say but it really looks like we are Doomed. no lol on that one.

[ELMER J. FUDD]

Sits, you make a good point about others contributing to help keep costs down. Personally I don't think it will end up working that way with all these slobs running it.

[Doc]

I'm sure a bunch will disagree, but too bad. This is the truth, like it or not. Tobacco related health issues, alcohol abuse related health problems and obesity health related problems are costing the american people untold hundreds of billions of dollars each year. How ? By much higher insurance costs for everyone.

The beauty of the products that you mentioned is that they cause people to get sick and die early which takes them off the health care roles that all the health nuts populate for decade after decade. Let's face it those people who live to a ripe old age really cost the system ..... big-time. The rest croak early and cost nothing more than a few weeks of intensive care and then the funeral. We are all going to die sometime. Most of us, healthy or not, will eventually spend those last few final weeks in intensive care. It's just a question of how many will hang around and hang around, long enough to become a burden on the healthcare system. The ones who have figured out how to extend their lives through healthy lifestyles will become the residents of expensive nursing homes with tubes running in and out of their bodies for years on end. Those that live the reckless unhealthy lives will be gone before they reach that state. Which group of people really cost us the most?

By the way, I really wouldn't be all that surprised if it isn't the health obsessed people who use up the majority of insurance money with a regular regimen of doctors visits and obtaining a pill or shot for just about whatever ailment we can imagine or undergoing every arbitrary medical procedure that their insurance will pay for. Most of the smokers and drinkers and twinkie-eaters that I have ever known, stay away from doctors and medication. For most of their short lives, they don't cost the health care system anything.

[nyantler]

The beauty of the products that you mentioned is that they cause people to get sick and die early which takes them off the health care roles that all the health nuts populate for decade after decade. Let's face it those people who live to a ripe old age really cost the system ..... big-time. The rest croak early and cost nothing more than a few weeks of intensive care and then the funeral. We are all going to die sometime. Most of us, healthy or not, will eventually spend those last few final weeks in intensive care. It's just a question of how many will hang around and hang around, long enough to become a burden on the healthcare system. The ones who have figured out how to extend their lives through healthy lifestyles will become the residents of expensive nursing homes with tubes running in and out of their bodies for years on end. Those that live the reckless unhealthy lives will be gone before they reach that state. Which group of people really cost us the most?

By the way, I really wouldn't be all that surprised if it isn't the health obsessed people who use up the majority of insurance money with a regular regimen of doctors visits and obtaining a pill or shot for just about whatever ailment we can imagine or undergoing every arbitrary medical procedure that their insurance will pay for. Most of the smokers and drinkers and twinkie-eaters that I have ever known, stay away from doctors and medication. For most of their short lives, they don't cost the health care system anything.

Wow I really never thought of things that way.. I definitely will now! Great post Doc! One really can learn something here..LOL

[Nicksteroni]

Doc, Just for my clarity, you're saying that if there wasn't any emphysema, diabetes or cirrhosis of the liver,.... health insurance costs would be the same because of the "healthy people " ????? O.K. ?????. Thanks for the insight. Oh,... and by the way, these diseases, which predominantly are caused by smoking, obesity and alcohol abuse, are LONG TERM illnesses, not the quick early death you suggest. But thanks for your good effort.

[virgil]

Doc's post is interesting, but not really accurate. The growing trend in healthcare is 'preventative care'. The reason for this trend is because the truth is the exact opposite of what Doc implies. For the most part, people who don't take care of themselves do not suddenly drop dead without costing the system. In fact, smokers, diabetics, the obese- rack up massive healthcare expenses. Insurance plans and many employers are encouraging preventative medicine and 'employee health' programs- tobacco cessation, weight loss programs, exercise programs, etc.- specifically to foster a healthier and more productive workforce. They're doing this because it has proven to lower insurance premiums because healthier people cost the system less. This is not my opinion or theory. It is fact and you can easily find plenty of recent articles that explain it further.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I would like to have the freedom of choice to not have to pay for people who dont want to get health insurance with the ever increasing cost of my own health inurance. So that is why i think the mandate to force slackers who dont wanna pay for their health care is GOOD!

So you are cutting into someones right to choose not to buy insurance so that you feel better about your own stuff? Let me ask you this. Have you ever tried to not pay a medical bill that your insurance didnt cover? If you did, how did that work out for you? Ill tell you what happens, you end up with a judgement against you, and they garnish your wages. Bottom line, you pay one way or the other. Bankruptcy isnt as easy to claim as you are making it out to be. Most of your high insurance costs have to do with handing out medical care to illegals and supporting the lawsuit industry we have in this country. Want to fix alot of problems with this country/economy? Start by getting tough on immigration and put an end to frivolous lawsuits by creating a law that says whomever looses the case, pays the other party's legal expenses in full. Get rid of the bankruptcy loopholes, etc that allow people to have an easy way out. In other words, create an environment where people need to take responsibility for themselves and their actions.

[virgil]

Now we're getting somewhere.

[wooffer]

There is nothing to debate here. The government has no right to force me or anyone else to buy something.

If so may people are concerned about the un-insured let them do what americans do best, band together and form a non-profit health insurance company with private funds.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Now we're getting somewhere.

Holy moley do we agree on something?

[virgil]

I'm not that surprised. I think that a lot of you guys assume that anyone who has any 'liberal' positions whatsoever must fit your image of 'a liberal'. I've said it before on other threads. I have what could be described as liberal views on some subjects and conservative views on others- it depends on the subject. I'm always leary of anyone who has party-line positions on every subject.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Well, if you talked to me on certain subjects, youd probably realize Im not exactly a complete conservative, though thats the side of the fence most of my opinions lie on.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I am liberal in my eating habits...does that count? LOL

[WNYBuckHunter]

LMAO

[sits in trees]

So you are cutting into someones right to choose not to buy insurance so that you feel better about your own stuff? Let me ask you this. Have you ever tried to not pay a medical bill that your insurance didnt cover? If you did, how did that work out for you? Ill tell you what happens, you end up with a judgement against you, and they garnish your wages. Bottom line, you pay one way or the other. Bankruptcy isnt as easy to claim as you are making it out to be. Most of your high insurance costs have to do with handing out medical care to illegals and supporting the lawsuit industry we have in this country. Want to fix alot of problems with this country/economy? Start by getting tough on immigration and put an end to frivolous lawsuits by creating a law that says whomever looses the case, pays the other party's legal expenses in full. Get rid of the bankruptcy loopholes, etc that allow people to have an easy way out. In other words, create an environment where people need to take responsibility for themselves and their actions.

Theres only a certain percentage the courts can garner from ones salary. How much do you think a hospital will get back on a 250 or 800 thousand dollar hospital/surgery etc bill from a guy who makes 60k a year with no insurance? And i think you missed one part of my post, Medical Bills are the leading reason people file for and do go into bankruptcy for in America, this is a fact plain and simple.

And yes i think cutting into someones right to not buy health insurance is a spectacular idea because it makes that someone responsible for their own health care, NOT ME!

Also i will come out and say this because none of you conservo's can be honest enough to say it, YEA i think illegals should be left to die in the street when they get sick OK, man women and even child goes to a hospital with a stroke, heart attack, chopped off arm and they have no insurance just turn their arse around and send them a packin....thats what your saying too right, lets get this perfectly clear instead of doing the dance around the bush routine.

what im getting at is you cant say stop providing free health care to illigals without saying, let em die in the street, its people who say we shouldnt provide free health care to the poor and illegals and then in the next breath say ohh we take care of everyone in America when they get sick so theres no need for any type of structured insurance system no one gets turned away from an emergancy room????