Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[Fairgame]

Some people will say no for different reasons like not wanting a restriction put on their hunting, another is that some are scared they wont be able to shoot a deer for a year or two, another is that its not a good enough management tool.  All reasons are understandable.  This is not the best management tool but its the only one that has taken place in these 4 zones.  IMO given the chance it works from what I see.  A big thing also has been the lottery Dmps also that have given this progrom a boost in seeing more bucks.  More fawns protected that actually live to 1 and a half years old. 

I have always seen deer where I hunt, but before all this started it was mainly does and fawns and the occasional year and a half old buck.. It took a couple of years of not shooting a buck, but now the year and a half old bucks are all over and I do get to see some racks every year for the last three years. I'm not shooting 150inch bucks cause they are not as abundant as the younger deer, but the 100 inch deer now is a common sight.  Great accomplishment.  I thank the DEC for starting this program in my area.  It has made for some exciting hunting!!!

[Fairgame]

Here is something I just found.

http://www.hvqdma.com/do-antler-restrictions-really-work/

[Doc]

I am just hoping that the DEC is using these experimental AR areas as proper laboratories, and are keeping adequate records to establish just what is working and what is not working. It's nice to have anecdotal observations, but nothing will ever replace actual gathered hard data. I am not just talking about data relative to buck numbers and age structure, but also data relative to how hunter participation has reacted. I make no predictions as to what such data might show, but I sure hope that the data is being collected and analysed. There's a lot more involved here than just arbitrarily slapping on some regulations as I have noted in past replies.

Doc

[WNYBuckHunter]

Don't worry I select hunt so I won't stick a arrow in all the deer when I come up in October. I own 70 ac. in Chautauqua county I hunt.

Maybe you want to retract your photos and statements? Did you forget or just neglect to notice the Texas tag on the deer? I call BS on those pics and probably your whole story on here so far. >

[deerinsight]

  I was just showing pictures of the deer so ya’ll can see what can happen with restrictions in place. We took these deer out because we had too many eight pointers on the property. The restrictions in the area of Texas where my kids and I hunt are one buck 13” or better and one buck with one antler being unbranched. Some may ask how you can tell if the rack is 13” or better, well if the ears are fully inside the rack it is at least 13”. But we take it one step further and shoot only 4 ½ year old buck, scrub bucks and does.

I do have property in New York that I own. I strictly Bow hunt this property and my uncle and a couple others bow hunt and gun hunt the property. But I am strict on what is taking. They take does and the occasional what we call scrub bucks. We have done this on the property for four years and have seen great results this past year My Uncle who helps take care of the place Seen 2 tens and 1 twelve pointer we have also seen several nice young bucks 3 1/2 year old or younger. This year I have put in place an 8 point or better rule and still take does and scrub bucks this will help with the age structure.

  This is not to offend anyone but when I talk about deer management and deer hunting I don't speak BS.

    I am Obsessed with managing and hunting deer.

I hope this clears the confusing

[WNYBuckHunter]

  I was just showing pictures of the deer so ya’ll can see what can happen with restrictions in place. We took these deer out because we had too many eight pointers on the property. The restrictions in the area of Texas where my kids and I hunt are one buck 13” or better and one buck with one antler being unbranched. Some may ask how you can tell if the rack is 13” or better, well if the ears are fully inside the rack it is at least 13”. But we take it one step further and shoot only 4 ½ year old buck, scrub bucks and does.

I do have property in New York that I own. I strictly Bow hunt this property and my uncle and a couple others bow hunt and gun hunt the property. But I am strict on what is taking. They take does and the occasional what we call scrub bucks. We have done this on the property for four years and have seen great results this past year My Uncle who helps take care of the place Seen 2 tens and 1 twelve pointer we have also seen several nice young bucks 3 1/2 year old or younger. This year I have put in place an 8 point or better rule and still take does and scrub bucks this will help with the age structure.

  This is not to offend anyone but when I talk about deer management and deer hunting I don't speak BS.

    I am Obsessed with managing and hunting deer.

I hope this clears the confusing

You should have said that to begin with, because your posts alluded that the deer were taken in NY as a result of AR in your area.

[Larry]

I would like to hunt where a 120 to 150 class 8 or 9 point is a cull dosen't sound like QDM to me sounds more like trophy management or you are waching to much Lee & Tiffiny. no thanks

[deerinsight]

The result of 120 and 150 is because of QDM. But I am not saying this will be accomplished in all areas because it has to do with genetics also. We are not trophy hunter per say as you stated we are managing the area with respect to quality deer and that is what we have as a result. We may never see a 170 class in are area of Texas we hunt but the herd is healthy and that is are goal.

    Saying this I don't know yet how the area in New York (Region 9) will be for the big bucks, but I do know that since we started from 4 years ago the deer look a lot heather and have been 10 to 20 lbs heavier and the bucks that have been seen are showing great potential. My boys and I are not as some say trophy hunter we are management hunters as I have stated.

 

One Last thing we need to ask are self what is a trophy? To me a Trophy is a Mature deer. Not necessarily the inches of his head gear. It seams That I have been defending My self about QDM / AR since the get go I am just getting info out to ya’ll about what The AR / QDM program can bring to all of us in the Future. If you just want to shoot any deer well that is your right at this time But the Biologists, Land owners and Hunters  may see that QDM is a great tool to produce Healthy herds

  As for lee and Tiffany go I watch that just because Tiffany is fine.

[Larry]

  You said it when you said what is a trophy. Then what do you say to the person who says any deer is a trophy to them. Is there 4pt. any less a trophy then my 150 class 11pt. no its not any less a trophy and I shouldn’t and no one else should tell them it’s not a trophy; you and I don’t have that right. So should we force them to hunt are way with some kind of AR. There are so few of us left. There are trophies everywhere no matter what standard you use; you just have to work for it.

[deerinsight]

I said a trophy is a mature deer. 5 1/2 or older to be more specific and that is a trophy in my book as it takes a lot of scouting and thought to hunt a deer of this age unless we get lucky. If it is a four pointer (mature) then It should have been or it should be taken out If I seen a eleven pointer and had any doubt that it was less then a mature buck I still would not shoot it that is just the way I look at it. I believe in keeping the good genetics in a herd and taking out the more not so desired deer

[burmjohn]

If I saw a 11 pointer I'd shit my pants.  Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[Doc]

I do think we worry entirely too much about what is or isn't a trophy, but people are free to set their measures of success in hunting anyway they want I suppose. If a whole bunch of antler is your way of figuring out what kind of animal is worthy of hunting, that is certainly ok. I just never saw hunting as something where participants need to keep score. For me the whole thing does not boil down to numbers whether those numbers be some kind of rack score or the deer's age. I can't think of another animal hunted in NYS where we spend so much time worrying about how we stack up against the next hunter. But if we think this is something we must do, then I suppose there's no harm in it as long as we don't start trying to force our measures of success on others.

Doc

[Larry]

Doc what i was tring to tell the guy it shouldn't matter how one measures success or whats a trophy is. to me success is measured on weather or not my 2 boys (16 & 14) have a good time in the woods. there just happy to see deer. 

[burmjohn]

I agree... 99% of my fun is the talk, the good times, the prep work, the scouting, the tree stand building and now the food plotting...

[Doc]

There are so many aspects to hunting that it is a shame to see people get locked into just one of them. There are an awful lot of super experiences that occur during a deer hunt that don't even have a deer involved with them. I really hate to see the whole thing boiled down to a numbers game. Yes, I do get all excited when I see some monster old buck, but I don't have to see some monster old buck to be enthusiastic or to be able to call my day of hunting a success. Maybe I just don't take it all as serious as a lot of people do, but more likely over the years I have simply tailored my satisfactions and expectations to a more realistic level and have developed an enthusiasm of simply watching and experiencing nature along the way.

So how does all this relate to the topic of AR? ......I don't know..... lol.

Doc

[deerinsight]

Larry,

      Regarding your post about your boys. Yes I get more excited when I hunt with My two boys now ages 13 and 15. Yes we do have a lot of fun sitting in the blind wathing studying the deer, talking, enjoying Nature and just being out there.

        regarding to AR or QDM it takes discipline from the hunter and land owner to make the right decisions. For that particular area being managed.

[Larry]

What I have been tiring to convey to you is I don’t believe that an AR should be forced on anyone who doesn’t want it. If they think a 1.5 year old is a good deer who am I to tell them it’s not and that they shouldn’t be shooting that deer.

I do practice QDM but I do not plant food plots I think it’s baiting. I am not going to get in the argument that is not baiting because it’s legal to plant food plots. We do habitat improvement.

[deerinsight]

Larry, 

I agree with you on habitat improvement. We do this also in my property in New York and in Texas. One thing on Food plots I will say is that we have what you can call safe havens we have areas of the properties we do not hunt we also have food plots we do not hunt no matter what we see in them bedding areas and the big food plots an acre or more we just don't hunt them. We do have little honey holes that we keep planted but just because the plot is there it doesn’t mean that you will continuously take a deer from that particular area. specially when the acorns are dropping.

  I have abandoned several food plot during the hunting season. A relocated to the stands located in the acorns and in New York get in the apples, acorns and wallnuts things of that nature.

[Frank]

I say yes. I grew up near P.A. and since they did thiers, the bucks have gotten a lot bigger. I hunt for meat always have. How ever I would love to put a wall hanger on the wall too. This would make the chances better and give us more deer to watch as we hunt.

[sampotter]

I am all for AGE restrictions. Unfortunately it is difficult to train all hunters to judge the age of a buck the same way. Ideally, no bucks under 4yrs would get shot, but width or point restrictions are the best we can do.

Think about this though: I support ARs more as a SAFETY tool than as a means to put a bigger buck on my wall. If you have to stop and count 3 or 4 points on an antler, you are more likely to confirm your target is in fact a deer. I'm sick of reading about idiots that shoot their buddy or relative because they saw "movement" . Worse yet, joggers get shot on dirt roads and housewives get shot hanging up the laundry. These idiots make us look bad and makes it unsafe to be in the woods.

http://www.nytimes.com/1992/11/12/nyregion/a-deer-hunter-kills-a-jogger-dressed-in-blue.html

http://www.all-creatures.org/cash/taah-sh-20060508.html

When we enter the woods with a deadly weapon we have to realize what is in our hands. Unfortunately stupid people are still allowed to buy hunting licenses just as easily as responsible ones. If ARs is what will cause hunters to SLOW down and study their quarry, then how can any sane person oppose it? You can argue the merits of growing more mature bucks vs. "brown its down", but anyone that disagrees with the safety issue doesn't deserve to carry a weapon into the woods...

[SteveB]

NY is one of the safest states as far as hunting incidents are concerned.

I don't see what a turkey incident has to do with AR - especially when the report comes from C.A.S.H. - comittee to abolish sport hunting.

[Frank]

It is a sad thing to deal with when someone gets hurt or killed in the woods. I do think over the years things are getting safer. I say this because I think there are more people taking hunting more seriously. Technology as gotten better. There is more things to try and this gets people involved more. New things like Game cameras, sents,Bows, Guns, tree stands, Hunting blinds, Food plots, camo,Decoys, and calls. With being interested with stuff like this it lets observe the animals closer instead of (its brown its down).

[SteveB]

lets observe the animals closer

That's a great choice - let's leave it to the individual rather then mandate one veiw.

[Larry]

Right now their basically two groups of hunters out there those who want to see bigger buck and those who want to see more deer, there subgroups in each but these are the two primary groups. 

  We were told if we wanted to see bigger bucks we needed to let small bucks walk, manage does (kill more does) this is not the same as antlerless. Letting young bucks get older makes scents they should get bigger. Killing does on the other hand is not so clear. Remember with a birth rate at 1 to 1 bucks to does.  Random chance would say if you kill a 100 does 50 would of have had or would have buck fawns.  The harvesting of doe’s makes scents; to control a population you need to add or subtract females; it doesn’t make scents to kill doe’s  to see more bucks. The buck to doe ratio is not out of balance where hunting takes place. I am not advocating not shooting doe’s; what I am advocating is be careful on how many and where in the age structure you harvest the doe’s from.

[Doewhacker]

.... The buck to doe ratio is not out of balance where hunting takes place. I am not advocating not shooting doe’s; what I am advocating is be careful on how many and where in the age structure you harvest the doe’s from.

In some areas where hunting takes place the ratio is out of whack. It varries from area to area, it is DEC's job to decide numbers of does that should be killed and the hunters job to do it. We se more and bigger bucks where there is no AR and fewer does.