Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[burmjohn]

16.1743

[Doc]

16.1743

See, now I happen to know you are wrong. When I ran up to them with my Stanley retractable tape measure, they measured an average of 17.2398".

I think I would have to learn the art of snap shooting if an antler spread rule were implemented. First I would have to get their attention with a whistle or by hollering so that they would look straight at me and I could see how the spread compared to the distance across their ears, and then get an arrow into them before they took off. :

Doc

[burmjohn]

Isnt bushnell coming out with a rackfinder?

[Doc]

Isnt bushnell coming out with a rackfinder?

Yup! It ranges the distance to the far antler and then the distance to the near antler and then subtracts the two.

[burmjohn]

It has two uses tho, it can also be used in urban area's, (its a setting) and instead of inches it says A,B,C,D, and DD.

OK, back to AR's... I did visit the butcher in my area. (2 miles from my property in 3H), he said not only have the racks been bigger, but the standard boxes he used to use to fit the meat in had to be increased.  He has not seen a decrease in the amount of deer he as been processing either.  Reason we were there is my uncle got a nice deer...

[nyantler]

no need for me to whistle  to get the deer in the pics to turn towards me. I already know its a buck I wouldn't take. But if I wasn't sure.. I would wait... OMG! that might mean not getting a buck! How can I ever be a hunter if I can't kill a buck every year? You guys kill me... its always the same guys too... you need to relax. This is just guys giving their opinions. If I didn't know better I would think you were a bunch of kids!

[Doc]

no need for me to whistle  to get the deer in the pics to turn towards me. I already know its a buck I wouldn't take. But if I wasn't sure.. I would wait... OMG! that might mean not getting a buck! How can I ever be a hunter if I can't kill a buck every year? You guys kill me... its always the same guys too... you need to relax. This is just guys giving their opinions. If I didn't know better I would think you were a bunch of kids!

So what you're saying is that there really is no way of determining the legality of those bucks when it comes to satisfying some theoretical antler spread restriction that you are supporting.

Your real solution is to simply wait until a deer goes by that satisfies your own personal goals and the antler spread stuff is just a bunch of irrelevant nonsense that most of the time can't be determined anyway. Well, I guess we agree on that.

Doc

[wztirem]

16.1743

See, now I happen to know you are wrong. When I ran up to them with my Stanley retractable tape measure, they measured an average of 17.2398".

I think I would have to learn the art of snap shooting if an antler spread rule were implemented. First I would have to get their attention with a whistle or by hollering so that they would look straight at me and I could see how the spread compared to the distance across their ears, and then get an arrow into them before they took off. :

Doc

Then you can dust off the slide rule to score him.

[KL WNY]

Antler restrictions aren't necessary for quality deer.  Look at all the big bucks that are taken by the hunters who are patient and disciplined enough to wait out the big ones.  I like the freedom for properly licensed, ethical hunters to decide for themselves what is acceptable within the legal guidelines. 

[TH41]

I have seen the results. Does it make a difference absolutely. We have had restrictions, by choice though, and have done it for quite a few years. Do the neighbors benefit from it? Sure they do. Will we ever see Iowa,kansas type whitetails? I don't know. But if I'm correct some of those big buck states never implimented antler restrictions. It became more of a if my neighbor is doing it,maybe I should. Cause some of the bucks they took were larger than the ones i took. I can see the state implimenting antler restrictions. Because some of those states are making some big green on nonresident hunters. I think it should be in slow moderation so the hunters or people can see results. Then it may settle somewhat better. 3 points to one side is not a hard thing to comply with. There are a lot of 6's and 5's every year.But again it should be in moderation.Either parts of counties or counties as a whole. I don't have the best of property food wise for deer. But it is nice to see more than a couple good bucks each season. I also have no problem with meat hunters. I don't buy their license.If it's good for them it's good for me. Not hypocritical. I just don't push my views or opinions. If folks want larger or mature bucks to have a crack at. The more there are the better the odds. if not thats ok too. As long as they enjoy hunting. And like I said i believe the state is gonna impliment ar's at some point anyhow.

[burmjohn]

Where are these big bucks taken? Again, AR is not needed for all area's.  There are plenty of area's of NYS where big bucks roam, and some where they don't.

[gjs4]

Though an obvious supporter due to the simple effective (though flawed) approach..... look at all the forums online and buck contests...NY hunters are set in their baby killer ways...compare the survey on here to that of pics posted. Maybe 2 bucks posted were older than 2.5....

Passed on a 115 8 sunday- neighbor killed  him yesterday...sucked in principal but know i can and will do better at some point on will shoot does to balance the herd and provide meat. Like those who disagree say- if you dont like it- too bad its my right..and its my opinion that the hunting experience in NYS is compromised by killing juvenile bucks.. as for the 15% of the deer take form the NZ..you guys are on your own...just referencing SZ guys here...

[Santamour123]

I hear alot of talk about QDM on here.  I am a supporter of antler restriction, for the simple fact as shown above.  1 person can not do it as long as his neighbors are not.  As for reducing the does population: I hunt my A@# off to maybe see 15 deer a year.  Along with seeing bigger bucks it is nice to see a deer period.  All of the land owners who are killing does off are baiscaly reducing their natural BAIT.  There is no more powerful BAIT than does. 

[gjs4]

Our deer herd, including doe:buck ratio, is way out of whack...

Does are not bait, does in estrus can/will allure bucks. Too many does means a "muted" seeking phase of the rut.  wNY is way out of whack with the ration. should be 1.5:1 (d: and was as high as 9:1 in some areas going back 10 years ago. If the population is balanced- so many things are better. Herd health (availble food, resistance to communicable diseases, age struture), hunting (bucks respond to rattling, better genetics transfered through preferential doe breeding), less deer hit on roads..etc.

when bucks go into lockdown with does they leave the main doe population- so your jam packed bar on ladies night is not a hot commodity. How much time on his feet does he need to find that one hot doe with so many around? and he has one- the others mean nothing. So more girls than guys means no guys spotted. see what i mean?

QDM and trophy buck management differ...most do not know/see that. regardless..if you wnat better buck hunting and a better deer hunting experience in most of upstate NY..buy and fill doe tags letting little bucks walk.

[Santamour123]

Maybe the population in southern and western NY are out of wack.  But not all NY is like that.  I hunt in the Anderoundacks.  When we run corners the old guys in camp say if you see 2 does and onother deer.  10 to 1 its a buck.  That is m y problem. To many people here the doe problem and feel they can help solve it.  It needs to be specified per location.  Not just say NY

[nyantler]

No Doc.. what I am saying is that its not rocket science. The only person that would have trouble with determining legal spread restriction is someone who is gonna complain no matter what solution there is.... its no different than determining if the antler is 3" long ... i'm not hunting looking for a buck that has 3 1/4 " antlers... I'm only going to take the buck that I'm sure is legal.  Its simple...the problem isn't with the restriction... its just with the person that doesn't like the restriction.

[gjs4]

the northern zone is 15% of the total deer harvest- no offense you guys are in a totally different predicament.

wNY and central NY are loaded in most areas.

Love how it comes back to quick decision making being hampered....god forbid folks know what theyre shooting... lol.

As posted in another thread on here...lots of tlakers; few walkers. My guess is many would shoot em tied to a stake and claim theyre sportsman.

[bubba]

This point may have already been posted as I admit, I did not read all 56 pages ok. If so please disregard. when antlerless permits are handed out, they ar elegal for any der under a 3 inch antler.  Whats to stop hunters from taking a 2 inch spike and puttinga dmp on it.  Or how about the number of button bucks taken with a dmp.  It seems ind of counter productive to AR to let this happen, but I cant shoot a decent sized crotch or 4 point.  So if AR becomes the law of the land,  do you punish someone for taking a 2 inch spike or button buck they can legally tag with a DMP.  These are deer that could have grown into mature bucks.

[nyantler]

Very good question Bubba!

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I'll go one better...two years ago my father took a monster doe in late muzzle loader...175 pounds....opppps...not a doe. Nice buck with huge bases. Both broken off at about an inch long. I would like to have seen that rack.

[Larry]

Could QDM be a prime factor in the lower number of deer sightings?

We all heard it at the end of deer season on wed sites or in publications from other hunters; I hunted all season and only saw 6 deer all season. Then we start looking for someone or something to blame. We blame the DEC because we think the herd size estimates are wrong, we blame coyotes, to many nuisance permits being given out and even cars. All these are factors and there are more one of the biggest factors is hardly mentioned and that’s “US” myself included.

  When we all first started to hear about QDM and its management style; we were told if we wanted to see bigger bucks we needed to let small bucks walk, manage does (kill more does) this is not the same as antlerless. We were told the buck to doe ratio was way off and needed to be 1 to 1 this ratio is not correct.

  The harvesting of doe’s makes scents; to control a population you need to add or subtract females. We were also told that if we killed Does we would see more bucks. I do not think that is necessarily true and I can prove it. When I say doe’s I mean females 1.5 years old and older not antlerless. Because at any time before the deer season ½ to 2/3’s of the antlerless population on a piece of land are fawns.

  If on your land you have 15 doe’s and 5 bucks (1.5 years and older) and you kill 10 doe’s and no bucks you still only have 5 bucks. What you have done is reduced the number of doe’s by 2/3’s. What you will see are more buck sightings per doe sighting and you will see fewer fawns the next year. Another example is in Allegany County a farmer started a QDM program on his 1700 acres. He went out at night spot lighting to see what kind of deer he had and he saw lots of antlerless deer. For 3 years they took over 40 doe’s a year using DMP’s and DMAP’s. He would let you hunt there but you had to kill doe’s no bucks. They would kill a few big bucks. Then in years 4-6 they started to kill fewer and fewer doe’s by year 6 they killed less than 10 doe’s and no bucks, saw plenty of bucks before the season but killed none. Funny thing started to happen, his neighbors started to kill big bucks. They were not killing off their doe’s so the bucks were moving to where the does are.

  What I believe he did was not only destroy his doe population he also destroyed the age structure of his doe herd. This is what I believe we are doing under the miss guided concept of killing doe’s gives you more bucks and the myth of the 1 to 1 buck to doe ratio. If anyone can show me how killing doe’s can give you more bucks that’s a trick I would like to see. With a birth rate at 50/50 bucks to doe’s I am not advocating not shooting doe’s; what I am advocating is be careful on how many and where in the age structure you harvest the doe’s from.

THIS IS A REPOST

[Doc]

No Doc.. what I am saying is that its not rocket science. The only person that would have trouble with determining legal spread restriction is someone who is gonna complain no matter what solution there is.... its no different than determining if the antler is 3" long ... i'm not hunting looking for a buck that has 3 1/4 " antlers... I'm only going to take the buck that I'm sure is legal.  Its simple...the problem isn't with the restriction... its just with the person that doesn't like the restriction.

Well, before you continue wandering too far away from what you were originally saying, let me bring it all back in focus. You originally were supporting antler spread as the AR method of choice. I assume that would involve some specific number of inches as a legal minimum, not some feeling or assumption, or guess. I pointed out that it is not a practical method of selection and gave reasons for that and supplied a bunch of pictures that supported that point since in most instances you simply cannot see the spread. So far, you have not told me one way that you are going to get those deer to turn their head toward you so you have a chance of complying with the law. Further, you offered no spread dimensions for the pictures of the bucks I supplied, and of course that is because there is absolutely no way that you could. So much for the practicality of antler spread for a legal standard. All I hear you saying is to make sure the antlers are so big that they can't possibly be under the legal spread. What kind of law is that? Is that how you would have the law written? That doesn't make any sense to hold hunters to a legal standard of something that cannot be seen most of the time.

Doc

[nyantler]

Wouldn't matter what the measurement was... some hunters would find an excuse for why it wouldn't work. But to answer your question...An alert deer's ear tips are approx 16" tip to tip. So the original 14" QDM recommendation from 15 years ago would be just fine to write the law. The ear tips would be the benchmark. But, it doesn't matter what the limit is... you will always have guys trying to find ways to defeat the purpose of the law which is to try and curb the killing of younger bucks. My point is that using some kind of restraint when it comes to killing bucks makes it easier to determine whether its a shooter or not. If in doubt ... don't shoot.. simple. Honestly there would be no need for antler restrictions if hunters weren't so hung up on having to kill any buck. My buddies an I know exactly what we mean when we say we hunt mature bucks.. we don't need a number to help us do the right thing.

[nyantler]

The reason I support AR is simply because its the only way to get a collective group of NY hunters to stop shooting smaller bucks. I have said in past posts that I don't think that the AR that the DEC has imposed on areas is anywhere close to what it really needs to be and really doesn't keep younger bucks from being killed. 3-point on one side can still be a small 1 1/2 old 6-point. 

[gjs4]

NY i am with you- just the easiest means to implement less juvenile bucks being blasted. not perfect....sick of this detailed flaws opposers bring up.....just excuses not to play along....