Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[Daveboone]

Limit the legal take of bucks to one per hunter, and there will be more bucks out there. We are hunting for meat anyway, not bragging rights. I will be very upset when I am told someone else is making the decision of whether or not I can shoot the buck of my choosing for my freezer.

[nyantler]

Limit the legal take of bucks to one per hunter, and there will be more bucks out there. We are hunting for meat anyway, not bragging rights. I will be very upset when I am told someone else is making the decision of whether or not I can shoot the buck of my choosing for my freezer.

The hunting for meat thing doesn't wash as far as I'm concerned when it comes to an argument against shooting yearlings.. there are too many other opportunities to take a doe or does for meat.

[Daveboone]

I have shot many two+ and three+ year old bucks that would fall outside QDM standards. (and many 1 1/2 year olds that would). If circumstance dictates limited time to hunt, or simply a poor selection in any given year...it still boils down to dictating what some one should shoot. less than 20 years of celebrity hunting show oriented hunting mentality has driven our sport into a "mine is bigger than yours" mentality, and taken away the respectability of hunting sportsmanship for a competitve "superbowl" sport mentality. I hunt from the beginning of NT ML season through the last day of ST ML season when I can, and do not lack for opportunities. Over the 40 years I have been hunting, deer populations and success rates have skyrocketed throughout the state. Hunters no longer hope to get a deer, they expect to get multiple deer. Now they want them bigger. There is little justification or respectability in the sport when we brag " I only QDM hunt, so I passed alot last year". Yeah, ok. B.S. Any QDM hunters I know dont eat venison to start, and it (qdm) just gives them another competition to participate in.

[nyantler]

I didn't say anything about QDM or their standards.. I'm talking about passing on yearlings and using the "I'm a meat hunter" as an argument for not passing on them. Thats all. The better argument is that you really don't care about all the age structure BS and you want to shoot what you want to shoot... I'm ok with that argument.. as least its truthful.

[wztirem]

http://buffalo.uwex.edu/files/2011/0...he-new-fad.pdf

[bubba]

ok my final thoughts on antler restrictions.  Antler are only restricted by genetics, feed, and the age if the buck. 

[gjs4]

95% of bucks in NY will grow a larger rack the following year. Age is the lacking factor in trophy potential and the herd structure.

I used to be an avid AR supporter...now I would back them just so guys on deer drives should verify their target before ripping 5 off. Think there are much better solutions to increase the age average of bucks in NY. Think we have way too many does in many portions of western and central NY.

The biggest factor in bumping the age of bucks alive and harvested- is having a clue. A lot of hunters do not want to believe they have an effect and the state does not have accurate numbers to provide any statistics of value. Sad deal boys....

[Carpenter]

I'll decide what size buck I want to shoot.  There are enough rules already.

[Pat Rockets]

Carpenter..i like yer style already..common sense

[Santamour123]

OK so I have been sitting back trying to fallow this whole argument.  From what I see, there ar the hunter that want to grow bigger bucks(they are very interested in the trophy aspect of it) and there are the hunters that are in it for the sport ( they want the meat and the better oportunity of a kill)

How about this.  All bucks harvested need at least 3 on 1 side to be a legal buck.  However to please the others you "buck" tag can be used on an antlerless deer.  This would help 4 fold

1- the younger bucks would get older

2- Safety more taget ID required

3- reduse the does in over populated areas

4- The hunters who just want to hunt  get a deer

Some will say it is not fair to restrict.  But if you want my honest opinion "4 on 1 side 2 week rifle season."  So my suggestion is very compramising!

And lets face it those who can go out and kill a spike the first weekend. If you could wait 1 -2 years all those spikes would be 6-8 or even better.

[SteveB]

60% of the 1.5 im my wmu are at least 3 on one side.

What would targeting them accomplish?

About 40% of the wmu's have no or low chances of getting a dmp - which means using your buck tag there for antlerless would lower the herd even more. How is that a good thing?

[Pat Rockets]

Also..good luck telling most property owners what they can and cant shoot..ill bet a majority of ar supporters dont even own property..jmo

[nyantler]

I'm pretty sure you might be mistaken there Pat...

[Culvercreek hunt club]

60% of the 1.5 im my wmu are at least 3 on one side.

What would targeting them accomplish?

About 40% of the wmu's have no or low chances of getting a dmp - which means using your buck tag there for antlerless would lower the herd even more. How is that a good thing?

If you are taking the  6 and 8 point 1.5 yo's out ...are they some of the better genetics?

And what of out brothers up in NZ with no doe tags and no open doe season....do we let them harvest does too with a population that DEC feels won't support a doe havest above ML and Bow...and some of those areas dont allow does to be taken with them either

[Santamour123]

Also..good luck telling most property owners what they can and cant shoot..ill bet a majority of ar supporters dont even own property..jmo

They already are told what they can and can't shoot!!!

Dates

Times

Weapons

and on and on and on

[nyantler]

Also..good luck telling most property owners what they can and cant shoot..ill bet a majority of ar supporters dont even own property..jmo

They already are told what they can and can't shoot!!!

Dates

Times

Weapons

and on and on and on

and a buck with 3" antlers... they must not realize that there is already an antler restriction

[Carpenter]

My own standards are much higher than what the DEC would establish, and I wish more people would practice QDM, but who am I to tell someone that the buck in their sights doesn't have enough non-edible bone on its skull?  If that's not what they're after I'd understand them if their response was, "Yeah, so?  And hey, why are you in my treestand with me anyway?"

If you shoot a young buck or an old buck you still get venison.  The difference is that one might be worthy of getting put on the wall and one isn't.  Those who don't care about shooting wall hangers shouldn't listen to anyone telling them that they can't shoot a buck if it doesn't fit _____ criteria.  If it's made of meat and you want to shoot it, fire away my friend.  Personally I'll wait for his great grand-dad, but that's a personal choice I made all by my adult freedom-loving self.

[Santamour123]

NY you are right. This will raise some opinions!!!  IMHO the anti AR people are realy fooling themselves and tring to convince every one elso of it as well.  Everysingle person here, I don;t care who you are would shoot an nice 8 point that was standing right next to a 4 point!!!.  And I will bet my life that they will feel great about it.  Now if those people would understand that 1-2 years of sacrafice ( maybe they would get luck off the bat and kill a nice buck) would realize all those oppertunities at smaller bucks they are having now would translate into the same amount of oopertunities at nice bucks

[Pat Rockets]

Theres already a restriction..you can throw a doe tag on if its less than 3" spikesr

[Santamour123]

My own standards are much higher than what the DEC would establish, and I wish more people would practice QDM, but who am I to tell someone that the buck in their sights doesn't have enough non-edible bone on its skull?  If that's not what they're after I'd understand them if their response was, "Yeah, so?  And hey, why are you in my treestand with me anyway?"

If you shoot a young buck or an old buck you still get venison.  The difference is that one might be worthy of getting put on the wall and one isn't.  Those who don't care about shooting wall hangers shouldn't listen to anyone telling them that they can't shoot a buck if it doesn't fit _____ criteria.  If it's made of meat and you want to shoot it, fire away my friend.  Personally I'll wait for his great grand-dad, but that's a personal choice I made all by my adult freedom-loving self.

I can undertsand the meat part.  But in my area not everyone, but alot of those who shoot smaller bucks do it in numbers.  Maybe if we could get them out of the woods would help.  Major fines for violators  i mean $1000+ not  $ 100 or a slap on the wrist.

[Carpenter]

Also..good luck telling most property owners what they can and cant shoot..ill bet a majority of ar supporters dont even own property..jmo

They already are told what they can and can't shoot!!!

Dates

Times

Weapons

and on and on and on

Yes, but unlike that list, this would require the legislation of standards.

[nyantler]

My own standards are much higher than what the DEC would establish, and I wish more people would practice QDM, but who am I to tell someone that the buck in their sights doesn't have enough non-edible bone on its skull?  If that's not what they're after I'd understand them if their response was, "Yeah, so?  And hey, why are you in my treestand with me anyway?"

If you shoot a young buck or an old buck you still get venison.  The difference is that one might be worthy of getting put on the wall and one isn't.  Those who don't care about shooting wall hangers shouldn't listen to anyone telling them that they can't shoot a buck if it doesn't fit _____ criteria.  If it's made of meat and you want to shoot it, fire away my friend.  Personally I'll wait for his great grand-dad, but that's a personal choice I made all by my adult freedom-loving self.

All that is true and would be fine... unless the AR is designed to increase the age structure of bucks... which IMO is a sound management policy...

[Carpenter]

"All that is true and would be fine... unless the AR is designed to increase the age structure of bucks... which IMO is a sound management policy..."

It's absolutely a sound management policy - for people who want to shoot mature bucks.  I'm one of those people too, but I respect other's right to harvest whatever deer they want within the confines of the laws as they stand.

If we all fit into a cookie-cutter mold it would be easier to set standards like that, but we don't.  Some people are busy and can only hunt a couple times per year, some are kids who would be thrilled with a spike horn, some are farmers who just want to shoot the deer eating their crops, etc.  I think our efforts would be better spent leading by example, and teaching others about the benefits of QDM.  If I manage my property well and other hunters see what I have hanging in my garage they'd be more inclined to pass on a younger buck.  The same goes for hunters next to QDM land who see or harvest a mature buck.  What's that saying - "One you go mature rack, you never go back?"  I don't know, it's something like that.

QDM is a growing trend, not a shrinking one.  I think we're doing a pretty good job of restricting ourselves by our own personal situations.

[nyantler]

I agree and I have much higher standards for myself as well.. my contention would be that if NY wanted to establish a good representative age class structure for bucks here in NY.. which we currently do not have... then AR's would be a good management policy to accomplish that goal.. regardless of what hunters want.. once that age structure was established... i think many if not most hunters would begin to see the benefit of having a stong age stucture and would pass on younger bucks knowing that they would have ample opportunity for a more mature buck... I also agree that allowing hunters to take what they want is also good policy if it doesn't disrupt good deer management.

[Carpenter]

... my contention would be that if NY wanted to establish a good representative age class structure for bucks here in NY... ...then AR's would be a good management policy to accomplish that goal.. regardless of what hunters want..

Who makes up NY?  To say it's a good thing for the hunting community regardless of what the hunting community wants is a very "I know what's better for you than you do" elitist attitude.  "I'll make you do things the way I do, and in the end you'll thank me for it."

By that standard we should tell everyone in NY to buy a 4x4 vehicle for the winter so we don't have to get stuck behind 1,000 lb compact cars with the traction of cross country skis.  Sure they won't want to do it, but I drive a 4x4 vehicle, love the benefits, and once I force everyone else to do it they'll eventually realize that I was right.

I know that's an apples to oranges comparison in one respect, but the premise is the same.  Both take away or limit personal choice, and replace it with a legislative alternative in hopes that people will be ok with it after they see the other side.  There's no situation where I would agree with that approach, especially for something like deer age structure, which doesn't have a very big impact on our livelihood.

I also think that if you approached someone standing above their dead yearling spike horn and told him/her that the deer they shot would have been bigger the next year, they would already know it.  Nobody out there shooting small bucks is unable to comprehend that young bucks become older bucks if they don't put vent-holes in their lungs.

People make the choice to perform at their best, skim by in a life of mediocrity, or meet somewhere in the middle.  I've been surrounded by yahoos shooting countless rounds at running deer, spike horns, button bucks, anything brown, but have still been able to see and harvest mature bucks.  I say - let them choose their own path, and I'll choose mine.

Now I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind, and mine won't ever stray from the mindset that each individual, in their own situation, facing their own unique circumstances, is best qualified to make their own decisions.

If they establish antler restrictions anticipate more normally law-abiding citizens (including children) being regarded as law-breakers for meat-hunting.  Sorry Little Johnny, we can't put a picture of your first buck on the internet because you technically shot it illegally.  Yes, that makes you a bad person in the eyes of the NYSDEC, but hey you're still alright in my book.