Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[nyantler]

You just might have to actually hunt more than just opening day to get one...

That is exactly what my point was. We are trying to legislate dedication to hunting. It can't be done and shouldn't be done. And if we continue to try by thinking up whole shopping lists of new restrictions and new methods of throwing new frustrations into the requirements of hunting, we should not be too surprised if we are not also adding to the problem of disappearing hunters.

As we shouldn't be making rules based on what "avid" hunters want.. we also shouldn't be not creating rules to satisfy those that are giving a half hearted effort to hunting as well... the rules are made for the benefit of BOTH animal and hunter.. I just think many selfish hunters forget about the animal part of why rules are made. The opening day comment was not about how many days the hutner hunts as much as how many hunters are not satisfied with hunting if they don't get their deer at 7am on opening day.

What you might consider restrictive and frustrating, I might consider challenging and exciting... you talk about losing hunters and and diminishing numbers of hunters necesssarily being a problem... I look at it as finally weeding out those that really put forth the least effort towards helping the cause of hunting... guys that hunt the least and bitch the loudest that things aren't good enough... and we're suppose to make management decisions to cater to the guy that barely hunts at all.. even if those decisions are not for the good of the animal?

And as for meat Dave... younger deer are not necessarily better for eating... it all depends on who is cooking and how the venison is cooked... I have eaten both young and older deer for year and years and have had no complaints about the meat of either... but have been disappointed with how it was cooked.

[YoungBucksTasteBetter]

Wow..so the guy who works in the private sector (so in these times can't count on getting time off during the season), who is raising kids (which means family obligations on the holidays during the season), etc...he buys his license knowing he might only get a few days out there, and all he asks is that the game regs be written to give him an opportunity to harvest a deer if he sees one.  In your world, because he isn't "dedicated enough", therefore he doesn't count?

[Dave]

It seems to me that the DEC was listening to all the big sportsman's clubs when it came up with the AR. But what about the little guy who is not part of a club? Who represents him in this matter, just another of the have and have not"s. These big Sportsman's Clubs and Sportsman's Federations are like lobbyist in Washington and we all know where this type of corrupt behavior has gotten us. Just to shut the little guy out I guess these clubs that have large tracks of land don't want the small land owers around their property shooting the deer before they can. So why not restrict them, Yea that will solve part of their problem.

Dave

[burmjohn]

Wow..so the guy who works in the private sector (so in these times can't count on getting time off during the season), who is raising kids (which means family obligations on the holidays during the season), etc...he buys his license knowing he might only get a few days out there, and all he asks is that the game regs be written to give him an opportunity to harvest a deer if he sees one.  In your world, because he isn't "dedicated enough", therefore he doesn't count?

I don't think he is saying that, I think he is saying that why should the rules cater to him more so then others.  Personally, in my area, from my experience and others around my area AR's have not decreased the opportunity, its actually increased the opportunity to harvest a buck.  Last year I think I saw one buck I could not take due to AR's every other buck legal to take according to the regs.

[YoungBucksTasteBetter]

Wow..so the guy who works in the private sector (so in these times can't count on getting time off during the season), who is raising kids (which means family obligations on the holidays during the season), etc...he buys his license knowing he might only get a few days out there, and all he asks is that the game regs be written to give him an opportunity to harvest a deer if he sees one.  In your world, because he isn't "dedicated enough", therefore he doesn't count?

I don't think he is saying that, I think he is saying that why should the rules cater to him more so then others.  Personally, in my area, from my experience and others around my area AR's have not decreased the opportunity, its actually increased the opportunity to harvest a buck.  Last year I think I saw one buck I could not take due to AR's every other buck legal to take according to the regs.

I appreciate what you are saying.  Unfortunately, that's not the experience I (and the guys I hunt with) have had in the northern end of the Pilot zone..our experience matches what the DEC document shows - ARs haven't produced more/bigger bucks - the buck kill has dropped by about 20% compared to pre-AR harvest levels and the bucks we are seeing/harvesting aren't physically any bigger than what we saw pre-AR and we still see a significant percentage of sub-legal (in AR terms) bucks walking around.  From our perspective (and the data in the DEC write-up suggests the majority of the hunters in the AR zone agree) the AR's have failed to produce the advertised result.  In my opinion, the ARs should be dropped based on the outcome of the pilot program.

[steve863]

In my opinion, the ARs should be dropped based on the outcome of the pilot program.

Please voice your opinion to the DEC about this as I and other already have.  As you probably know, they are proposing AR's to even more DMU's under their new plans.  The more people we have speak up, the more we can counter these so called "sportsman's" clubs who think they speak on the behalf of everyone who hunts these units.  You can e-mail them here.

[email protected]

[TheHunter]

Corrected this for you.

Please voice your opinion to the DEC about this in SUPPORT as I and others already have.  As you probably know, they are proposing AR's to even more DMU's under their new plans.  The more people we have speak up, the more we can counter these so called "sportsmen" that think they know what they are talking about despite the proven fact that AR works.  The concept of deer management has been proven to work in other states as it will and has in this state.

[email protected]

[SteveB]

So your opinion is the only right one - got it.

[steve863]

Corrected this for you.

Please voice your opinion to the DEC about this in SUPPORT as I and others already have.  As you probably know, they are proposing AR's to even more DMU's under their new plans.  The more people we have speak up, the more we can counter these so called "sportsmen" that think they know what they are talking about despite the proven fact that AR works.  The concept of deer management has been proven to work in other states as it will and has in this state.

[email protected]

Go ahead and write them to keep them in your WMU and keep your nose out of other WMU's where they are not wanted.  You keep accusing others of not knowing about the area YOU hunt, yet you want AR's expanded to other areas.  You idiots obviously have an agenda and it is clearly showing.

[JCTheGC]

Corrected this for you.

Please voice your opinion to the DEC about this in SUPPORT as I and others already have.  As you probably know, they are proposing AR's to even more DMU's under their new plans.  The more people we have speak up, the more we can counter these so called "sportsmen" that think they know what they are talking about despite the proven fact that AR works.  The concept of deer management has been proven to work in other states as it will and has in this state.

[email protected]

I sent my letter of support for the AR's, the results we have seen have been larger bodied bucks.  Let them go let them grow... And yes most hunters who educate themselves on the importance of a balanced herd and deer management do support AR's.  Its not the best plan, however its the plan we have that the DEC can manage in large scale. 

[TheHunter]

Go ahead and write them to keep them in your WMU and keep your nose out of other WMU's where they are not wanted.  You keep accusing others of not knowing about the area YOU hunt, yet you want AR's expanded to other areas.  You idiots obviously have an agenda and it is clearly showing.

Awww... Steve why the hate, calling me an idiot.. My agenda has been the same from day one, deer herd mangement and proper age structure.  Your immaturity matches the immature bucks you've been mowing down all these years. 

[solon]

"The concept of deer management has been proven to work in other states as it will and has in this state."

Define work - does that mean my hunting privelage will be diminished ? - can I pay less if the definition of "work" means less oportunity for someone that has to work for a paycheck 5-6 days a week and gets limited time in the field....

it's amazing how people complain about government regulations annd yet here people are proposing more....

don't tread on me

[steve863]

Yup, you ARE an idiot, and I am probably old enough to be your daddy and have killed more deer of various sizes than you are able to count up to.  For your information I have hunted  since 1977 and besides NY, have also hunted PA, AL, WY, MT, TX and British Columbia and Quebec in Canada.  Only in your dreams will you have the hunting experiences I have had over the years.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

  My agenda has been the same from day one, deer herd mangement and proper age structure. 

Keep it where you hunt then. The areas I hunt in 5,6,7,8 don't need them. There are mature bucks here and those not afraid of a little hard hunting can find and harvest them...if that is what you are aiming for. Those satisfied with any buck and having the choice,,,,,,plenty of bucks to go around.

I wonder how many hunters have abandoned the AR areas for other areaas of the state to have the ability to harvest their choice?

[TheHunter]

Yup, you ARE and idiot, and I am probably old enough to be your daddy and have killed more deer of various sizes than you are able to count up to.  For your information I have hunted  since 1977 and besides NY, have also hunted PA, AL, WY, MT, TX and British Columbia and Quebec in Canada.  Only in your dreams will you have the hunting experiences I have had over the years.

After all your amazing hunting experiances all over the states as you brag about you would have thought you would have learned a few things along your travels. 

Clearly your old, but not wise.

70% of the deer taken in NY are fawns and yearlings, I do not undertand why there is no much hate and controversy over letting the small ones walk.  You really can't let them go?

[steve863]

Yup, you ARE and idiot, and I am probably old enough to be your daddy and have killed more deer of various sizes than you are able to count up to.  For your information I have hunted  since 1977 and besides NY, have also hunted PA, AL, WY, MT, TX and British Columbia and Quebec in Canada.  Only in your dreams will you have the hunting experiences I have had over the years.

After all your amazing hunting experiances all over the states as you brag about you would have thought you would have learned a few things along your travels. 

Clearly your old, but not wise.

70% of the deer taken in NY are fawns and yearlings, I do not undertand why there is no much hate and controversy over letting the small ones walk.  You really can't let them go?

What I have learned and YOU have yet to learn is that hunting means different things to different people.  For some like you antlers are everything and you use flawed biology to try to justify and make everyone else think that AR's is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  I on the other hand believe that hunting is NOT all about antlers and want to give people the freedom of choice to hunt the way they want.  With AR's you are putting limitations on people.  Without AR's you aren't putting limitations on anyone.  You can continue to hunt for antlers to your hearts content, while others can hunt for what they want.  Some like you want to try to make things easier for yourselves by restricting others, while others like me believe that one needs to WORK for the things they truly want.

[TheHunter]

What I have learned and YOU have yet to learn is that hunting means different things to different people.  For some like you antlers are everything and you use flawed biology to try to justify and make everyone else think that AR's is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  I on the other hand believe that hunting is NOT all about antlers and want to give people the freedom of choice to hunt the way they want.  With AR's you are putting limitations on people.  Without AR's you aren't putting limitations on anyone.  You can continue to hunt for antlers to your hearts content, while others can hunt for what they want.  Some like you want to try to make things easier for yourselves by restricting others, while others like me believe that one needs to WORK for the things they truly want.

This is where your ingorance on herd management or just the complete lack of care of the deer herd and the future of hunting shines.  You keep mentioning antlers, it not just about the antlers, its about age.  You keep mentioning restricting others, for what? One year while those immature deer grow older, bigger, stronger, more meat?  It has nothing to with making it easy and putting in the time and work.  I hunt a lot, expecially for one that works a 9 to 5'r.  I bow, muzzle and rifle hunt.  AR's has improved the herd over the last 4+ years it more ways then just antlers as you seem to cling to.  The majorty agree's with me as its been proven time and time again in the DEC and non DEC conducted surveys including the simple poll on this topic. 

[YoungBucksTasteBetter]

This exchange brings up an interesting question - how many of the 132  folks claiming support for AR in the poll at the top of this post are  doing so knowing that it has no impact on them where they hunt? 

I'm  thinking it must be truly easy to support a reg that tells a guy  halfway across the state that he can't shoot a spike when you know you  still have that option for yourself.  (I know, I know...all of the AR  supporters only hunt mature bucks, and they'd never think of filling  that tag with a spike/forker on the last day).

Read the 14 pages from the NY deer team lead's "Summary of New York's Pilot Antler Restriction Program" again.  After 5 deer seasons, "a majority of hunters report being dissatisfied and having unmet expectations with (1) the number of older, larger-antlered bucks seen, (2) the number of antlered bucks compared to antlerless deer seen, and (3) their opportunity to shoot large-antlered bucks."  This is based on data gathered from the hunters who live/hunt in the pilot AR zone.

The AR program has failed to deliver as advertised - it should be dropped from the pilot zone.  Maybe instead of writing letters telling DEC to force a guy on the other side of the state to let little bucks walk, you should be volunteering your own backyard for these restrictions.

[steve863]

As I and others have told you before, then keep AR's in YOUR unit and stay out of the others.  Very simple, but obviously not simple enough for you to understand I guess.  We know darned well what AR's are all about.  You guys simply can't get yourselves to be honest about it.  You keep repeating that it's better for the herd health and age structure when the truth behind it is easy enough for a blind man to see.  As we have pointed out before you never would have had such biological theories if hunters wanting more trophy deer didn't pay biologists to devise it.  When we point this out, you tell us we are ignorant. So be it.  I could give a hoot what you think.

 

[steve863]

This is directly from a friend who has a degree in fisheries and wildlife biology from Cobleskill and is very involved in the AR debate. I asked him what is the real reason they implemented AR's in NY. Heres his answer:

The reason they used the WMU's in the Catskill's was a HUGE decline in the  harvest in a few counties.......a kind of population crash that affected the  Northern and Central Catskills. Literally a 40% decline in buck harvest in  places like Delaware county. Heavy antlerless harvest, bad weather, high hunting  pressure ,years of consecutive mast crop failure and habitat quality decline all  lead to it as well as predation from Bears and Coyotes.

DEC decided to  attempt a pilot program , as it believed the area would benefit most from a  reduced buck harvest , it has nothing to do with antler quality.........they  knew that the herd could not rebound without enough bucks to breed the available  antlerless deer. Normally, if you protect the buck herd, you need to be very  aggressive with controlling the antlerless deer (see PA) because the breeding  efficiency skyrockets, this is caused by the protection of the largest single  population of bucks by age class.......far more bucks actively breeding (and yes  1.5 year olds DO breed....and they are very good at it as long as they are not  killed off). The only problem with the areas they are doing it , is the  potential for both population expansion and antler growth are among the worst in  the state.....but it is a start , and IMO a biologically sound plan.

It is  unnecessary and will have negative effects if implemented in the Western NY  DMU's as they have tremendous deer herds and potential for growth if AR's are  implemented......it would take a phenomenal amount of population control to keep  it in check.......something we barely do now.

Then the DEC and everyone else supporting AR's in these units should call it what it was really implemented for, which appears to be an attempt to reduce the buck kill.  Fair enough.  I can accept this as a management tool for this particular location if they saw a need for it.  I however will NOT accept that AR's by themselves will ever be needed to improve the health of a herd or for a better age structure.  As I mentioned before, everyone, including the DEC it appears should be more honest and truthful about all this.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

out of the same survey that keeps getting press here

 

Hunters in all parts of the state passed-up shots in a substantial proportion of encounters with both YBs (>75% of opportunities) and OBs (>40% of opportunities). Although these rates of passing-up shots at bucks may seem high, they apparently reflect well hunters’ harvest decisions during the season.

So 3 out of every four encounters with young bucks are passed on by hunters throughout the state. sounds like a majority are passing on YB's already. At least until the last day/weekend rolls around and they dump one. How many of these same guys are in the numbers that support the progeam in that percent?

[steve863]

out of the same survey that keeps getting press here

  Hunters in all parts of the state passed-up shots in a substantial proportion of encounters with both YBs (>75% of opportunities) and OBs (>40% of opportunities). Although these rates of passing-up shots at bucks may seem high, they apparently reflect well hunters’ harvest decisions during the season.

So 3 out of every four encounters with young bucks are passed on by hunters throughout the state. sounds like a majority are passing on YB's already. At least until the last day/weekend rolls around and they dump one. How amny of these same guys are in the numbers that support the progeam in that percent?

I reckon some sort of metamorphosis occurs on the last weekend, where in desperation of not having to eat their tag, they revert from the biologically proven, forward thinking AR supporters,  back down to the ranks of the barbarian brown and it's down guys! LOL  Kind of like what happens to the incredible Hulk.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Same here Center. I have bben luck the last 5 or 6 years and it never came down to that. I have lucked out and had the opportunity at the does. I would love to say I would pass a YB with 100% certainty but until I get in that position on the last day....you just never know . I do like to know I and others have that choice though.

[Dave]

Same here Center. I have bben luck the last 5 or 6 years and it never came down to that. I have lucked out and had the opportunity at the does. I would love to say I would pass a YB with 100% certainty but until I get in that position on the last day....you just never know . I do like to know I and others have that choice though.

Culver totally agree with you, I hunt the same way, it's all about the choice.

Dave

[Doc]

I don't think he is saying that, I think he is saying that why should the rules cater to him more so then others.  Personally, in my area, from my experience and others around my area AR's have not decreased the opportunity, its actually increased the opportunity to harvest a buck.  Last year I think I saw one buck I could not take due to AR's every other buck legal to take according to the regs.

And again, I have to state that we should not be imagining that what we see in our own small acreage of hunting is the same across the state. It's a common mistake that people often make when performing arm-chair game management. There are certain WMUs around the state that don't even issue antlerless permits and others where permits are severely limited. I can imagine the defeated feeling that a hunter in those areas would feel when they are told that none of the does are eligible for harvest and now the DEC wants to make all of the bucks that they are likely to see illegal to shoot at. Why would they buy a license? Better they should forget the gun, the bow and the purchase of a license and just go out with a camera where so far no one is trying to tell them what is worth taking. I don't think that would be an unreasonable reaction. Apparently some of the hunters think that is even a good idea. If we want to "weed out" hunters that don't have time or even inclination to hunt with the intensity that we do, I suppose some of these restrictions are useful for that purpose. I just don't happen to think that given the state of hunter decline that such thinking is right minded by the DEC or hunters in general. And since the DEC has already publicly stated that there is no biological need or benefit to be reaped from AR, I don't see why they should be pushing them unless they are interested in getting involved in this "weeding out" process. Thankfully, I don't think it is in their financial interest to get into the position of mandating "hunting dedication" as a pre-requisite to the right to hunt. I cannot agree with policies that have that as the intended result. I just don't have it in me to insist that there is some magical level of dedication that must be adhered to and that frustrations and restrictions should be added until we have a pared down elite group of hunters remaining.