Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[Skillet]

I report all of my deer & I take all of them legally.  I'm not trying to be adversarial to anyone.  I'm just saying, if my freezer is empty at the end of the season and an "illegal" buck comes by, I'm going to shoot.  I don't have a ton of time to hunt.  I eat mostly wild game and I cannot afford to buy my meat.  I don't relish the thought of breaking the law, but I would if I needed to.  I won't apologize for that.

[G-Man]

ar's will not increase the population to any significant level. need doe to do that! only that of bucks, and in fact will hurt it as more deer will be alive after the season competing for limited food sources thus decreasing size of antlers...deer numbers are a factor of Habitat and Age!! not size of antlers. Learn to tell age of deer not antler size!! In high hunting pressure areas the buck population will be "hi graded" quickly leaving 4pt and such which if they remain 4pt will be allowed to pass the genes on for sm point characterstics. Most land managers usuing point restrictions are doing on access controlled property! Yes pennslyvania has it state wide but the only places showing marked improvement are private properties in the southern half of pa. I havent seen great bucks come off the poor habitat of big woods in the state owned northern part even with the antler restrictions. The state would be much better off cutting timber in the stateforests and making it thick so smart deer can hide and make it another year! not to mention they could cut our taxes with the funds earned from timber sales!

[Skillet]

So centerpunch, are you saying that you don't believe 1 & 1/2 yr olds breed?  How will AR impact the number of antlerless deer, reversing the effect of DMP "over harvest"?  And yes, I would absolutely break the law if need be, my family comes first.

[nyantler]

If a guy goes fishing for say walleye and the size limit is 15in and you only catch 12in you have to throw them back.Guess what.. the state just told you what you could keep.They dont care if you only fish a weekend or two.AR is no different.Will you go fishing again and hope for a keeper...you bet you will.We all do and we all will.Same thing with deer.You will keep going untill you get a keeper!!!!

 

I don't buy this.  You probably catch your walleye in public waters, while the majority of hunters still prefer to hunt private land for various reasons, which if you didn't notice is getting harder to come by OR costing hunters more and more to have access to.  Whether you own it or lease it, it costs WAY more money than catching your walleye in public waters.  There lies the difference.  People won't be wasting their time and money on hunting if there is very little that is legal for them to shoot.

You must have forgotten the cost of the boat, gas, license... but his point had nothing to do with harder or easier.. it was that no matter what.. you don't really have a choice if the DEC says you don't... and he's right.. most guys will continue hunting.. AR's or not... the ones that don't oh well... nobody has yet mentioned that maybe guys will stop hunting if something isn't done about managing the buck age structure cuz they're sick of seeing only young bucks... or maybe some guys wanna quit cuz there are too many hunters in the woods killing the first thing they see... this "everyone is gonna take their ball and go home" is a bunch of nonsense.

Lots of fishing can be done without a boat, and one gets most of the excitement involved in fishing by reeling in that fish even if it doesn't measure up and you have to throw it back.  The same cannot be said about hunting.  You could have a perfect set up and see scores of deer that don't quite measure up from your stand, but guess what?  You don't know for sure whether your bullet or arrow would have connected on that deer unless you actually fire your weapon at it.  There are only so many deer the majority of hunters will let walk because the law says they have to let them walk, before they take up other activities where they DON'T need to buy a license, pay property taxes, pay for leases, just to LOOK at animals.  You can hike without a license and see scores of animals.  You can photograph them on public or private land without a license.  Why would hunters continue to buy licenses if they knew there was only a slim chances of even seeing a deer that was actually legal to shoot??  Yeah, some would continue to buy licenses, but don't for a minute think the many weekend warrior hunters out there wouldn't be saying "the hell with it, why am I even wasting my time!".  Lots of distractions in every day life to make hunting not the most important priority for most people.  All it takes is to make the sport a little less appealing, and people will very easily give it up.  I for one have way LESS desire to hunt these days than I did 20 years ago.  Why?  Mainly because there are way MORE important things in life than hunting.  Make it where my chances of getting a doe permit are slim and where I can only shoot a buck that meets AR restrictions and I will then prefer to spend my limited free time in the outdoors hiking with my wife and kids instead of sitting in a stand by myself and waiting around for nothing.  I could twiddle my thumbs on my living room sofa just the same and probably be more comfortable doing it! LOL

That would be because you see it as a limitation to your hunting, I don't look at it that way.. and neither do many other hunters that understand deer management... I will grant you that the DEC doesn't have a firm grip on what deer management is either and aren't necessarily making the right decisions when it comes to managing by DMU... but the concept of managing deer herds is a sound one and is needed in many areas of NY... maybe not yours and mine... but in many.

As for your desire to hunt.. that doesn't say anything about how others feel... first of all.. hunting probably shouldn't be anyones top priority but that doesn't mean they don't love it and that they don't do a lot of it... others like you may be more content twiddling your thumbs on the sofa... and that could be a lot of the reason you have the outlook you do about hunting regs. Life is about choices... if you choose not to hunt that is your right.. for whatever reason... my feeling is that losing the weekend warriors or disinterested hunters... will have zero impact on whether or not I am for or against a new hunting regulation... if I think it's good for deer management then it's good to me... if others don't... they can feel free to sit on the sofa and twiddle... maybe that will make more room on the state land for those that do still enjoy hunting.

[Skillet]

We can't afford to lose any hunters, regardless of our differences in opinion on this or any other issue.  We are all going to have to agree to disagree.  This type of division is just what the antis want.  Each to their own as far as I'm concerned.  I regret even posting on the issue.  As far as losing hunters and not caring, that is really short sighted.  That attitude will have us all "twiddling our thumbs" in the near future.

[erussell]

I really don't see this as division, just chewin the fat. We could all get in a fist fight over this around the fire but come 6 in the morn. We would all pile in the truck and go hunting together. Thats what huntings all about.

[nyantler]

We can't afford to lose any hunters, regardless of our differences in opinion on this or any other issue.  We are all going to have to agree to disagree.  This type of division is just what the antis want.  Each to their own as far as I'm concerned.  I regret even posting on the issue.  As far as losing hunters and not caring, that is really short sighted.  That attitude will have us all "twiddling our thumbs" in the near future.

Hunting is the only proven animal control method and will continue as long as there is habitat and animals enough to control... whether or not guys decide to continue hunting is their decision... making management decisions based on whether hunters "might" stop hunting is short sighted from a conservation point of view... It is much better to have fewer hunters... that are concerned about furthering conservation efforts... than a large group of hunters that don't really stand for anything other than their own selfishness and what hunting can do for them personally... How does that kind of attitude benefit hunting or wildlife? If my buddy wants to stop hunting because licenses get raised $10, I'll be glad to pay his fee along with mine and have the extra tags... if he was only hunting opening day and not seeing deer... I'm sure I can pick up where he left off without anyone even knowing he was missing.

[steve863]

If a guy goes fishing for say walleye and the size limit is 15in and you only catch 12in you have to throw them back.Guess what.. the state just told you what you could keep.They dont care if you only fish a weekend or two.AR is no different.Will you go fishing again and hope for a keeper...you bet you will.We all do and we all will.Same thing with deer.You will keep going untill you get a keeper!!!!

 

I don't buy this.  You probably catch your walleye in public waters, while the majority of hunters still prefer to hunt private land for various reasons, which if you didn't notice is getting harder to come by OR costing hunters more and more to have access to.  Whether you own it or lease it, it costs WAY more money than catching your walleye in public waters.  There lies the difference.  People won't be wasting their time and money on hunting if there is very little that is legal for them to shoot.

You must have forgotten the cost of the boat, gas, license... but his point had nothing to do with harder or easier.. it was that no matter what.. you don't really have a choice if the DEC says you don't... and he's right.. most guys will continue hunting.. AR's or not... the ones that don't oh well... nobody has yet mentioned that maybe guys will stop hunting if something isn't done about managing the buck age structure cuz they're sick of seeing only young bucks... or maybe some guys wanna quit cuz there are too many hunters in the woods killing the first thing they see... this "everyone is gonna take their ball and go home" is a bunch of nonsense.

Lots of fishing can be done without a boat, and one gets most of the excitement involved in fishing by reeling in that fish even if it doesn't measure up and you have to throw it back.  The same cannot be said about hunting.  You could have a perfect set up and see scores of deer that don't quite measure up from your stand, but guess what?  You don't know for sure whether your bullet or arrow would have connected on that deer unless you actually fire your weapon at it.  There are only so many deer the majority of hunters will let walk because the law says they have to let them walk, before they take up other activities where they DON'T need to buy a license, pay property taxes, pay for leases, just to LOOK at animals.  You can hike without a license and see scores of animals.  You can photograph them on public or private land without a license.  Why would hunters continue to buy licenses if they knew there was only a slim chances of even seeing a deer that was actually legal to shoot??  Yeah, some would continue to buy licenses, but don't for a minute think the many weekend warrior hunters out there wouldn't be saying "the hell with it, why am I even wasting my time!".  Lots of distractions in every day life to make hunting not the most important priority for most people.  All it takes is to make the sport a little less appealing, and people will very easily give it up.  I for one have way LESS desire to hunt these days than I did 20 years ago.  Why?  Mainly because there are way MORE important things in life than hunting.  Make it where my chances of getting a doe permit are slim and where I can only shoot a buck that meets AR restrictions and I will then prefer to spend my limited free time in the outdoors hiking with my wife and kids instead of sitting in a stand by myself and waiting around for nothing.  I could twiddle my thumbs on my living room sofa just the same and probably be more comfortable doing it! LOL

That would be because you see it as a limitation to your hunting, I don't look at it that way.. and neither do many other hunters that understand deer management... I will grant you that the DEC doesn't have a firm grip on what deer management is either and aren't necessarily making the right decisions when it comes to managing by DMU... but the concept of managing deer herds is a sound one and is needed in many areas of NY... maybe not yours and mine... but in many.

As for your desire to hunt.. that doesn't say anything about how others feel... first of all.. hunting probably shouldn't be anyones top priority but that doesn't mean they don't love it and that they don't do a lot of it... others like you may be more content twiddling your thumbs on the sofa... and that could be a lot of the reason you have the outlook you do about hunting regs. Life is about choices... if you choose not to hunt that is your right.. for whatever reason... my feeling is that losing the weekend warriors or disinterested hunters... will have zero impact on whether or not I am for or against a new hunting regulation... if I think it's good for deer management then it's good to me... if others don't... they can feel free to sit on the sofa and twiddle... maybe that will make more room on the state land for those that do still enjoy hunting.

I can guarantee you that there are way MORE weekend warrior type amongst the total hunting populace than there are those like you who think they know everything there is to know about proper deer management.  It is quite obvious that you would prefer that the weekend warrior type stay home so that YOU have more land and game available for yourself.  That point you have made perfectly clear to everyone here.

[Dave]

Just take a look at this economy, unemployment rates and you tell me that it's not going to affect the hunting numbers. If people are concerned about their jobs and paying their bills hunting is the last thing on their minds. So as they see the changes proposed by the DEC they will realize that they are paying for nothing and guess what they will not buy that license. They will not take the time off from work just to sit in the woods and take pictures of the game they can't shoot. They will opt to stay home with their families and save the money, and use it where it is needed, not in the pockets of the DEC. This will make some on this site happy to have the deer and the woods to them selves. You know who I am referring to.

Dave

[Doewhacker]

"Hunting is the only proven animal control method and will continue as long as there is habitat and animals enough to control.."

You know the DEC has studied what other measures could be taken if we hunters don't do our job of killing. Things like, re-introducing wolves and deer contraception, hunting is by far the best method but it should be noticed that they already have the studies done for the just in case scenario. My recomendation, kill deer, its our jobs.

[Skillet]

I am a weekend warrior.  I work for a living, just like most of the people on here.  On my weekends, on my land, I will shoot deer.  I don't care if that 4 point could've been a pope some day, he will look just as good in the freezer, and taste a hell of a lot better.  Don't get me wrong, if I can choose between a doe or a young buck, I'll take the doe.  However, if the buck presents a shot first, too bad for him.  Everyone would like a big rack, but I'm not waiting for it.  I don't care if I never get a "big" buck.  Your 130" is no more of a trophy to me than my forkie.  I will not be told what I can shoot by anyone, much less someone who in my opinion has lost sight of what hunting should be about.

[steve863]

 

"Hunting is the only proven animal control method and will continue as long as there is habitat and animals enough to control.."

Right, and they can call us half-assed hunters or hunters that are expendable, but the "weekend warriors" probably account for the majority of the deer that get killed in NYS.  Most are not passing up deer for 10 seasons or more waiting for that wallhanger to come by.  They are doing the job that the DEC wants us to do, which is kill deer.  End result= these "weekend warriors" are MORE important to the DEC than any other group of hunters.

[Skillet]

Wow centerpunch, big words.  You must be a real expert.  Yeah, the deer herd is really decimated in lots of parts of NY, just look at all the news articles.  In fact, I'm thinking of starting a "Save the deer" foundation, New York chapter. I think that the anti's biggest issue would be with trophy hunters.  But, you are the expert, so please enlighten me, oh guru of wildlife.  I'd like to see your source that says deer numbers are too low ANYWHERE in NY.  And as far as your belief that AR is not aimed at trophy production...........Bull.

[Dave]

 

"Hunting is the only proven animal control method and will continue as long as there is habitat and animals enough to control.."

Right, and they can call us half-assed hunters or hunters that are expendable, but the "weekend warriors" probably account for the majority of the deer that get killed in NYS.  Most are not passing up deer for 10 seasons or more waiting for that wallhanger to come by.  They are doing the job that the DEC wants us to do, which is kill deer.  End result= these "weekend warriors" are MORE important to the DEC than any other group of hunters.

Well put

Dave

[Skillet]

So centerpunch, let me ask you something.  If guns were outlawed, not all guns, but let's say all semi auto shotguns just to start, would you turn yours in because that would be the law?  Or because a politician said it was a good idea?  I certainly hope you would tell them to stuff it, but I doubt it, because that would make you a "Law breaker"  Some of us have limits as to how far we're going to let government agencies push us.  Also, was your biologist employed by the DEC?  HMMMMM....  wonder where his loyalties lie. 

[Dave]

Wow centerpunch, big words.  You must be a real expert.  Yeah, the deer herd is really decimated in lots of parts of NY, just look at all the news articles.  In fact, I'm thinking of starting a "Save the deer" foundation, New York chapter. I think that the anti's biggest issue would be with trophy hunters.  But, you are the expert, so please enlighten me, oh guru of wildlife.  I'd like to see your source that says deer numbers are too low ANYWHERE in NY.  And as far as your belief that AR is not aimed at trophy production...........Bull.

I got my info from a wildlife biologist. I tend to believe him more than a law breaker like you! The deer herd is not decimated in all of NY, thats why they will never have AR's in regions 7, 8 &9. In regions 3 & 4 its a different story. Dont come on here and talk crap about breaking the law if you dont even know the facts.

You must admit that Skillet is being perfectly honest. Saying something that many hunters feel but will not put into words on this thread. Whether you or I agree with him or not. There are the fore and against and there are hunters who will do what they feel is right to them. It has always been that way and I don't think it will change.

Dave

Dave

[Doewhacker]

"The deer herd is not decimated in all of NY, thats why they will never have AR's in regions 7, 8 &9. In regions 3 & 4 its a different story."

I don't know, its tough to say an area is "decimated" when we see lots of deer in the areas we hunt in region 3. Allways have too.

[Skillet]

You give them an inch, they will take a mile.  AR will spread to the entire state eventually, I think.  I'm not trying to change your mind, think what you want.  I really don't care, and your thoughts are not worth me getting upset over.  You take yours, I'll take mine, and we can leave eachother the hell alone. Deal?

[Skillet]

And shooting 10 deer is a whole different thing than somebody shooting a buck with what the DEC says is too small a rack.

[Dave]

"The deer herd is not decimated in all of NY, thats why they will never have AR's in regions 7, 8 &9. In regions 3 & 4 its a different story."

I don't know, its tough to say an area is "decimated" when we see lots of deer in the areas we hunt in region 3. Allways have too.

DEC states there was a 40% decline in buck harvest in delaware county before implementing AR's. Some properties may not have seen this effect and some did. The DEC goes by the area as a whole, not just property by property.

I hunt in Delaware county and the buck take is down in my area more than 40%. My camp got one last year , I saw two during bow but no cigar. But I did see more does than I have seen in the past few years.

Dave

[Doewhacker]

"The deer herd is not decimated in all of NY, thats why they will never have AR's in regions 7, 8 &9. In regions 3 & 4 its a different story."

I don't know, its tough to say an area is "decimated" when we see lots of deer in the areas we hunt in region 3. Allways have too.

DEC states there was a 40% decline in buck harvest in delaware county before implementing AR's. Some properties may not have seen this effect and some did. The DEC goes by the area as a whole, not just property by property.

There is more to the herd than just bucks. And you were the one that made the blanket statement of the herd being "decimated" in regions 3&4. It looks just fine to me in our area, if anything there are far too many Doe.

[nyantler]

I can guarantee you that there are way MORE weekend warrior type amongst the total hunting populace than there are those like you who think they know everything there is to know about proper deer management.  It is quite obvious that you would prefer that the weekend warrior type stay home so that YOU have more land and game available for yourself.  That point you have made perfectly clear to everyone here.

Yeah it's pretty clear that I am after all the game and land for myself... I'm curious if everyone here thinks that's true... be a good way to gauge if anyone is really paying attention... 

[wztirem]

A lot of people pay attention. If people can only hunt on weekends, what is the problem? As far as what Steve said, weekend warriors probably represent the majority of hunters.

My advice to you is to week days!

[nyantler]

A lot of people pay attention. If people can only hunt on weekends, what is the problem? As far as what Steve said, weekend warriors probably represent the majority of hunters.

My advice to you is to week days!

Someone isn't paying attention cuz I never said weekend warriors were a problem... ???

And I hunt all week thanks

[nyantler]

Dave.. I'm surprised that the DEC has missed all the decimated herds in NY... I mean if they knew that you only saw 2 bucks and no cigar with bow and a lot more does than normal.. and your camp only got one buck... wouldn't you think that they would take that info and put out an "all points bulletin" that herds in your area were decimated and call an emergency meeting to do something about it right away?? ???