Clarification of the Draft Deer Management Plan from the DEC

So I was just about to post this...it was an E-mail sent ....I thought in response to my calling with opinion...problem is I never commented on ,What he e-mailed, in my call...my call was on safety issues and gun hunting in  the middle of bow with no mandatory orange....So this was a blanket response? or are they reading the forums?

Pretty sure its in response the the forum activity. DEC isnt as stupid as some make them out to be, and this forum comes up quite a bit on Google if you are referring to subjects we talk about in your search.

If you have it enabled in your profile, you can be emailed through the site, so they probably sent them to those that were complaining about those two things.

Got the email myself as well.  What I got out of this is they want to be able to manage the deer herd and try not to make a big stink amongst hunters with the buck tag.  In this way they can manage doe harvest better via applying for dmp for each wmu.  It will be interesting to see what areas will get permits and which ones will not.  Also if landowners will still get a guaranteed doe permit for their area as well.  Oh and lets not forget it is also a source for income.  Which leads to another question of how many are going to just take the buck tags and say the heck with the doe tags.  Like I said before although I dont like spending money it is a rather small amount to get a doe permit if it stays at 10 dollars to enjoy an extra opportunity to put meat in the freezer.  Now that Im writing this I also wonder what it will do to our deer population as well.  If guys forgoe the doe permits and start taking younger class bucks will our doe herd explode and older class bucks see a decline.  Or am I just reading this all wrong?  ONe other question I have is do they currently charge for nuisance control permits?  If not I think they should because we will see an increase in the amount given out if indeed hunters forego getting the doe permits.  Be interesting to say the least how all this plays out. 

So what is being said here is what I have been hearing directly and 2nd hand from the DEC already. Basicly they have and still do think that bow season is an insufficient weapon for deer control and they want to install a precedent that allows them to slip in a gun season or two (muzzle-loader for now) at any time they feel a need to hack on the deer population. In other words bow season is to be used as the sacrificial time of the year where they can implement whatever weapons they deem necessary to get the job done.

I believe that this is the attitude that keeps this early muzzle loader season reappearing every so many years. It also explains why they have been dragging their feet on setting an October 1st opener for bow season. They wanted to wait until they were able to establish a few early gun seasons to increase the harvest effectiveness first. They know that because of the NYB they have to go slow, but keep sticking that toe in the door and laying the ground-work at every opportunity.

So as hunter numbers and efficiency continue to decline, I guess we can expect more and more of the bow season to be filled with guns and other more efficient weapons. Not really a surprise.

Well Doc, though you and I, and many others dont like it, one of DEC's jobs is to manage herd numbers. If deer arent being taken in the right amounts in certain areas, what do you propose they do about it? More DMPs? They probably are handing out a ton in those areas already. They cant increase hunter access. DMAPs and DDPs? Wait till you hear the hunter reaction to that lol. The only option left is to open the hunter's opportunities for that area up in a way that will be effective with the least number of people complaining about it.

Thanks Burmjohn the DEC amd I have been playing phone tag on this topic Thanks for clearing the one buck a year thing up, there is alot of miss  Information out there, with most of it coming from one origination.  With its own agenda. all i want are the facts without the BS. 

So what is being said here is what I have been hearing directly and 2nd hand from the DEC already. Basicly they have and still do think that bow season is an insufficient weapon for deer control and they want to install a precedent that allows them to slip in a gun season or two (muzzle-loader for now) at any time they feel a need to hack on the deer population. In other words bow season is to be used as the sacrificial time of the year where they can implement whatever weapons they deem necessary to get the job done.

I believe that this is the attitude that keeps this early muzzle loader season reappearing every so many years. It also explains why they have been dragging their feet on setting an October 1st opener for bow season. They wanted to wait until they were able to establish a few early gun seasons to increase the harvest effectiveness first. They know that because of the NYB they have to go slow, but keep sticking that toe in the door and laying the ground-work at every opportunity.

So as hunter numbers and efficiency continue to decline, I guess we can expect more and more of the bow season to be filled with guns and other more efficient weapons. Not really a surprise.

Very interesting so I thought I would throw some calculations your way.  Deer harvest on average past few years have averaged around 222000.  Of that 222000 15 % have been bow kills on average and 8.5% have been muzzleloader kills on average.  Seeing the current length of bow season versus muzzleloader season your statement would be hard to argue.  I do feel the DEC has a tough job on there hands.  I also wonder if Im the only guy that hunts in 6k and 7m that has seen a decline in number of deer sightings.  I know here at home I have had trail cameras out for atleast a month and all I have seen is a lone doe and a doe with 2 fawns and have several pictures.  Deer sign has diminished greatly in my area here and I can remember days of driving by Dougleston manner and counting 100 plus deer out in there fields and past few years if you see 3 out there.  A contribution of some harsh winters and an increasing coyote population has to be contributing to that but they did give out alot of doe permits for a few years in a row and with all the local guys including myself passing on younger bucks and taking does I think this proposal does will not only contribute to over populated areas but the DEC will be able to manage the underpopulated areas by regulating doe permits.  Now in 7m there a few camps around the area of mine and I do know that there was a few years in a row that between 4 camps that hunt the hill Im on between all of us we had received 43 doe permits each year and then throw the added either sex tag on to that number. ALso we are surrounded by thousands of acres of state land.  SO throw all those permits in as well.  So what happened in that particular area is the deer population got decimated.  Then the dec lowered doe permit availability to 1 tag with a medium chance.  The state hunters population dropped way way off as well.  Now the past 2 years we have seen a slow increase of deer numbers with alot more bigger class bucks.  I raised this because there might be areas in 7m for example that are private land and overpopulated.  So my point is how exacally does the DEC manage such areas and keep everyone happy.  Its impossible unless they break it down even further than just a WMU.  Now you take some other things into consideration as how many deer and lets say the city of Cortland for giggles and the urban deer population in it.  Urban deer numbers are increasing and the back 40 are decreasing.  This is going to be a never ending yoyo effect. With the funding and number of DEC employees decreasing I think we are goining to see some panic attemps at managing our wildlife coming our way to keep hunters happy.  With the gun season being the major percentage of deer kills they in my opinion will not mess with gun season very much as it has to be there greatest source of income so that leads manipulation of bow and muzzleloader seasons and of course the ever debated crossbow. 

wdswtr...God bless you for seeing the problem straight up...It has the possibility of leading to a real problem down the road...They are have a big problem managing on the whole....I can't see them fairing well with this suggested micro management.....

Larry please  the blame the NYBA thing ...not just from you...is getting old ...really...for one thing I know I picked up on that snaphoo ...right here on this site...and I have no affiliation with any organizations...just incase that thought floated through your mind

I thought the report was well written (and long overdue) and clearly described the challenges ahead of them.

Nonetheless, implementig the plan is another story.

God help them!

Larry please  the blame the NYBA thing ...not just from you...is getting old ...really...for one thing I know I picked up on that snaphoo ...right here on this site...and I have no affiliation with any organizations...just incase that thought floated through your mind

NYB isnt the only source of the misinformation. Certain members in the NYSCC are playing their part to make it look like DEC is proposing these things as well. The one I know of specifically has an agenda of his own, not necessarily the people he is supposed to be representing.

I never said it was NYBA

Well Doc, though you and I, and many others dont like it, one of DEC's jobs is to manage herd numbers. If deer arent being taken in the right amounts in certain areas, what do you propose they do about it? More DMPs? They probably are handing out a ton in those areas already. They cant increase hunter access. DMAPs and DDPs? Wait till you hear the hunter reaction to that lol. The only option left is to open the hunter's opportunities for that area up in a way that will be effective with the least number of people complaining about it.

My comment wasn't meant to argue the rightness or wrongness of what is going on, but rather to highlight and emphasize what I believe I see going on with the DEC's attitudes toward bow season. That was just in case anyone was missing the point that the DEC is involved in a bit of a hostile attitude toward bowhunting and perhaps is wishing it were not such a big deal in NYS. So any bowhunters who are feeling complacent or think that bowhunting has evolved into some kind of guaranteed right or enjoys the same level of protections that any of the gun seasons have, had better take a look at what is going on within the government organization that has the real control over this activity. Those that have a particular fondness for bowhunting had better keep an eye on what is happening and make their opposition heard. The nature of bowhunting is about to change and the actual negative impacts may be being led by the DEC itself.

Well Doc, though you and I, and many others dont like it, one of DEC's jobs is to manage herd numbers. If deer arent being taken in the right amounts in certain areas, what do you propose they do about it? More DMPs? They probably are handing out a ton in those areas already. They cant increase hunter access. DMAPs and DDPs? Wait till you hear the hunter reaction to that lol. The only option left is to open the hunter's opportunities for that area up in a way that will be effective with the least number of people complaining about it.

My comment wasn't meant to argue the rightness or wrongness of what is going on, but rather to highlight and emphasize what I believe I see going on with the DEC's attitudes toward bow season. That was just in case anyone was missing the point that the DEC is involved in a bit of a hostile attitude toward bowhunting and perhaps is wishing it were not such a big deal in NYS. So any bowhunters who are feeling complacent or think that bowhunting has evolved into some kind of guaranteed right or enjoys the same level of protections that any of the gun seasons have, had better take a look at what is going on within the government organization that has the real control over this activity. Those that have a particular fondness for bowhunting had better keep an eye on what is happening and make their opposition heard. The nature of bowhunting is about to change and the actual negative impacts may be being led by the DEC itself.

No, I knew what you said, I was just asking the question, what do you think should be done to up the effectiveness of hunting season without having to selectively expand gun seasons in areas that need the herd thinned out.

Personally, I do not want gun seasons expanded. As I have said before, I think they should be shortened or reconfigured to take some of the pressure off of the deer. I believe that could make the season more effective, because deer wouldnt be going into lock down mode for so long. The added bonus is that hunter satisfaction would possibly go up because more people are seeing more deer as a result of less pressure. Just an idea though. I kind of wanted to hear what ideas might be floating around in your mind about it.

Will Bow hunters still have the choice of either or tag Buck or doe? Or will that be taken away from the bow hunter and replaced by more DMP for all to apply for ?

Dave

so in high density areas...instead of sticking a 4 day gun season in bow in just those areas...why not have a earn a buck system for the bow hunter....this way your not causing the deer to go nocturnal lowering further the opportunity for bow hunters to do their part in lowering deer #'s?

Will Bow hunters still have the choice of either or tag Buck or doe? Or will that be taken away from the bow hunter and replaced by more DMP for all to apply for ?

Dave

Region 3 biologist was at Ulster County Federation meeting on Thursday night and re-iterated that this wasn't a one buck rule -- a tag will come with bow / muzzleloader license but it will be buck only as the direction is to move all antlerless harvest under the DMP system.

Will Bow hunters still have the choice of either or tag Buck or doe? Or will that be taken away from the bow hunter and replaced by more DMP for all to apply for ?

Dave

Region 3 biologist was at Ulster County Federation meeting on Thursday night and re-iterated that this wasn't a one buck rule -- a tag will come with bow / muzzleloader license but it will be buck only as the direction is to move all antlerless harvest under the DMP system.

From a fiscal point of view, this makes sense. If you want to have the opportunity to kill a doe,you will have to pay for a permit.

The problem for the DEC arises when their quota for doe permits is undersubscribed. Such a scenario may well affect bow and muzzleloader license sales.

We will see how this turns it.

How do they plan on handling the life times that were to get free DMP's as part of their license fee if they had purchased before a certain date?

Will Bow hunters still have the choice of either or tag Buck or doe? Or will that be taken away from the bow hunter and replaced by more DMP for all to apply for ?

Dave

You will have a buck tag and the ability to get a DMP, depending on availability. Thats what I take it to say.

How do they plan on handling the life times that were to get free DMP's as part of their license fee if they had purchased before a certain date?

More than likely, you just wouldnt have to pay to enter for the DMP. DMPs are just not guaranteed for anybody.

Think about it, people keep complaining that deer numbers are too low, and that too many does are being taken in some areas. The problem with the current system is, everyone with a bow/ml tag gets a DMP that is good anywhere, so its hard to restrict the number of does taken in a certain area. This move is not a fiscal one, its a move to gain more control over the doe take in each area.

so in high density areas...instead of sticking a 4 day gun season in bow in just those areas...why not have a earn a buck system for the bow hunter....this way your not causing the deer to go nocturnal lowering further the opportunity for bow hunters to do their part in lowering deer #'s?

So you make it so that you have to take a doe in that specific area in order to get a buck tag which would be good anywhere? Or would it be where you have to take a doe in that area to be able to take a buck in just that area? What about taking a buck anywhere else?

Im just trying to understand what exactly, you mean by this.

Will Bow hunters still have the choice of either or tag Buck or doe? Or will that be taken away from the bow hunter and replaced by more DMP for all to apply for ?

Dave

You will have a buck tag and the ability to get a DMP, depending on availability. Thats what I take it to say.

Let me see if I understand this, with my bow tag I will be able to take a buck but not a doe. Question does the AR apply to bow season like it will apply to gun season? With my bow tag will I have to have a buck with at least 3 pts on one side? Will they issue DMP for bow season or only have them available for gun season? Confused??

Dave

Will Bow hunters still have the choice of either or tag Buck or doe? Or will that be taken away from the bow hunter and replaced by more DMP for all to apply for ?

Dave

You will have a buck tag and the ability to get a DMP, depending on availability. Thats what I take it to say.

Let me see if I understand this, with my bow tag I will be able to take a buck but not a doe. Question does the AR apply to bow season like it will apply to gun season? With my bow tag will I have to have a buck with at least 3 pts on one side? Will they issue DMP for bow season or only have them available for gun season? Confused??

Dave

Im not confused, and I would say more than likely, yes, AR would apply to your buck tag if you are in an AR zone. Yes, you are correct that you will be able to take a buck only with that tag.

Will Bow hunters still have the choice of either or tag Buck or doe? Or will that be taken away from the bow hunter and replaced by more DMP for all to apply for ?

Dave

You will have a buck tag and the ability to get a DMP, depending on availability. Thats what I take it to say.

Let me see if I understand this, with my bow tag I will be able to take a buck but not a doe. Question does the AR apply to bow season like it will apply to gun season? With my bow tag will I have to have a buck with at least 3 pts on one side? Will they issue DMP for bow season or only have them available for gun season? Confused??

Dave

Im not confused, and I would say more than likely, yes, AR would apply to your buck tag if you are in an AR zone. Yes, you are correct that you will be able to take a buck only with that tag.

NYbuck, then this would be the end of being able to shoot a doe with the bow? How would they implement DMP in the future? Would you only be able to use a DMP if you were lucky enough to get one in either bow or gun season? I didn't mean you were confused I was.

Dave

How do they plan on handling the life times that were to get free DMP's as part of their license fee if they had purchased before a certain date?

More than likely, you just wouldnt have to pay to enter for the DMP. DMPs are just not guaranteed for anybody.

Think about it, people keep complaining that deer numbers are too low, and that too many does are being taken in some areas. The problem with the current system is, everyone with a bow/ml tag gets a DMP that is good anywhere, so its hard to restrict the number of does taken in a certain area. This move is not a fiscal one, its a move to gain more control over the doe take in each area.

I agree with your point when it comes to ML/Bow and the DEC's intent to control doe harvest in specific areas.It is sound management. What will upset many and perhaps cause them to forego applying/paying for a permit is that they are now in a lottery.

One of the benefits of purchasing a ml/bow license is that it is win win license for all who purchase such a license.

In recent years I have elected to forego  entering the lottery for a doe permit because I like my chances of killing a doe on either my ml or bow tag. For the past several years I have filled my ML tag. Besides, it really irked me that the DEC began charging for the opportunity to enter the lottery for doe permits.

Now you can call me cheap( like FAST Eddie), but the present system is a bargain. Why piss us off any further!