stubby68

Most birds killed by lead are not found. How is it known they were killed by lead if they were not found? Just asking because that makes it sound like we should assume that all dead Eagles got that way from lead. I mean if you cant find them you do not know they are even dead. How do we know for sure the ones that were found and proven to be deaths from lead got the lead from bullets? I am not saying lead is not poisonous,however it is natural and can be found in many things other then bullets.Lead has been being used for hunting for over 100 years. If lead from hunting is such a huge problem then for as long as it has been being used I would think there wouldnt be any birds left and we would all be brain dead.

I am sorry for that it was not my intention. I simply stated how I felt on the issue as others had. Knowing how this group is I should have known better then to state things the way I did. For that I am also sorry. I stepped out and sent pm hopeing it would go back to what it was intended. Some were fine with pm however there some couldnt stop dven after I stepped out.

As I said this will be my last response unless in a new thread. Dead where you found it. So you have no clue how the deer acted while you were sitting in your stand waiting. You have to go find them. So you do not see them take their last breath. Do you think they take that breath any different when an arrow is used then they do when it is a bullet? Shoot them in the head they do not get a last breath they get dead now.

I have stated on this and other threads I have experience to draw from. I hunted with bow for 16 years. I also have family and friends who hunt with a bow. If not slow then why do bow hunters wait before tracking the deer? It is because they have wait for the animal to bleed out or suffocate. No matter where you hit a deer with an arrow it takes time for it to die. First two deer I deer got with a gun were lung shot. Had to wait to die. After that all the rest have been head shot. They don't even kick from that. Can't get faster then that. No please this has been deraild long enough. I will comment on this no longer unless in a new thread.

Agree 100% that is why we should use the weapon which can deliver the quickest and fastest kill. Why make it worse then it has to be. Dead now is better then slowly bleeding or suffocating to death.

Actually I hunted with a bow for 16 years. Never had a season I did not get one. Some were nice bucks others not so nice and does. I have posted pics of some of the bucks I took in past posts. Some were gun some were bow. You mean to tell me the deer just tipped over. Showed no sign they were in trouble never even started kicking in desperation to stay alive? There seem to be a lot posts during bow season asking for help with a lost deer. How many times have there been posts of deer never found. I'm not saying they are not lost with guns, however they odds of dropping on in it's tracks are better with a gun then bow. Tell me those deer that were lost or tracked for sometimes miles were not suffering and in pain and afraid until they died. All because a weapon that has little to no chance of killing instantly was used because someone wanted a challenge. As hunters we are conservationist and as sch we should be trying to take the animal with a weapon that affords the animal the quickest kill, not the one that gives the most challenge for us. As for a gun shot causeing any concern for the deer, I have shot deer from a group only 50 yards away and the rest just stand there looking at the dead one. In fact I got a nice 10 point when he walked out of some tops and over to a doe I had just dropped. Now why is it that my dislike of bows is jealousy and your dislike of crossbows is not? The only thing I am jealous of is that bow hunters can be so much more self righteous then I. Now as I said in previous post this stuff is all things for another thread not to derail this one. This is suppose to be about crossbow use for everyone or for only those who are over 60. If you must then please start a new thread or bring it back to op.

No I can not say it will not affect harvest rates. A lot of areas I hunt are low in deer numbers as well. In those areas would be good to cut back on all hunting not just keep others out. In one of my areas we have a little over 400 acres. Deer numbers were low. the previous owners were big bow hunters so too much bang bang was not the problem. We stopped all bow hunting and cut back on hunting it with guns. Been 3 years now and we are seeing some improvement. Still no bow hunting and never will be, even crossbow. Last year 20150 gun season 3 weeks bow was 7 weeks. in 2014 gun was 4 weeks bow was 6. looks like 2016 will see a 3 week gun season and bow will be 1 day shy of 7 weeks. Like I said some years bow gains gun looses . Bow season use to start on the 15th that was changed to the 1st for an opener. That gave bows 2 more weeks. My point is do not cry about other hunters wanting more when bow hunters get more then they do. If tables were turned and gun had more then bow , you would want some of that. For the record I do not want bows or crossbows in the woods.And no I do not want to gun hunt that time of year. Anything that has no possibilty of killing an animal where it stands should not be used. Cutting a deer with a razor and letting run until it bleeds out is cruel in my book. That however is a point for another day. Stated this to show you i am not for crossbows. I am however against bow hunters alwasy trying to make this all about them.

How many times has a bow hunter said shorten gun season and make bow season longer? I will tell you too many to count. Was not too many years ago bow hunters got 2 weeks added to there season. They wanted it and got it. Gun hunters wanted more time as well but they didn't get it. Heck some years because of the way the dates fall gun hunters lose days and bow gains. Bet you don't have problem with that.

A Crossbow is no more primitive then a compound. Heck Crossbows were around before compounds, hundreds of years before. A flint lock in a lot of ways is as if not more primitive then a compound.So if it is suppose to be primitive then you would have no problem with flints then?

But, But it's in the numbers ,they give us the numbers. We should live by their numbers. Our boots on the ground observations can not compare to their sit at the desk and guess approach can it.

so so. But I'm hunting by the numbers and there not adding up.

35 is not minimum. The words are it is unlawful to use a bow with a draw weight of 35# or less which would make the minimum more then 35.

Doc, What is logical is to think that the season where they put the doe only weeks is the season they want the doe taken. They said we have a polpulatio in these areas lets look and see what can be done about this. First thing the did is look at deer take numbers. They then see that more doe are taken during gun season then during bow. They then thought bow is the longest season and takes the least amount of doe lets see if we can get more doe taken during bow season and see if that changes anything. Maybe they did Maybe they didnt but the conclusion was that the way to up the doe take during bow season was to put in a doe only period. Why should they have to specifacly say we want mor doe killed during bow season when the 2 week doe only season should say that with out words. If you tell your boss you want more money do you have to tell him it needs to go in your check or do you just assume he knows you want it in your check? Or should he give more money to another emploey and say I didnt know where you wanted the money to go so that is what I did with it? All this may be speculation yet it is more logical then screaming they are attacking bow hunting or they are trying to do away with bow hunting, or that they want bow hunters to handle all the population controll which is waht you and many others are yelling. That is compleat speculation on your part. No where did anyone say (DEC included that bow hunters need to do all the population controll. No where did anyone ( again even the dec) say that they wanted to do away with bow hunting. How ever the bow hunters are saying loud and clear that what the dec is trying will not work and that bow hunters will make sure it does not work. Why not shoot the does during bow season and then when they come up with the same number of dead doe for the year you can say see we were right same number were killed they just got spread out . Then you could honestly say they were wrong and you were right. Grow, You keep saying the Dec is black maleing you into shooting does yet your first paragraph is saying you would be fine with acyuall blackmale is it not. I mean you are saying you would be fine with them telling you shoot a doe or you can not have a buck tag. Or did I read that wrong? saying shoot a doe or no buck is more blackmale then 2 weeks doe only then have at it with a buck weather you got a doe or not. I do have a question I can not come up with an answer for. It has been said in here many times that early oct is too warm to shoot does yet bucks would still be shot. My question is does warm weather affect a dead doe more so then it affect a dead buck? I ask this only because when someone says ( which a lot have) I do not shoot doe in early bow because it is to warm so that is why I shoot bucks I can not figure out how warm temps would affect one more then another.

Doc, step back and look at it from another way. The Dec wants doe take persentages to be higher during bow seasons. As it stands right they are very low persentage of doe take during gun season is high. I know all the but there are more gun hunters then bow hunters crap but the numbers of hunters in each season does not matter when just looking at persentage. If the doe take in gun is 50% that means gun hunters are shooting does. If the doe take in bow is 20% there is room for improvement. Not as many doe can be taken during bow however there could be more taken with more effort. Are they attacking bow hunting as everyone sees it? or are they trying to bring the persentage up so they can preserve that time of year for bows? They could just be watching to see if bow hunters are willing to step up and shoot more does. If not there could be a doe only gun season in there future. Right now from all these comments it looks like the bow hunters are not willing. All the statements about not hunting the first 2 weeks or hunting some place where they can shoot bucks are not looking good for those persentages going up. They are looking for higher doe take in these period. I do not believe that most of the state has high deer numbers and actually most areas are low but that is only my thought and does not matter to this. When they started looking at the number of doe taken they saw that fewer doe were taken during bow season then possable could have been and saw that as a weak link they are trying to fix that link by mandatory 2 week doe only. Giveing hunters a choice was not working. Seeing all the hunters saying they are not partisapating in this looks like they will be going to the next step. If one employee is not doing the work load of others and you can not fire him right off the bat, do you have others do his work for him or do you give him the chance to do it before you bring in someone who can? Belo I looked st that survey. It does not show how many are shooting does during bow season when the dec wants the numbers up at that time of year this is important. Saying bow hunters shoot doe . As has been said most wait till gun season to shoot does. Now that makes them a gun hunter shooting a doe not a bow hunter. Yhe comments on here show that bow hunters want to kill bucks first then maybe does latter. You say a dead doe is a dead doe what does matter when. Well if the people running things say they want more doe shot at a certian time and it is not getting done they will and have done something to make this happen. This is exactly what they are seeing. Bow hunters not willing to take doe during bow season and the majority of doe being taken during gun. they would like to see more doe dropped during bow season. They know it will not be on par with gun yet the persentage could be better with a little effort. They put out a certian number of doe tags and expect to see them being used. They may not have a target number to hit for the bow hunters however they know the number they are seeing is low and are trying to bring that number up. Setting an exact number is not always good in work or hunting because people will hit that number and figure that is good enough and never do any more. How would you like it if your boss gave you a job to do, gave you guidelines on how to do it, but didn't tell you how to finish it or what he would be assessing you on? That's what they're doing. It's impossible to know how to prevent muzzleloaders in our season if the majority of our very small group of hunters already shoot doe and are told it's not enough. WHen your boss does this and you show that you can still do the job with limited info. He looks at you as an upper tier employee that can do the job with out needing a baby sitter. If you need to be told every little thing that needs to be done then you can not think for yourself. The dec gave 2 extra weeks to bow hunters a few years back. They sat back and siad lets see if this gives them more time to take some does. Didnt work everyone figured it was just moer time to take bucks. They said wiat a minuite there are high numbers of doe tags in these areas so we thought that maybe bow hunters would see this and say i have extra time and drop some does,without being told, but no they just useing it as more timg to kill bucks. Wow guess we have to think for them is what they said. When they give you the tools to do a job and you have to be told how to use them then there is a problem. If this was done during gun season the gun hunters would say ffine and go out and drop every doe they could not throw a fit and not hunt or hunt elsewhere. Give them everything you can not everything you are willing to and maybe they will get off your back.

Where is he saying that? Sounds like he is worried about the effect this could have on all bow hunters in the future. Regs like this not only effect the hunters in the areas they are impossed in they also have the potential to effect all hunters every where. Bow and Gun. When a 2 week doe only muzzy season is droped in oct you will see what he is talking about. It has been stated that a sept gun hunt for doe only would be a better way to get does taken. You guys are going crazy about haveing to wait 2 weeks to shoot a buck. There have also been complaints in the past of youth being able to hunt with a gun for 2 days during bow. I cant wait to see the reaction to a 2 week gun hunt in early oct or late sept. haveing guns in the woods before you get a chance at that buck will drive you all mad. The dec never said that bow hunters could bring doe numbers down to what they want but it would help if more bow hunters shot does. Show them that you can bring the take persentage up in early season and maybe these stupid regs will go away. heck if that had of been done in the past these regs might not have vere came to light. Bow hunters say they cant take enough does. Comments show u can just wont. His comment is saying try before worse things happen to youe bow season and on a larger season.

Funny how I am clueless yet I am the one who got out of bow hunting years ago because I could see where it was going. I also can not stand when you guys state how hard bow hunting is. I never saw it as hard and had lots of luck with bucks and does. I have posted pics of them in the past. As I have said I was a bow hunter do not try to tell me how much skill you need to do it. Expesially when I can go in the woods in my jeans and tee shirt and have deer walk withen feet of me without notice. I am alking bucks and does big and small. Hell one of the bucks I have posted, i believe it was he 8 point came in when i was at base of tree he let me stand draw and stick him. Not always that easy but deffently not as hard as you make it sound. I always find it funny that the only time I hear you guys say you shoot plenty of does is when you are called on it. You also say I shoot plenty of does but want my buck first. Then maybe if I have time I might take a doe. Or when you say it is too warm to kill a doe but i will kill a doe. Too warm for doe killing but fine for buck killing? do they require different temps. Confidance and skill to shoot at a live animal? That is like saying you get all excited when they come in close. I stopped getting excited about that stuff when I was 17. It is hunting they are animals I am out there to kill them. If one gets in where I take a shot it is nothing to get excited about that is what i am out there for and what I expect. Stop crying and live with the problem bow hunters have created for themselves. It will not be long before they put guns in october.

To think that nature can balance anything to our likeing is wrong. Nature will balance things to what fits her not what fits humans. When we talk about heard balance we are actually talking about what is exceptable to humans. People do not want deer eating there flowers or getting the road and hitting them with there car. Nature can only do so much when humans influance things as much as we do. That is why DEC uses hunters to balance things. I do not believe we have the over populations that they say we do. They are ststeing what humans say is too many not mother nature. When left alone nature will find a way and do just fine but in todays world humans influance and screw things up and nature can not cope. Some day nature wiil say enough is enough and I doubt ant of us want to be here for that.

Valid October 1 - September 30 Valid September 1 - August 31 Resident: $29 (small/big game) -or- $26 (small game only) $22 (residents, ages 16-69*) small game & big game included in the single hunting license this says small game big game are one license does it not? Also if I can not assume that all sportsmen and ss are bow hunters. How can we assume that any of the licenses sold are for hunting period. Maybe alot of guys do not mind the money. maybe 905 of the big gam licenses sold were to guys who only hunt fish but figured heck I know the money is going to a good cause so I will buy a hunting licenses even though I will never hunt. Yes many of you have said you do shoot does. That is why I said most. How ever does are last on you list and the dec wants them first. Most bow hunters worry too much about that big buck and not enough about management. Unless that management will get them a bigger buck. Try thinking this way. If you are willing to shoot doe. If you shot a big 10 point in the first 2 weeks and then still go out doe hunting how would feel if a huge record 12 point walks by. You can not shoot because you already shot a big yet smaller buck. You would have to let him walk because you have no tag. As it is now you see the buck and have to jus wait. Atleast you still have a tag and a chance to get him. If all hunters did not shoot because there might be a bigger one along latter then no deer would ever be shot. I have not said the dec is right in doing this or that there numbers are even close to correct. However every year they give us a number to shoot for. Yes I know they over issue those dmps how ever if you just go for the number the issue and not worry about what they will except for bottom line they will be happy. If your employer gives you exact numbers and says this is the low ball number I will expect most will always go for that low ball number and leave it at that. If they give you a high number and you end at a lower number then you might just hit the number they realy want. Not giveing them any numbers because you want thing differently rarely works out. as is the case bow hunters are faceing now.

Belo try this with your numbers. Bow stamps 46,944 add the 116k because the super sportsmen came with a bow stamp that means bow hunter bought them. That makes 162944 bow stamps. Bow stamps were bought by guys who boughtb the small big game and then had to buy the bow stamp to bow hunt so take 46944 off the number of big small game number that were bought for bow hunting. 103k minus 46,944 is 56,056 that would be gun hunters . no wya to know how many small big game were bought by guys who small game hunt only so the number used for deer could be much lower. we will stick with the 56,056. That makes 206,056 possable gun hunters. a difference of 43,112 that would be lower if you knew the number of smal big game used only for small game. not realy that big a difference when you look at all who hune in this state. Also did those numbers show out of state tags sold. That would chang things as well. could be closer could be further apart

I keep hearing there are not enough bow hunters to get the numbers down. You are right there aren't. Especially when they refuse to shoot does. No one can say this is false because this thread is full of guys and gals who have said they will either not hunt those 2 weeks or will hunt in an area that they can shoot bucks. The dec has seen over the years that the bow hunters are lower on the take of does then the bucks. At this point there is no way that enough does can be killed by bow hunters, however if you had been willing to take more does in years past then just maybe the numbers would not be so far out of wack. It is more of a punishment then an attack. Alot of people see bow hunters as buck hunters and that is exactly what all these comments are saying about you as well. NOT ALL BOW HUNTERS BUT MOST. Look back through the comments. You are saying I want to kill bucks and will not hunt if I have to hunt does. Or that you will just not hunt the areas that they want does taken in so you are doing just what they have been seeing you do for years and that is refuseing to kill does because you want racks. They are not takeing buck hunting away from you just saying you have to wait. It wasnt too long ago that bow season opened on the 15 so you are just going back to that date to hunt your presious bucks. In the last couple pages someone said that if I was told that I could not kill bucks I would get pissed. Wrong they can change my buck tag to a doe tag right now and it would not bother me at all. What would bother me is if they told me I could not use the tag I paid for. That is not what they are telling anyone they are saying use it for does. Early bow is the best time to take out those doe they want gone if bow hunters will not do it then lets switch seasons. Start gun season on oct 1 . Have a 2 week doe or make whole month of oct doe only and ony 15 days to get a buck. Then have bow season start on Nov 15 and let you guys kill what ever you want. Wounder how many guys would hunt with bow then. Very few I bet and the comment would be all about the bucks. I can see it now the gun hunters scared all the bucks away or they shot all the bucks. Truth is you want that early time to get you big buck and can not stand being told you have to wait or the thought of someone else possable getting it before you. Someone asked me if I hunt with a bow and that if I didnt then my opinion did not matter. No I do not hunt with a bow. As I have said before I use to bow hunt and have stated why I do not anymore. I also do not hunt in any of the areas that these regs effect. Neither of these things mean I have no problem with those regs. I think they are BS yet I believe they could have been avoided with a little more effort to take does in the past. All hunters opinions matter in this because even if they do not affect us all now it will not be long before they or other regs do. Phade you keep saying that bow hunters would be willing to kill more does if they gave a number on how many they want killed. You say they never give a number. You are wrong. They give you the numbers every year. When the issue DMPs the issue a set number for areas. If they are giving out 10,000 DMPs then that is there target number. If the issue 5.000 that is there number. When guys get these tags and do not use them because they do not want does killed or those tags are just not filled because of wanting to wait for that big buck then there number is not met. If they have 10,000 permits for an area and only 5,000 are filled then only half there goal was met. By not filling those tags a problem has arose. It is simple. shot the does they give you tags for and you will hit there goal. They are not going after the gun hunter because they have shown they are willing to kill more does then the bow hunter. Bow hunter take my not beable to be what guns is but it could be higher with a little affort. I'm not syaing put population controll on the shoulder of the bow hunter but if a little help was gotten from the bow hunter then it would not have gotten this far with the regs.

The DEC says that in these areas more does need to be shot. Maybe if bow hunters had been shooting does in years past then they would not have came up with these new regs. Do I agree with those regs? NO I believe we as hunter should have a choice as to what we shoot. I also believe that when they issue doe tags they should be used. We all know that many tags are gotten and never used. Why? Because the ones who got them do not believe in shooting does and get them in hopes of keeping them out of the hands of hunters who shoot does. Most ( not all ) but most bow hunters are out there for antlers. That is effident by all the coments in this thread saying they will not hunt those 2 weeks or even those going as far as saying they are considering stopping hunting all together. There also have been comments saying this is stupis because bow hunting is too ineffected to get the job done. Realy? Is it that bow hunters cant do it or wont? Sounding like they wont. I want my buck why cant I shoot a buck. cry cry cry. I know not all bow hunters are out there for just the rack but there are far more then those whoe take does. Effident of the fact that there is an over population in certian areas. Look at what weapon is most used in these over populated areas . Want it is bows. Look at the number of bucks taken over does. Which is greater? want to bet bucks? The crying is bad enough now. Cant wait to hear it all next year when they make a 2 week muzzy doe only season in october. When ever I say bow hunters are all about the rack I get attacked yet going back through this thread you will find many many comments complaining about not being able to shoot bucks and that they will not hunt those 2 weeks if they cant. If you are willing to shoot a doe at the end then then why is there a problem with shooting one in the begining. The dec knows that most of the ones saying they wait till the end to shoot the does are full of it. They will not shot any. They are only trying to get you bow hunters to shoot does. Something that letting you make that choice on is not been working. They are not telling you that you can not shoot a buck they are just saying because you havent been shooting does because all you want is a buck then you have to wait to shoot your buck. This is showing just which bow hunters are only in it for decorations and whic are in it for hunting. And for those saying I own my property and I will do what I want on it. News flash I nor anybody owns there property. We put a security deposite on it and pay rent (aka Taxes ) every year. If you truely think you own it then stop paying your rent and see what happens.

based on my experience the only reason they're dumping burden on bowhunters is because you can get them to shoot more than you could with a gun hunter. it was twisting someone's arm to ask a gun hunter to pull the trigger during the first couple weeks of gun season. it's prime time and they don't want to ruin their hunts with loud bangs and trampling through the woods just to get a doe. also they think that doe is better suited at the time for bait to lure a buck out of cover. this is the reasoning I got from them aside from the simple unwillingness to shoot a doe at all. I agree though.... putting the burden on bowhunters will have some but most definitely limited success. pressure to make harvest happen and putting the squeeze on a hunter during late season is also asking to fail. snow impedes access, deer are now on edge, it's cold, and effort is diminished from a long season away from family. Realy? Twisting gun hunters to shoot doe? I do not think so. I thiunk the DEC is finally seeing what I have seen for years even when I was a bow hunter. That would the fact that the majority of bow hunters are decorators and will not even consider shooting a doe. Gun hunters for the most part are meat hunters. The bow hunter crowed looking for trophies has risen and the number of gun hunters looking for meat has fallen. Areas manily gun hunting have less of a problem with too many does and areas with manily bow hunting have a huge problem with does. Just look at this forum we have two threds about the new regs and if you go through and read the posts most of them are saying but I might see that buck of a life time thats not fair. Go to other forums and you see the same thing. Maybe if the Bow hunters tried being hunters and not decorators this would not be happening. The proff are the posts in these threads that are saying we will not hunt in those doe only areas at all or the ones who say I'm not hunting untill the first two weeks are done. Talk about a statement that says we are buck killers only. I know you are thinking if this would happen to gun season then I would be complaining like the bow hunters are now. You would be wrong for all I care they can keep my buck tag and replace it with a doe tag. I bet if the DEC came out and said no buck hunting for all deer seasons for this year there would be a ton of guys and gals not even buying a lisences at all. I also would bet that the persentage of bow hunters steping out of hunting would dwarf the number of gun hunters that would. Ever think that the DEC might be trying to do away with bow hunting because they see it as usless? Why else would they be doing all of these things during bow season. Looks like they trying to drive bow hunters away does it not? No matter what they do they will never get bow hunters to kill more does unless they some how get does to grow antlers. Bow hunters call gun hunters the brown is down crowed because they say we will shoot anything no matter its age or size of rack so how can you say that getting a gun hunter to kill a doe is like twisting there arm?

put a new battery in your truck. Even if it is new or test shows that it is fine it could have a short in it. When that happens the computer that controlls everything will get wrong voltage and show faulty codes and make things run like crap. A short in battery will not show up in tests or a obd ll scan it will only show the codes of what it thinks is wrong. If this does not fix it then I would say you have a short in the wires going to the injector for number 7 cylinder. Sence this isnt a dodge it is fixable.

So turkey hunting really isn't your thing? A turkey is probably the smartest animal in the woods. What you are describing sometimes works in the fall good luck in the spring. No they are not deer if they were they would be easy to get. Spook a deer the run a short distance and stop to see what scared them. Spook a turkey it is gone. Turkey can remember calls and if you spook them or miss or they just feel something isn't right when comeing in they are gone and remember that call sound and will not even answer it and even if they are talking and hear that call they will shut up and leave.

These guys have been around for a couple weeks hopefully they still be there this weekend.