The Expanded Antler Restrictions - Who is excited?

[Skillet]

yea well I bet you text while you are poaching from the truck so thats double illegal! ha

So that was you watching me. I also like to dump my used oil in the woods. I do this all at night. Don't forget that I'm usually drunk too. I find that being tanked makes the shots more challenging, and it's a skill to hold a spotlight like that. Luckily, I tape it to the barrel, right next to the 2 liter full of cotton. I like to combine poaching trips with my trips to the meth lab / weed field, reducing vehicle pollution is everyone's responsibility.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Skillet

[burmjohn]

Or maybe you fella's are just wrong? nah couldn't be. lol

Nope, we aren't wrong. But AR's are not the end all be all, there many more pieces to the puzzle that the DEC needs to do in order to have a good deer management plan in place. AR's are better then doing nothing at all, especially in the area's it has already existed. The changes that have come as a result of the AR's are nothing short of amazing in 3H.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

So that was you watching me. I also like to dump my used oil in the woods. I do this all at night. Don't forget that I'm usually drunk too. I find that being tanked makes the shots more challenging, and it's a skill to hold a spotlight like that. Luckily, I tape it to the barrel, right next to the 2 liter full of cotton. I like to combine poaching trips with my trips to the meth lab / weed field, reducing vehicle pollution is everyone's responsibility.

Now I know you are just full of $hit. Everyone knows you fill the 2 liter with steel wool. NOT COTTON!!

[Culvercreek hunt club]

AR's are better then doing nothing at all, especially in the area's it has already existed. The changes that have come as a result of the AR's are nothing short of amazing in 3H.

I think I missed that paragraph. Gonna have to re read it...lol. Odd that they cave to the lobby groups like they have. Too bad that politics crawls and scratched it's way into everything.

[burmjohn]

I think I missed that paragraph. Gonna have to re read it...lol. Odd that they cave to the lobby groups like they have. Too bad that politics crawls and scratched it's way into everything.

Yeah it was conveniently left out. The article also states that the yearling buck take has dropped "state wide", and leave out that the reason for that drop is because of AR's. Example in 3H - 2006 Yearing Buck take was 50% of all bucks, 2011 it was 17.3%. The same / similar percentages are mirrored across all of the AR areas and the take is spread across 2.5's and 3.5+ now... Now we are seeing bigger more mature bucks and an age structure that is more representative what the area should have.

[ELMER J. FUDD]

Its not that confusing, the DEC and one biologist in particular is not for AR's and makes that quite apparent. Its a shame more research isnt done before posting these articles, I'd expect a little bit more from someone like that.

It seems the DEC needs to get their story straight. As for "more research", the first sentence says that "7 years of data have clarified several things" How much do you need? The article proves the good points of AR as well.

Out of all the posters here, I'd say Burmjohn, Fairgame, and one other that I can't recall are all genuinely seeing real improvements from AR. I value the experiences you guys share here. What I'm wondering is how much of the changes are from food plots?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Yeah it was conveniently left out. The article also states that the yearling buck take has dropped "state wide", and leave out that the reason for that drop is because of AR's. Example in 3H - 2006 Yearing Buck take was 50% of all bucks, 2011 it was 17.3%. The same / similar percentages are mirrored across all of the AR areas and the take is spread across 2.5's and 3.5+ now... Now we are seeing bigger more mature bucks and an age structure that is more representative what the area should have.

But they were talking about the state wide buck take. I think the point they were making is the take is going down even OUTSIDE of AR areas. In AR areas it has to go down.

[Doewhacker]

Too bad that politics crawls and scratched it's way into everything.

That is the scariest part for me, we are now allowing politics to make decisions reguarding hunting/conservation.

Did any one see how the head of the Cali DNR was pushed out for going on a Mountain Lion hunt in Idaho? It was all politics and had nothing to do with anything else. I see that type of silliness happening in NY before long.

[Doewhacker]

. I value the experiences you guys share here. What I'm wondering is how much of the changes are from food plots?

Or just the fact that hunting is changing acrossed the board, we are seeing a shift from the old ways to the new. As an example look at how many guys only sit in tree stands as their way of hunting, years ago it was still hunting and drives. Things are changing.

[burmjohn]

But they were talking about the state wide buck take. I think the point they were making is the take is going down even OUTSIDE of AR areas. In AR areas it has to go down.

Yeah I know, but if you look at the numbers, it hasn't gone down much if any elsewhere over time - the number flucate from year to year... Example 9Y 2010 was 70%, but in 2009 it was 50%... 6R 2009 was 65%, 2010 was 51%, 2011 was 60%(I just scanned through the numbers quick, so I could be off.)

[Doewhacker]

Yeah I know, but if you look at the numbers, it hasn't gone down much if any elsewhere over time - the number flucate from year to year... Example 9Y 2010 was 70%, but in 2009 it was 50%... 6R 2009 was 65%, 2010 was 51%, 2011 was 60%(I just scanned through the numbers quick, so I could be off.)

I don't think we can compare a 1.5 from one unit to a 1.5 in another. A 1.5 in one may well qualify under the 3 on a side rule meaning AR would do nothing to protect it.

[burmjohn]

I don't think we can compare a 1.5 from one unit to a 1.5 in another. A 1.5 in one may well qualify under the 3 on a side rule meaning AR would do nothing to protect it.

This is based on deer the DEC aged in person.

[Doewhacker]

This is based on deer the DEC aged in person.

Yup I know how they get their age's. What I'm saying is it doesn't mean much to compare your wmu to one in a different part of the state. A 1.5 in your and my area may be a spike typically and in other parts (like SteveB had said in his area) most 1.5's are 6's. What that means to me is 1.5 take percentages don't mean much outside of the AR zones.

[burmjohn]

Yup I know how they get their age's. What I'm saying is it doesn't mean much to compare your wmu to one in a different part of the state. A 1.5 in your and my area may be a spike typically and in other parts (like SteveB had said in his area) most 1.5's are 6's. What that means to me is 1.5 take percentages don't mean much outside of the AR zones.

But if they are examine the deer, a 1.5 is a 1.5 regardless of the number of points it has. Maybe I'm missing the point. But yes I agree other area's might have different situations where their 1.5 is a 6 pointer or whatever the case may be.

[Doewhacker]

But if they are examine the deer, a 1.5 is a 1.5 regardless of the number of points it has. Maybe I'm missing the point. But yes I agree other area's might have different situations where their 1.5 is a 6 pointer or whatever the case may be.

Yea I don't think I can explain it the way I want too today..lol

Edited August 10, 2012 by Doewhacker

[A Sportsman]

From my understanding of how the ARs were instituted, and I think NYAntler or someone correctly pointed this out about 12 pages ago, as the first group of WMUs were not selected through the politics of state government. it was a DEC decision to institute a pilot program.

The second grouping of WMUs, including my area (3A), came about as a bill through the state legislature. And in my opinion, this is where things went wrong. No doe permits are ever given out in 3A. Hunting pressure is relatively light considering the huge amounts of state land. In short, 3A didn't need AR, and i suspect maybe some of these other new AR WMUs may also not need it.

Regardless of the new rule and my distaste for it, I follow game rules and have to abide by it. My point is that the institution of ARs in 3A proves that this rule may start popping up in other areas across the state where it is likely unnecessary, to the dismay of many of the hunters there.

That said, I think areas with very high deer densities won;t see it. Reason being is whatever position the local hunters may have in those areas, the DEC is still charged with controlling the herd for other reasons, such as vehicular accidents, and crop damage. I suppose the DEC could do this by simply allowing more does to be killed. But doe permits are already plentiful in these areas. I'm not sure that printing more doe permits would result in more dead deer in those areas, when coupled with the AR rule.

[Meat Hunter]

I don't think we can compare a 1.5 from one unit to a 1.5 in another. A 1.5 in one may well qualify under the 3 on a side rule meaning AR would do nothing to protect it.

OK Once again- we are looking to protect an age class, yearling bucks, so that we get adults in the population. The only reason we talk about antler is because that is how we can determine the Age in a practical way.

That is why 3 points would not accomplish the goal of protecting yearling bucks in any area north and west of where the current AR area is excluding the Dacks.

Either 4 points on a side or more effective a spread restriction would be required. That is how yearlings would be protected and the harvest would shift to the 2.5 and 3.5 + bucks.

Here is a link. Look at the bottom there is a DEC map on the number of points to protect 67% of yearling bucks http://www.nyswmc.com/protecting-yearling-bucks/

Btw I spoke to some people in the AR area and they are seeing all kinds of bucks- Really big bucks all very happy. Out by john B a guy told me he saw 5 bucks together each one was bigger that the next.

[Meat Hunter]

ARs were instated by Regulation in 2005 and 2006. Then many sportsmen’s groups were promised them in the 7 new units if they did a list of tasks requested by the DEC. These tasks were done and then the DEC refused to go forward after the public comment. The real issue was changes at the top and retirements of quality staff. The women in charge wrote a memo to the commissioner that was all her personal opinion which no science or facts saying not to adopt it. As you would expect all the federations and sportsmen who had been working on this for years were pissed off. Then DEC staff told sportsmen and political representatives that it should be done legislative. So that the women in charge would not have to make a decision and could say it was not me. So in 2009 it was done by legislation in the southern part of 3A.

Then this year the DEC adopted AR by regulation in 3A and 7 other units. 67% of the hunters were in favor of ARs in those areas. And the majority of sportsmen are in favor in the whole state. I expect even those who yell and type their opposition to ARs on this and other sites will come around. I know folks that yelled bloody murder at the federation meetings who now say that they were wrong and that the ARs are great. It is unfortunate that we can not transport them in to the future of their hunting area once ARs were implemented. I guess this is growing pains. The conflict just is not necessary and that point of view is spreading.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Meat Hunter

[Culvercreek hunt club]

The conflict just is not necessary and that point of view is spreading.

I believe it is necessary when one group is trying to shove unwanted change down your throat.

The "bend over, grab your ankles and keep your mouth shut about it" just doesn't fly

Edited August 10, 2012 by Culvercreek hunt club

[Doewhacker]

Then this year the DEC adopted AR by regulation in 3A and 7 other units. 67% of the hunters were in favor of ARs in those areas. And the majority of sportsmen are in favor in the whole state.

Let me use your line.."Once again"...how many people took the survey's that you love to use the percentages from so much? and who did the state wide survey?

"That is why 3 points would not accomplish the goal of protecting yearling bucks in any area north and west of where the current AR area is excluding the Dacks"

That was kinda the point I was trying to make, it would have no effect or little anyway in those areas so why try to compare the percentages of 1.5's taken in different areas. Its apples to oranges.

[Meat Hunter]

I believe it is necessary when one group is trying to shove unwanted change down your throat.

The "bend over, grab your ankles and keep your mouth shut about it" just doesn't fly

So what you’re saying is that because you do not want it the majority of hunters should not have it either. Why should a small minority fight against better hunting for all hunters?

What I am saying is once you have it you will change your mind and realize that all this angst on your part was unnecessary.

What WMUs are you in and what WMUs do you hunt in?

[Meat Hunter]

Let me use your line.."Once again"...how many people took the survey's that you love to use the percentages from so much? and who did the state wide survey?

That was kinda the point I was trying to make, it would have no effect or little anyway in those areas so why try to compare the percentages of 1.5's taken in different areas. Its apples to oranges.

Well it makes sense to look at yearling buck harvest so that we know it is too high in that area and results in too few adult bucks to in the population. Yearling bucks are yearling bucks- the difference is that some areas produce larger yearling bucks. That is why the AR needs to be set by biologist for that area to protect the yearling bucks.

Still need to think about it in terms of protecting yearling bucks.

Let see the DEC and Cornell have done surveys in 2009, 2006 and 2010 and the NYS Conservation Council Survey 2007 all show that the majority of hunters in NY want yearling buck protection with antler restrictions.

[Doewhacker]

Do you just not want to tell every one how many people answered the survey that you base your majority on?

[Skillet]

So what you’re saying is that because you do not want it the majority of hunters should not have it either. Why should a small minority fight against better hunting for all hunters?

What I am saying is once you have it you will change your mind and realize that all this angst on your part was unnecessary.

What WMUs are you in and what WMUs do you hunt in?

Who are you to say that once we have it, we'll change our minds and see our errors? Sounds like you are trying to be some kind of parent figure placating a child. Don't act like you know what anybody else feels, or how they will react after AR is implemented. I don't believe for a second that a majority of hunters support AR. The DEC surveys are not a realistic cross - cut of NY hunters.

[nyantler]

Who are you to say that once we have it, we'll change our minds and see our errors? Sounds like you are trying to be some kind of parent figure placating a child. Don't act like you know what anybody else feels, or how they will react after AR is implemented. I don't believe for a second that a majority of hunters support AR. The DEC surveys are not a realistic cross - cut of NY hunters.

Of course you don't believe it.. because you don't want to.. you don't even know enough about it to make an educated decision... all you know is that you don't like the DEC telling you what to do... although they have been telling you what to do since you started hunting... they have already been telling you for years when you can take deer, where you can take deer, how many you can take, with what weapon you can take them with, etc. etc. Before any of these rules came into existence people with your thought process nearly eradicated the entire population of whitetails in NYS. I'm sure that's another thing you didn't know.

All he is saying is that there are hunters that should give it a good look before jumping the gun... Have you ever hunted in an AR area for any length of time? Have you taken any time to look at AR's and how they have worked all across the country? Is it that you just don't want to believe the hunters on here that have told you how it is working in their area? What is it about AR's that you don't like?