Moral Ecological Dilemma

[Elmo]

I've tried to be the most moral hunter I can be and do my best in conserving the ecology. Everything I hunt, I try to eat. If I do a poor job in preserving the meat or if the meat looks slightly suspicious to me, I'll let it go to waste but I never take it without any intentions of putting it to use. I do, however, hunt pest and vermin which I do no intent to consume to help balance nature. For example, I'll take a starling or a european sparrow because they're invasive species that has destroyed native blue songbird populations. In other words, I've always had a reason to take the life of an animal other than the pure enjoyment of taking an animals life.

What I'm having a clear justification for is our role as predator hunters. It seems like we're hunting pest, vermin, and even deer because one of the arguments we give is the fact that the natural predators (brown bears, wolves, mountain lions) have been eliminated by man and so hunters take the role as the predator to "thin out the herd" and "keeping the population under control" yet, we hunt the bobcats, coyotes, and mountain lions who's job was to do the very things we claim nature lacks. Basically we're saying we kill small game because there are not enough predators to control their population and then we turn around and kill the predators because they're killing all the small game. It's a contradiction.

I also have a hard time explaining the need to hunt the bigger, better buck. In nature, the predators takes out the weak which ensures that the species continues to evolve to be stronger and better but it seems the human predator has a negative effect in that we eliminate only the stronger specimens and ensure the weak survive.

Note: I ask these questions because I try to be a morally better hunter and to better define my role in nature. I enjoy all forms of hunting including predator hunting and I plan to continue to do so. The only thing I don't do is trophy hunt.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

You think you might be over analizing things just a bit?...lol. I hunt because I enjoy it. If there is a benefit (and there is) it is secondary. Our benefit is population controi. the contradiction exists becasue our population has grown and our existance has pocketed populations. The species that can survive and multiply in the pocketed environment are the ones that we help control the most.

That all said...why do I do it.....because they taste good and the ones I don't take from teh field as pests...taste good to the worms too.

[BizCT]

I hunt for the competitive sport between me and the animal in hopes of winning and adding that animal to my trophy room. I keep the backstraps but usually donate the rest of the deer to the needy.

My Dad and I got hooked on wolf hunting for example, because it is so difficult to specifically hunt them and be successful. I have 14 days without seeing one. My Dad had over 30 days before getting 2. Now he has them in his trophy room.

[SteveMcD]

Elmo.. I know how you feel. I never kill anything that is not intended for the table. As far as Hunting Bobcats, Coyotes, etc... I don't hunt or shoot them, I feel they have their rightful place. And by the way, it is a biological fact.. the more coyotes you kill, the greater their litter sizes are the next time. Many predators respond to hunting pressue by only increasing their own population. Coyote case in point, whether you hunt them, trap them or poison their dens they always bounce right back - they are here to stay. Knowing this I just let them be. And considering the majority of what they eat includes small mammals, they also keep the Deer Tick population in check. But, on the other hand, even with Predators sound game management is needed, for many reasons. We all have seen already, when Coyotes lose their fear of man, serious problems occur.

To me hunting never was and never can be a "competitve" sport. If you're hunting to compete against other hunters I feel sorry for you. If you think you are "competing" against the animals, you are mistaken. I'll just leave it at that.

Edited August 7, 2012 by SteveMcD

[First-light]

Elmo.. I know how you feel. I never kill anything that is not intended for the table. As far as Hunting Bobcats, Coyotes, etc... I don't hunt or shoot them, I feel they have their rightful place. And by the way, it is a biological fact.. the more coyotes you kill, the greater their litter sizes are the next time. Many predators respond to hunting pressue by only increasing their own population. Coyote case in point, whether you hunt them, trap them or poison their dens they always bounce right back - they are here to stay. Knowing this I just let them be. And considering the majority of what they eat includes small mammals, they also keep the Deer Tick population in check. But, on the other hand, even with Predators sound game management is needed, for many reasons. We all have seen already, when Coyotes lose their fear of man, serious problems occur.

To me hunting never was and never can be a "competitve" sport. If you're hunting to compete against other hunters I feel sorry for you. If you think you are "competing" against the animals, you are mistaken. I'll just leave it at that.

Well said Steve. We have more and more bear on my property every year. Do I want to shoot one, I don't know? They are getting a little close for comfort which may sway my thinking.

[BizCT]

To me hunting never was and never can be a "competitve" sport. If you're hunting to compete against other hunters I feel sorry for you. If you think you are "competing" against the animals, you are mistaken. I'll just leave it at that.

I am competiting against the animal. I am trying to outsmart the deer or lake trout.

The Lake Trout lets go of the baitfish when your using a regular rod and reel. I use a baitfeeder reel that automatically allows the trout to run with the bait, essentially tricking the fish. With the help of a fishfinder and proper hooks, etc my goal is to outsmart the trout.

If I walk into the woods after a long night of drinking in those same clothes, the deer smells me and never comes close enough for a shot. However, I wash my clothes non-scented, and wash my body non-scented, etc. Then instead of doing jumping jacks in the woods or screaming out "Come over here, Mr. Deer", I still as still as possible and watch an area I think deer will come out. Once again, my goal is to outsmart the deer.

Hunting and Fishing is all about strategy to me. Similar to my approach at the plate vs. a starting pitcher or my strategy vs the defensive coordinator in football.

[SteveMcD]

First-Light... when it comes to Bears I sit on the fence too. I have no desire to shoot one.However, as long as it is not a garbage dump bear, bear meat can be nothing short of superb. My kid brother makes the best "Teddy Burgers" in the world! And Bear Pot Roast is hard to beat!

[SteveMcD]

I am competiting against the animal. I am trying to outsmart the deer or lake trout.

The Lake Trout lets go of the baitfish when your using a regular rod and reel. I use a baitfeeder reel that automatically allows the trout to run with the bait, essentially tricking the fish. With the help of a fishfinder and proper hooks, etc my goal is to outsmart the trout.

If I walk into the woods after a long night of drinking in those same clothes, the deer smells me and never comes close enough for a shot. However, I wash my clothes non-scented, and wash my body non-scented, etc. Then instead of doing jumping jacks in the woods or screaming out "Come over here, Mr. Deer", I still as still as possible and watch an area I think deer will come out. Once again, my goal is to outsmart the deer.

Hunting and Fishing is all about strategy to me. Similar to my approach at the plate vs. a starting pitcher or my strategy vs the defensive coordinator in football.

I see. That makes sense to me now. .I get turned off by these "outdoor" tv shows that turn hunting into an out right team competition. This is not Football.

Edited August 7, 2012 by SteveMcD

[BizCT]

Nah, im not up against anyone but the animal. To me any buck is a good one, but I guess i'd feel differently if I lived where there were more bigger bucks. Hunting in Putnam County, I pass on spikes the first weekend, but after that, Im taking any buck I can get.

[Doc]

When it comes to such things as hunting coyotes, you have to remember that the coyote basically is at the top of his food chain in NYS. The only critter that is a predator of coyotes is humans. Other than hunters and disease, there is no other population check.

However, all that aside, it may be a mistake to consider hunting as having to fulfill some lofty goal in the greater scheme of things. I don't really justify my hunting in terms of some rigid code of morality. I don't demand that everything I kill has to wind up on my table. Shooting rats at the dump is not a food gathering exercise. I have no craving for eating crows, or woodchucks or a 40 pound black-meated, scungey carp. And yet I do hunt all those critters. I didn't run a trapline because I had a hankering to munch down a skunk tenderloin or a rack of fox spare-ribs.

So, there is nothing wrong with trying to keep some moral code involved in your hunting to a certain extent. But there also is nothing wrong with acknowledging that modern day humans are descended from predatory ancestors. We have a genetic pre-disposition to hunt, and it's not always about meat or fulfilling some function within the eco-system.

Some people might cringe at the semi-evil looking grin on my face as I tighten the squeeze on the trigger with a stinky old woodchuck in my crosshairs. But believe me it really doesn't make me a bad person.....lol.

[Dinsdale]

I've tried to be the most moral hunter I can be and do my best in conserving the ecology........The only thing I don't do is trophy hunt.

Don't look past the fact the trophy hunts often pay for the conservation of species in a larger context.

In most places of this world.........If it pays; it stays.

[Elmo]

I certainly don't want this thread to evolved into calling anyone out. I have a very "live and let live attitude." I'm simply trying to find more meaning for my own self so I can sleep better at night.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I was on thefence as a kid of 10 or 11 I guess. I had ssen my father hit a doe to far forward and her front feet went out, starting that blatt....(anyone know the one I mean? Right on par with tha rabit death squeal). I think I was 9 when I saw that. I sat out a year or two from going with Dad. Then aroung 10 or 11 our Scout troop took a trip to tug hill. strapped on the snowshoes and a DEC Officer took us on a hike to a death ground. Deer were laying in various stages of starvation. The population peaked, The food wasn't there and the winter was unusually harsh and long. There is a benefit and we do serve a good purpose but you also have to hae your head and heart into it. Not every person that tries to take up the sport can pull it off. Nothing to be a shamed of there.

[Gthphtm]

As I said in other posts I am not going to shoot a doe this year,The heard in my area is down very low due to too many doe permits given out in the past.A good thing is the 3 points on one side an inch or more.They did decrease the amount of permits(doe) in my area this year.Yotes,Fox,woodchucks and Bobcats are on my hit list this year.There are not any rabbits,the grouse are very rarely seen any more.There are very few turkeys if any near me, and woodchucks are out every morning and evening eating everything in there path.

[First-light]

First-Light... when it comes to Bears I sit on the fence too. I have no desire to shoot one.However, as long as it is not a garbage dump bear, bear meat can be nothing short of superb. My kid brother makes the best "Teddy Burgers" in the world! And Bear Pot Roast is hard to beat!

I'll keep that in mind. Thanks

[Dinsdale]

I certainly don't want this thread to evolved into calling anyone out.

On this forum?

Does that happen?

[Elmo]

On this forum?

Does that happen?

It'll happen...just don't blame me for it. It's like saying "I mean no disrespect but..." right before you diss someone.

[nyantler]

This is an interesting thread... I think Doc kind of hit it on the head for me... as far as the eating what you kill thing. I think a good hunter knows how to balance all the things that you fellas talk about... I never get to deep about any of it... I enjoy hunting, I like to eat wild game, I am very conscious of conservation and do my part to give back by doing the right things for the animal first and myself second... I try to remember that without the animals we hunt... there would be no hunting and we would not be having this conversation... Most of all I try to remember that there are way more important things in the world than hunting... family, friends, health, and happiness being a few of those things...

[Deerthug]

To me hunting is a balancing act between many different morals and ideals, from eating what I kill, with the exception of varmints and predators of course, to conservation, preservation, hunting ethics, and showing respect for all living creatures dead or alive. They all play a role on this earth and are part of the food chain with humans being at the top. Well most humans.... I also believe that hunting IS in fact a competition. Not in the sense of a football game but in the sense that I am competing with that elusive whitetail or gobbler - trying to outsmart them by using various methods to avoid detection. Lastly NY Antler hit it on the head too - there are more important things in my life than hunting, with my immediate family's health, happiness and safety being foremost on my list. Hunting is a fun, relaxing and stress relieving hobby which i could live without if necessary. Would i miss it? Of course. Would not being able to hunt kill me? No.

[Doc]

There are plenty of ways to justify hunting if it becomes important to you to do that. I have seen the results of over-population among deer, and believe me it wasn't a pretty sight. I have heard the death squeal of a rabbit that someone already mentioned. It's a pretty hideous sound as an owl or some other predator rips chunks of meat out of the critter. I have seen the results of a deer kill after dogs had run it to ground over a long distance, weakening it a bite at a time until it fell from blood loss. I would imagine that coyotes operate in the same way. I have put down a coon suffering from distemper, and a fox suffering from an extreme case of mange. These are all very agonizing ways to die and usually are quite slow to provide relief from a suffering death. All these things remind me that it truly is the lucky critter that dies by my bullet. Mother Nature's ways of disposing of the critters is not a very kind or gentle way. I suspect that none of them die peacefully in their bed from old age. Disney painted a pretty tranquil and innocent picture of the lives of animals living merrily in the wild, but that was pure fantasy as it was intended to be. The realities are much more harsh ..... everytime.

Whenever you get "hunter's remorse", just think about the alternate ways that your prey has of dying. That might help with any guilt feelings you might have.

Also when talking about the ethics and morality of hunting, I agree that you always should make every effort to provide as humane a death as possible. I think it is also important to use the animal in whatever way is practical when there is a practical use for it. But I don't rate any animal as unhuntable simply because I can't eat it. If I can eat it, that's a bonus.

What I don't do is to spend a lot of time anguishing over the fact that hunting usually means death as an end product. Hunting and the results of hunting simply inserts me into the natural cycle of life and death in the wild that is part of existance. And I see myself as one of the positive forces in that cycle.

[phade]

Hunting is different for everyone.

I hunt to kill. I hunt to acquire some quality meat. I hunt to relax. I hunt to challenge myself. I hunt to enjoy nature and see things others don't. I hunt to enjoy the comraderie of others. I hunt. Period.

[mike rossi]

Elmo,

At some point in history, hunters started defending hunting with ecological principles. At a latter point, after years of unsuccesful emotional arguments, the anti hunters started using ecological principals in their arguments. Both sides are biased, and both sides have incomplete knowledge. Fueled with passion and without a firm understanding, the debates go back and forth and the biology becomes convoluted. This is why you are struggling with contridictions.

[nyslowhand]

In my simple mind, I delineate killing and hunting by the reason I take an animal's life.

Killing (IMHO) involves taking any nuisance rodent, predator, etc with no intention of putting it on the dinner table.

Hunting is a form of a sport or hobby. It is done for many reasons, including but not limited to the enjoyment of the outdoors &/or nature.

I also link hunting to being a woodsman or stewardship of the wild animals I pursue.

That is studying the animals I hunt, the habitat and enjoying the harvesting of them regardless of choice of weapon.

Yeah, you may call that killing also, but I don't.

Here's a great example of this topics discussion.

Finally met a neighbor for the 1st time that we share a corner property boundary marker. He has ~100 acres of apple orchards, mostly fancy table varieties. He told me he annually gets the DEC nuisance or crop damage permits for deer. In his mind he is protecting his property and kills between 12-15 deer every year. I was initially shocked and had a hard time justifying what he was doing. Finally had to write it off as simply killing. I probably hunt the same local deer herd, but for different reasons and I call it hunting.

[wooly]

Interesting post!

I'm not exactly sure what gives some folks the idea that hunting is a competiton, or even a "sport" for that matter? Maybe it's simply the fact that any time you add a clock into the equation(season start and end dates), somebody always feels the need to get the upper hand to prevail the victor in the end....

We all know the anticipation and prepparation involved in this past time, and nobody wants to come out a "loser".

I suppose, no matter what the quarry, or what the intended use for it, there needs to be some way to measure success,.. or some prize to take home,.. or at least bragging rights to justify all the time and dedication we put into it.

I'm kinda on the same page with Elmo. I don't feel the need to harvest non edible game species although I've killed my share in my early years simply leaving many to rot. Nowadays, I get much more satisfaction out of observing these critters over killing them nowadays.., just because I can and they are purely beautifull to watch only sometimes.

IMO, there's plenty of fellas here into the varmint and predator hunting aspect to keep that a viable means of population control that doesn't demand my support to be an effective tool.

That said...Mother Nature always seems to find a way to balance things out on her own if we have a hand in it or not.

Make your own decisions that have no regrets and you can't go wrong!

[nyslowhand]

Agreed! I have a hard time defining exactly what hunting is; a sport, hobby, passion, obsession, pastime, .......

We've come a long ways since it was a part of survival. No one will starve if they don't have game in the freezer.

So whatever it has evolved into, just do it and enjoy it! You know why you love it, just don't over-analyze why you do it!

Start down that road & you'll come to the realization that venison actually costs ~$25/lb.