send letters for crossbows in NY

[Doc]

Huge number of gun hunters in NY only hunt the first 7 to 10 days.

The opportunity to hunt earlier in generally far better weather may be attractive to many and

effect a compromise. It is what Ohio does, and you can still hunt with your recurve, err compound, for 3 months without guns goining off and they manage the herd just fine.

Just a thought.

If you believe that, I've got a bridge ........

Just think about what you just said, and try to imagine convincing even a tiny portion of the gun hunters to buy into that. And don't try to compare to Ohio. Those hunters grew up with that arrangement. Nobody came along and tried to whack on their gun seasons to the extent suggested here.

Look, I come up with some pretty hair-brained management schemes myself, but there has to be some small amount of realism involved or it all amounts to nothing more than a fantasy. I believe that if you spend a couple minutes thinking about it, and then try to consider how you would implement this in a realistic manner, you will understand the kind of revolt you would have on your hands if you ever tried such a deal. A revolt not only among hunters but within the DEC as well.

Doc

[WNYBuckHunter]

See, SteveB gets it.

BTW, I knew that comment would get this thread going! 

[WNYBuckHunter]

Huge number of gun hunters in NY only hunt the first 7 to 10 days.

The opportunity to hunt earlier in generally far better weather may be attractive to many and

effect a compromise. It is what Ohio does, and you can still hunt with your recurve, err compound, for 3 months without guns goining off and they manage the herd just fine.

Just a thought.

If you believe that, I've got a bridge ........

Just think about what you just said, and try to imagine convincing even a tiny portion of the gun hunters to buy into that. And don't try to compare to Ohio. Those hunters grew up with that arrangement. Nobody came along and tried to whack on their gun seasons to the extent suggested here.

Look, I come up with some pretty hair-brained management schemes myself, but there has to be some small amount of realism involved or it all amounts to nothing more than a fantasy. I believe that if you spend a couple minutes thinking about it, and then try to consider how you would implement this in a realistic manner, you will understand the kind of revolt you would have on your hands if you ever tried such a deal. A revolt not only among hunters but within the DEC as well.

Doc

Are you saying that Ohio was always like that? With short gun seasons? Im almost sure at one point it was not, Ill have to look that up. Their season structure is realisitc, and it is pretty damn near perfection. The terrain is not all that different from NY with the exception of the Adaks, and the southern part of the state is a bit warmer than here.

[Doc]

Oh come on ..... you aren't seriously going to pursue that crazy argument are you? If you want to see how long they have had their present season structure go ahead and look it up. I'm just trying to inject a tiny bit of reality here based on what everybody knows about the NYS hunter attitudes, and the DEC attitudes. Why you or anybody would think that the gunhunters would tolerate having their season slashed to th extent you are talking is beyond me. And to think you could placate them with a crossbow alternative is simply ludicrous. Why don't you try it out on some NYSCC meetings and see if you get out of there alive ....... lol. I'm sorry to be so blunt with my criticism of your idea, but you do have to keep some perspective that includes some element of reality.

Doc

[WNYBuckHunter]

Doc, I have been putting this idea (not argument) forth for quite a while, I said it a multitude of times on the old Empire site, and its not the first mention of it here. I do think that most people are open to compromise, which is exactly what that season structure would be, compromise for everyone in the name of a better quality of experience. NY is no different than any other state in terms of hunter or DEC attitudes. I think that initially if that season structure was adopted, that some gun guys would be upset, and might not hunt for a year, but they would get over it for the most part, and when they discover the true joys of early and up close archery hunting (with a x-bow), they will get back on board. Maybe I just give people more credit than you, they arent all grumpy old men that cant see the forest through the trees. 

[steve863]

I for one would be totally against such a setup.  The gun hunters are pretty much the bread and butter of hunting licenses sold in NYS AND they kill the majority of the deer that the DEC wants killed.  To think that gun hunters would give up some of the gun season just so they could hunt earlier in October with something as ineffective in killing deer compared to a rifle or shotgun as a crossbow is really wishful thinking.  Absolutely NO way will it ever happen.  The DEC wants to sell licenses and gun hunters are the ones who buy most of them.  They won't be slapping the hands of those who butter their bread anytime soon, most especially since license sales across the board have been declining in recent years  Crossbows will never be an alternative for hard core gun hunters.  They would sooner be flocking into the woods during muzzleloader season, than stepping down to something way less effective as a crossbow.

[WNYBuckHunter]

You really believe that hunters would give up hunting? Im sorry, but other states that have short gun seasons and long archery seasons are proof that you are wrong.

[Chevy]

I know quite a few guys that are in favor for it, have written their letters and are planning on purchasing them once they are legal. Every single one of them is a bow hunter except one who cant bow hunt any longer due to shoulder problems.

Personally, I may end up getting one down the road, but not in the near future.

Please give me a reason I can believe that a bowhunter would convert to crossbow if it were legal?

Who said they would convert? Just add to the arsenal. All hunters dont go through life with blinders on. 

Yea right. You know a bunch of bow hunters that want to spend $1000 on a cross bow just to add it to their arsenal.

and that is their reason for support.  I just don't buy it.   

[steve863]

Why are so many already giving it up??  Most everyone who has hunted 20, 30 years or more will tell you that hunter numbers are nothing like they used to be.  I'm sure there are numerous reasons why hunters are hanging it up, but give gun hunters yet another reason and I can't see it helping matters.  There are quite a few gun hunters who don't bow hunt nor do they want to start.  I doubt crossbows will make them feel any more confident about trying to fling arrows at deer. 

[Doc]

Doc, I have been putting this idea (not argument) forth for quite a while, I said it a multitude of times on the old Empire site, and its not the first mention of it here. I do think that most people are open to compromise, which is exactly what that season structure would be, compromise for everyone in the name of a better quality of experience. NY is no different than any other state in terms of hunter or DEC attitudes. I think that initially if that season structure was adopted, that some gun guys would be upset, and might not hunt for a year, but they would get over it for the most part, and when they discover the true joys of early and up close archery hunting (with a x-bow), they will get back on board. Maybe I just give people more credit than you, they arent all grumpy old men that cant see the forest through the trees. 

Frankly, I don't even think I agree that the idea is any sort of improvement over the current structure, but perhaps after all this time, you should be at least forwarding your thoughts to the DEC, and maybe dropping into some gun club meetings, or checking with some NYSCC meetings or members, or planting the idea in some friends that are members of any of these kinds of organizations just to see what kinds of reactions you can get (always know the location of the nearest exit before bringing it up though). Maybe you can actually get someone who are members of some of these organizations to go along with the idea and try to put your thoughts into some kind of reality.

Everytime I have one of these brain-farts, I send it in to the DEC. In fact not too long ago they were all over the place soliciting these kinds of suggestions and begging the hunters for their thoughts on improvement. I sent them a bookful of things that I have been talking about on these forums. You may not have anymore luck at affecting change than I have, but at least there is some satisfaction in knowing that you didn't just sit on an idea witholding it from those that have the power to make it happen. We cover a lot of ground here on this forum and it's always good to use other hunters as sounding boards for our thoughts. but until these ideas actually reach someone who is in the driver's seat, a lot of those thoughts will simply never become reality.

Frankly, I'm not sure that what you are proposing is even a good idea or has any merit at all. Actually, I doubt it. But then I'm not the one that needs convincing.

Doc

[steve863]

Yea right. You know a bunch of bow hunters that want to spend $1000 on a cross bow just to add it to their arsenal.

and that is their reason for support.  I just don't buy it. 

There will be some, but I don't think it will be nearly as many as some assume.  Don't forget that many hunters out there just have to have something new, even if it's a totally useless POS.  A good many are in debt up to their eyeballs, but have to have the latest truck, ATV, gun, bow, you name it!!

[Doc]

You really believe that hunters would give up hunting? Im sorry, but other states that have short gun seasons and long archery seasons are proof that you are wrong.

I believe that such a change would be disasterous to hunter numbers. I am of the opinion that there are many hunters who are on the brink of quitting anyway, Such a slap-in-the-face as cranking license fees followed by hacking their season length and then given the insult of being told to make up the difference with a crossbow would most likely be the straw that breaks the camel's back. As I have written many times here, the signs are there that hunters are not as dedicated or enthusiastic as they were years ago. I see a lot of 1/2 day hunters or those that show up only for opening day. It won't take a lot to push them out.

What other states may or may not have done decades ago means nothing about our situation today. I think you would look long and hard before finding one state that has slashed their hunting seasons in the fashion that you are suggesting and most likely you simply would not find any at all. And of those few if any that you actually find, it most likely will turn out that such a change was done when hunting was in a much stronger, traditionally sound condition than today.

[Doewhacker]

I tend to agree with you on this Doc, even some of us that love hunting get real aggitated with NYS in general, enough so to consider bailing on NY. There is a long list of things about NY that piss alot of us off, and there may come a day when something pushes me off the edge to where I leave and never come back to NY. If I think that way there must be others that feel or do the same thing. Hence an ever dropping number of hunters. So my point is, who is to say hunters are just hanging up their guns and bows, maybe they are leaving to better ground???  I thnk the number of people leaving NYS is going to show us that...now I gotta go look that up.

[Doewhacker]

"The Empire State is being drained of an invaluable resource—people. From 2000 to 2008, in both absolute and relative terms, New York experienced the nation's largest loss of residents to other states—a net domestic migration outflow of over 1.5 million, or 8 percent of its population at the start of the decade."

There you have it.. we may not be losing just hunters, we are losing people from our state. Hey at least NY is number one!

[WNYBuckHunter]

I know quite a few guys that are in favor for it, have written their letters and are planning on purchasing them once they are legal. Every single one of them is a bow hunter except one who cant bow hunt any longer due to shoulder problems.

Personally, I may end up getting one down the road, but not in the near future.

Please give me a reason I can believe that a bowhunter would convert to crossbow if it were legal?

Who said they would convert? Just add to the arsenal. All hunters dont go through life with blinders on. 

Yea right. You know a bunch of bow hunters that want to spend $1000 on a cross bow just to add it to their arsenal.

and that is their reason for support.  I just don't buy it. 

You dont buy that people would welcome the choice to be able to hunt with a variety of weapons? Pretty short sighted of you and dead wrong, but believe what you want.

[WNYBuckHunter]

You really believe that hunters would give up hunting? Im sorry, but other states that have short gun seasons and long archery seasons are proof that you are wrong.

I believe that such a change would be disasterous to hunter numbers. I am of the opinion that there are many hunters who are on the brink of quitting anyway, Such a slap-in-the-face as cranking license fees followed by hacking their season length and then given the insult of being told to make up the difference with a crossbow would most likely be the straw that breaks the camel's back. As I have written many times here, the signs are there that hunters are not as dedicated or enthusiastic as they were years ago. I see a lot of 1/2 day hunters or those that show up only for opening day. It won't take a lot to push them out.

What other states may or may not have done decades ago means nothing about our situation today. I think you would look long and hard before finding one state that has slashed their hunting seasons in the fashion that you are suggesting and most likely you simply would not find any at all. And of those few if any that you actually find, it most likely will turn out that such a change was done when hunting was in a much stronger, traditionally sound condition than today.

Why would a shorter season push guys out that only hunt opening day or opening weekend?

You seriously think that 5 continuous weeks of gun season is good for the deer herd or hunters for that matter? You yourself always say how the deer go into hiding once the bullets start flying. What if you had a deer season where you actually saw deer instead of them spending most of it nocturnal? Im not talking huge racks and trophy deer, just better quality hunting overall. You dont think that once people see the improvements they are going to stay away? The biggest reason I hear for people to quit hunting is that they get sick of tag soup years and years in a row, followed by lack of hunting access. Now take a look at the complaints in NY, honestly, there are alot. Go look at Ohio forums and you wont see nearly as much. The hunter satisfaction in that state is a ton higher than here. There are solutions, you just need to take the leap.

[Doc]

You dont buy that people would welcome the choice to be able to hunt with a variety of weapons? Pretty short sighted of you and dead wrong, but believe what you want.

I don't know about the "variety of weapons" point, but there must be some appeal to the things. I hate to keep repeating the same point, but more than half of the participants in Ohio's bowseason now choose to hunt with a crossbow. That does not mean that the same thing will happen here, but it does indicate that a lot of people over there think there's some way that crossbows have some advantages over compounds and other bows. No one should under-estimate the potential impacts that crossbows can have on bowseasons. I just think that the impacts are not going to be immediate, but will take a few years to have the full effect felt. Even in Ohio, it didn't all happen over-night.

Doc

[WNYBuckHunter]

"The Empire State is being drained of an invaluable resource—people. From 2000 to 2008, in both absolute and relative terms, New York experienced the nation's largest loss of residents to other states—a net domestic migration outflow of over 1.5 million, or 8 percent of its population at the start of the decade."

There you have it.. we may not be losing just hunters, we are losing people from our state. Hey at least NY is number one!

Exactly why we should do something to try and keep some of them around, dont you think?

[solon]

ROFLMAO - cut the gun season shorter ??? Go into a sportsmens club and propose that one. You might want to wear a kevlar vest for that conversation

[steve863]

Doe, I'm sure that has something to do with hunter numbers, but in general I think the older hunters are dying out and the lack of interest in hunting by young people is what is effecting hunter numbers most of all.  Add to it the lack of private land available, poor economy, and people having to work longer hours than ever.  Lots of things going against hunting right now.  NYS is far from perfect, but I still think it's one of the most beautiful and diverse states in the nation.  We have it all here, the sea, beaches, mountains, flat farm land, lakes, and the most famous city in the world.  If times are tough here, I can't imagine them being too much better in other states.  If I lose my job in this state, I somehow feel that I would eventually find another.  In most other places it wouldn't be as easy and probably mean relocating again completely.

[WNYBuckHunter]

You dont buy that people would welcome the choice to be able to hunt with a variety of weapons? Pretty short sighted of you and dead wrong, but believe what you want.

I don't know about the "variety of weapons" point, but there must be some appeal to the things. I hate to keep repeating the same point, but more than half of the participants in Ohio's bowseason now choose to hunt with a crossbow. That does not mean that the same thing will happen here, but it does indicate that a lot of people over there think there's some way that crossbows have some advantages over compounds and other bows. No one should under-estimate the potential impacts that crossbows can have on bowseasons. I just think that the impacts are not going to be immediate, but will take a few years to have the full effect felt. Even in Ohio, it didn't all happen over-night.

Doc

The largest reason why these guys want crossbows is to use them in archery only areas during gun season. At least thats what they have said to me. The other reason is just to be able to use a futuristic fancy 1% let off compound bow or a crossbow depending on what they feel like using. Another reason I hear from some of the older guys I know is that they will be able to stay archery hunting longer.

[WNYBuckHunter]

ROFLMAO - cut the gun season shorter ??? Go into a sportsmens club and propose that one. You might want to wear a kevlar vest for that conversation

That sounds like a reasonable reaction to an idea other than what you agree with.  :

[Doewhacker]

http://www.empirecenter.org/pb/2009/10/empirestateexodus102709.cfm

I agree steve, NY is vastly different and that is what is great. But as you read through that report it gives the reasons people are leaving and compares NY to other states. Basically the same reasons you give, lack of land access (developement), cost of living, taxes...Its not like this in other states. I'm not saying the grass is greener, just easier to buy. My wife and I are lucky she works in healthcare, I myself in food in a healthcare environment, we can go just about any where and get a job. It can be very tempting to leave at times, but we don't. I do daydream though....wouldn't it be nice to wake up and have a long list of animals to hunt for the day....aahhh someday

[Chevy]

I know quite a few guys that are in favor for it, have written their letters and are planning on purchasing them once they are legal. Every single one of them is a bow hunter except one who cant bow hunt any longer due to shoulder problems.

Personally, I may end up getting one down the road, but not in the near future.

Please give me a reason I can believe that a bowhunter would convert to crossbow if it were legal?

Who said they would convert? Just add to the arsenal. All hunters dont go through life with blinders on. 

Yea right. You know a bunch of bow hunters that want to spend $1000 on a cross bow just to add it to their arsenal.

and that is their reason for support.  I just don't buy it. 

You dont buy that people would welcome the choice to be able to hunt with a variety of weapons? Pretty short sighted of you and dead wrong, but believe what you want.

You keep selling that snake oil.

[WNYBuckHunter]

What snake oil? Bottom line is, you dont believe that anyone thinks differently from you and that maybe, just maybe, you have it all wrong. Its ok, we all know that you are just one of the most stubborn hunters in the state.  ;D