send letters for crossbows in NY

[SteveB]

I notice you haven't addressed my point of x-guns increasing "bowhunter" success rates to the point where the seasons are shortened... 

Because your point is simply another emotional guess and opinion (which you say are worthless) until you post some stat's backing it up from states that have similar conditions as NY and have allowed the crossbow in all archery seaons.

I'm not sure I see your point Steve.  I'm not taking exception to your assertion that ground blinds provide an unfair advantage (there's that "opinion" thing again) because it's not the issue.  If you're correct, and ground blinds are having as detrimental an effect on the season as x-guns will, why on Earth would you champion to have yet another detriment in archery season?

My point is, being against something soley on the basis it might have an unproven advantage (remember no opinion or emotion) while accepting hunting methods that allow the similar alleged advantage is plain hypocritical. Demonstrate to us how positioning for a shot with a crossbow when the deer doesn't walk to the exact spot (think shooting to the right or behind a tree with a bow needing some 18" horizontal clearance) would be any easier to not get busted then drawing a compound with <10 lbs holding wght.

[wztirem]

My OPINION is that crossbows don't belong in archery season for one main reason - they remove the single biggest challenge that most of us face: drawing on an approaching animal. 

In that case, I am sure that you support getting rid of shoot thru ground blinds and tree stands.

Both extremeley effective methods to hide the draw. Might add any bow with letoff also - greater the let off, the easier to draw and hold while the deers head is hidden and wait for the shot.

All this arguing makes me yearn for the simpler days when bows were whittled from Osage orange and mulberry saplings. Arrows were wooden,fletched with turkey feathers, bow strings were made of sinew and broad heads were flint knapped. Ah, those were the days.

[TheHunter]

I notice you haven't addressed my point of x-guns increasing "bowhunter" success rates to the point where the seasons are shortened... 

Because your point is simply another emotional guess and opinion (which you say are worthless) until you post some stat's backing it up from states that have similar conditions as NY and have allowed the crossbow in all archery seaons.

I'm not sure I see your point Steve.  I'm not taking exception to your assertion that ground blinds provide an unfair advantage (there's that "opinion" thing again) because it's not the issue.  If you're correct, and ground blinds are having as detrimental an effect on the season as x-guns will, why on Earth would you champion to have yet another detriment in archery season?

My point is, being against something soley on the basis it might have an unproven advantage (remember no opinion or emotion) while accepting hunting methods that allow the similar alleged advantage is plain hypocritical. Demonstrate to us how positioning for a shot with a crossbow when the deer doesn't walk to the exact spot (think shooting to the right or behind a tree with a bow needing some 18" horizontal clearance) would be any easier to not get busted then drawing a compound with <10 lbs holding wght.

Even though there is a CLEAR advantage with a crossbow, whether you choose to acknowledge this is your issue.  In addition, the direct result will be more people in the woods.  And as a result there will have to be a change to the archery season if the cross bow is allowed in it. 

Regards

- Captain Obvious

[Upstater]

Because your point is simply another emotional guess and opinion (which you say are worthless) until you post some stat's backing it up from states that have similar conditions as NY and have allowed the crossbow in all archery seaons.

Because these arguments are (as I said earlier) pointless and circular, this will be my last post on the subject.  I only chimed in to begin with because I appreciate the efforts of Doc and the others who "get it" and care about the integrity of archery season as opposed to the "gimme something else to kill deer with anytime I want to" crowd.

You, like your big tent brethren, are not an archery hunter, nor a bowhunter, but an opportunist.  Gun hunter, bow hunter, rock thrower, whatever it takes to kill a deer, dagnabbit it's my right.  Hell, the day somebody mentions a neat attachment for the front of that quad you probably ride to your ground blind for running 'em down you'll be the first one yelling for it.  After all, it's all about giving you opportunities right?

Now there's really nothing wrong with being an opportunist, but let's call a spade a spade here.  Many of these arguments have a purely philosophical base - us stupid backwoods bowhunters believe that archery season is about bowhunting, and you opportunists see it as simply more hunting time that you don't have access to YET with whatever weapon you choose because, well just because!  The world's full of opportunists, so why should hunting be any different right?  Thankfully, the small majority of true bowhunters out there (like myself) "get it." 

You also repeatedly fail to address any of my salient points, i.e. why you continue to fight for something like x-guns to be included in archery season, but refuse to do anything to fight the dreaded ground blind, which, according to you, is every bit the threat to the season as x-guns are.  Could it be that you really don't care so much about the dreaded ground blind and are more concerned with just getting more for YOU?  Naw...

The problem with statistics these days is that people on both sides of an issue like to distort facts to suit their agenda (just look at the current political situation as an example).  You're probably thrilled with the Dems and Odumbo too, but that's another topic.    You yourself have even set the argument up to be a win-win for you - no matter what I might present, your "similar conditions as NY" qualifier leaves the door open for you to poo-poo anything offered.  However, the lurkers bored enough to follow along get that the only conditions that are germane are deer, bows, and x-guns.  Anything else is a distraction. 

As I said, for the sake of giving the lurkers something to consider, here is an excerpt from an article in the Pgh Post Gazette where their outdoor writer did some research on the subject: 

Ohio: Crossbows have been legal since 1976. During the  2001-2002 season, the success rate of an estimated 88,000 vertical bow  hunters was 19.8 percent, while the success rate of 106,000 crossbow  hunters was 22.7 percent. In 2003-2004, 29,397 deer were taken with  crossbows and 21,167 were taken with vertical equipment. During the  2004-2005 harvest, crossbow hunters accounted for 33,175 kills, vertical  archers took 24,023 deer. In 2006-2007, hunters killed 237,316 deer:  firearms 112,260, combined archery 67,912, bonus deer gun season 24,982,  statewide muzzleloader 22,871, youth gun season 8,315, misc. 976. It's  estimated that 30 percent of vertical archers also use crossbows.

I won't comment on the above, since anyone who got this far can certainly read.  I also won't comment on your rebuttal, which surely will be some drivel either written by or commissioned by a crossbow manufacturer.  The lurkers get my point as assuredly as you won't Steve.

My point is, being against something soley on the basis it might have an unproven advantage (remember no opinion or emotion) while accepting hunting methods that allow the similar alleged advantage is plain hypocritical.

No Steve, your point is you want more time to hunt with as many weapons as possible.  We get that.  There is nothing alleged about the increased success rates of x-gun shooters.  As I said earlier, if you really had a problem with any current hunting practices, and you had any principles, you'd be fighting them - not fighting to further destroy the season.  Your motivations are clear, in spite of the straw man arguments you present.

Demonstrate to us how positioning for a shot with a crossbow when the deer doesn't walk to the exact spot (think shooting to the right or behind a tree with a bow needing some 18" horizontal clearance) would be any easier to not get busted then drawing a compound with <10 lbs holding wght.

Bowhunter or opportunist?  I rest my case... a real bowhunter would never say something so utterly foolish.

Hunt safe Steve, don't throw your back out loading that x-gun onto your quad. 

[wztirem]

As a lifelong bow-hunter, hunting primarily with a recurve, you perhaps neglected to include archers who use compound bows as "opportunist also! Lets be fair, just a reminder.

[burmjohn]

Perhaps, I guess it depends on your age and how you were introduced to the sport. I was introduced with a compound 16 years ago.

[SteveB]

You, like your big tent brethren, are not an archery hunter, nor a bowhunter, but an opportunist

Hunting the bowseason with a recurve does not make me an archery hunter because I support the right's of others to hunt with a crossbow or even a compound?

Many of these arguments have a purely philosophical base - us stupid backwoods bowhunters believe that archery season is about bowhunting, and you opportunists see it as simply more hunting time that you don't have access to YET with whatever weapon you choose because, well just because! 

Again, I choose a recurve - what do you use?

You also repeatedly fail to address any of my salient points, i.e. why you continue to fight for something like x-guns to be included in archery season, but refuse to do anything to fight the dreaded ground blind, which, according to you, is every bit the threat to the season as x-guns are.  Could it be that you really don't care so much about the dreaded ground blind and are more concerned with just getting more for YOU?

Have no idea what a x-gun is. I do support the inclusion of archery weapons that are over 2400 years old. I even support those like the compound that are only 40 years old.

No Steve, your point is you want more time to hunt with as many weapons as possible.  We get that.

You claim to read but don't have a clue. Again, I hunt the bowseason with a real bow with a history of 1000's of years. I use an inline for regular season and mz. I have no personal need for anything else.

Thanks for including the Oh stats - if you go back to the start of them allowing the crossbow, you will find the bowseason has increased in size allowing all bowhunters regardless of weapon choice more opportunity. They even had to add a few days to the gun seasoon last year because the bowhunters aren't getting it done for management. You posted proof that adding crossbow did nothing in Oh to shorten the season as you claim has to happen.

Bowhunter or opportunist?  I rest my case... a real bowhunter would never say something so utterly foolish.

Hunt safe Steve, don't throw your back out loading that x-gun onto your quad.

Apparently it is  you have never bowhunted or you would know that deer don't pose in the spot you have picked for them. My back will be fine - as least as far as lifting a crossbow I don't have or have any plans for. But I do hope you are careful in all that self back slapping you are doing.

I won't comment on the above, since anyone who got this far can certainly read.  I also won't comment on your rebuttal, which surely will be some drivel either written by or commissioned by a crossbow manufacturer.

In otherwords, you have no factual rebutals and will quit. That usually happens when all you have is emotion and unsupported opinion - something the lurkers will certainely see threw easily.

Trying to continualy  twist my support of allowing others their choice of archery equipment even though I have zero interest in using one clearly shows you are dealing with the guilt of your selfishness - poorly. Only someone so self centered as you appear could not see there are those that

might support a cause for the good of others.

[Chevy]

Yes Upstater, the opportunists sense the door to the archery season has been cracked open and they are trying to take advantage with the crossgun.  Something that strikes me as odd are that the three main proponents of the crossgun on this thread "claim" they would never use one but their posts take up half of this thread. I suspect they are not truely bowhunters, but opportunists. One opportunist actually claims the compound bow does not belong in archery season but still wants to further degrade the archery season with crossbows. Why would that be unless underneath it all they are just an opportunist trying to take advantage.

 

[SteveB]

Hey Chevy - how is that project going where you where going to identify and back up your claim I have a hidden agenda? Seeing as I have no idea what is is, I really need your astute help in finding it.

Oh and just to help you get it straight, I do not claim the the compound device should not be in the bow season or do I want it moved. I simply point out if a modern compound bow is allowed, there is zero reason for the crossbow to not be allowed as well.

I either meant to ask or have asked you why you choose to shoot and hunt with a compound.

Care to share why that is your choice rather then a recurve or longbow?

Thanks for helping.

[Chevy]

Its how I was brought up. I started bowhunting in the late 80's and recall my bowhunting education course at Sal's in Webster where we all practiced using a compound. My first bow was a compound and I never knew any different.  Are you telling me I have been doing something wrong all these years  or that I'm less of a hunter somehow?

[burmjohn]

Its how I was brought up. I started bowhunting in the late 80's and recall my bowhunting education course at Sal's in Webster where we all practiced using a compound. My first bow was a compound and I never knew any different.  Are you telling me I have been doing something wrong all these years  or that I'm less of a hunter somehow?

Same goes for me...

[Doc]

Its how I was brought up. I started bowhunting in the late 80's and recall my bowhunting education course at Sal's in Webster where we all practiced using a compound. My first bow was a compound and I never knew any different.  Are you telling me I have been doing something wrong all these years  or that I'm less of a hunter somehow?

Not me. I started out with a recurve. I was there when the compound controversy occurred. I was one that argued for the compound. I was one who laughed at those old fuddy-duddys when they predicted that the compund would be used as a precedent for unlimited inclusions into bow seasons.

I wish to offer my apologies for not being smart enough to recognize the exact truth in what they predicted back then. They were absolutely correct as the compound is indeed being used as a precedent for the inclusion of the crossbows into bowseason. You hear that in every crossbow debate, don't you? Now, we have to wonder what weapons the crossbow will serve as a precedent for. It seems to me that with its crossbred design that is somewhere between a bow and a gun, we can look forward to the basic definition of bowhunting to be forever altered. There really is no limit anymore is there?

[WNYBuckHunter]

As a member pointed out, there are scopes available for the "crossbows" that enable you to shoot accurately up to 80 yards consistently.  Why for the love of god would you want to pollute the archery season with these is beyond me.  Again I respect the disabled, would have no issue at all with anyone who can not use a bow to use the crossbow in any season.

For the few that posted replies to my comments attack so violently as if I am taking something away from them.  And one intelligent member said most of these guys that are against it are going to be the first to run out and buy one.  Thats so far from the truth its not even funny.  I have a right to oppose the crossbow as much as you have the right to push it, so please get a grip.

Go ahead an oppose it all you want, but your skewing of facts and outright misinformation is going to attract the attention of those of us that know its BS. Crossbows are accurate out to 80+ yards, in perfect conditions, shot by well practiced shooters. They are not good for over 40ish yards in a hunting situation 95+% of the time. The same can be said for compound and recurve bows. Whats your point?

[WNYBuckHunter]

one even said.."I haven't read a good reason yet not to allow crossbows during archery"........translate: you don't agree with anyone....you certainly aren't judge and jury here, so get off the pedestal.

Yes, I did say that, and still stand by it, as the anti-arguments are still all the same emotionally charged, factless opinions of those that dont want more people in the woods, a higher success rate (how exactly is that a bad thing again?), or are misinformed that crossbows are somehow able to shoot an arrow accurately at double the distance of a compound in a hunting situation. I have never said I was judge or jury, just that I have an opinion on the matter, and my opinion is based on facts, not emotions. Maybe you ought to take your own advice, because like others have said, your post seems to belong in another controversial thread on the board. 

Oh, and there are plenty of guys I agree with.

[SteveB]

Are you telling me I have been doing something wrong all these years  or that I'm less of a hunter somehow

I never even hinted at that. I am always curious about the equipment those who say they don't want bowhunting to be easier choose.

I'm sure you know now there are bows called compounds and recurves.

Those choosing to learn more about archery and it's greater challanges might take a look at them.

That is the equipment that the bowseasons where started with.

[burmjohn]

SteveB,

Whether you realize it or not, your giving off the attitude that since you shoot recurve you are somehow better or more experienced or something (I can't think of the right word).  Regardless, as Chevy said, your dealing with a generation including me, at 32, almost 33 years old that has never shot a recurve.  The first thing introduced to me was a compound.  So bringing up points about releases, sights, stabilizers means nothing in your arguments for crossbows (for me).  I had the same feeling the Chevy had as if your trying to attack those who shoot compounds just to get your pro crossbow opinion across.

I respect your views on trying to push crossbows through.  I am on the fence, I think that the DEC will have to do some adjusting if crossbows are allowed in the archery season.  Things will need to change, as by shown in other states the success rates of crossbows are higher then those using regular bows.  Just as we have seen the DMP's decrease this year, they will need to adjust either season lengths and or remove the "Either Sex" or "Anterless" tags that we have now for use in Bow because of the increase take as a result of adding crossbows into the season.  In addition to the those that may choose to switch over to a crossbow for archery season, there will, with out doubt be an increase in hunters in the woods which will have a direct effect on the number of deer taken which goes back to my previous point of changing the archery season. 

It is what it is, if it ends up in bow, there will be changes coming for all bow hunters.  Maybe not immediately, but it will happen.

[solon]

o

factless opinions of those that dont want more people in the woods, a higher success rate (how exactly is that a bad thing again?),

there are countless threads about no DMP's because the herd is low

there are countless threads of hunters seeing less deer

so, from that wny has deduced the herd needs to be thinned more ?

pull that "trigger" more doesn't equate to better herd...

[TheHunter]

Excellent points Solon + Burmjohn, you both could not have said it better.  Change will happen if they decide to allow the crossbow in to the archery season.  And, it won't be a positive thing for us bow hunters, I'll leave it at that.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Do you guys think that DMPs are going to stay the same? Ever? Of course they arent. The DEC dishs them out according to what they believe the deer herd needs to be thinned down to. Some years they hand out alot, some they dont. It just so happens that we are coming off of one of the largest gluts of DMPs ever issued. I can understand why some guys will be nervous about other guys possibly being successful, then they might not have as many tags to fill. Change happens, its inevitable, but what type of change do we want? Hunter numbers to continue to dwindle, or should something be done to at least try and get those numbers to slow their downward spiral? I dont know 100% if crossbows will be the answer, and they wont be the whole answer, but they probably will be part of it. There are other states that have implemented them very successfully, NY can do it as well.

[Doewhacker]

I'm kinda surprised that some of the strictly gun hunters have not picked up on the fact that they will affected too. There will be less DMP's, and possibly their season could be changed drastically too.

[Chevy]

I'm kinda surprised that some of the strictly gun hunters have not picked up on the fact that they will affected too. There will be less DMP's, and possibly their season could be changed drastically too.

Correct. DMP's will be less for gunhunters, more pressure in the archery woods means more nocturnal deer at the start of gun season, plus less deer available to the gun hunter since the archery take will likely double (look at Ohio) if the crossgun is allowed in archery season.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Hey Chevy, how did the harvest increase in PA last year when crossbows were introduced? Did it double like you predict? How was the harvest in OH before crossbows were introduced? You know, just to make your guesstimate valid through the use of facts. 

[SteveB]

John - again that has not been my intent.

Busy day - will try to explain in more depth later.

I will say that less then 4 years ago, I felt as strongly against crossbows as

anyone here. Thanks for keeping it civil and letting your thoughts be known.

This medium often makes it easy to have intent misread.

[wztirem]

Hey Chevy, how did the harvest increase in PA last year when crossbows were introduced? Did it double like you predict? How was the harvest in OH before crossbows were introduced? You know, just to make your guesstimate valid through the use of facts. 

Crossbow effect is a subject of debate - LancasterOnline.com Sports

Jun 13, 2010 ... Call it the crossbow effect.Three states — Pennsylvania, New Jersey ... 14 archery deer season; by anyone age 12 and older hunting in Zone 3 ...

articles.lancasteronline.com/local/4/259222 - Cached

[WNYBuckHunter]

Thanks for the link, just what I thought.