AR question

[nyantler]

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I totally understand what you are saying. I also under stand the need to make sure of the points. you guys are just totally besides yourselves wonder why on earth anyone would oppose the AR's.. THese are some of the issues why peopl won't sign on. We have a guy on this thread basically saying if you can't tell how many points is on a deer you are equal to the guy shooting a baby in a crib? You are an unsafe hunter if you cna't tell how many points it had? I think it is all bull$hit to be honest and if you are taking these approaches to try to win support ...good luck with that. These threads and the views and attitudes of many of the AR supporters is just why it will have to be shoved down NY huinters throats on a statewide basis. and kind of reinforces in my head why I am pissing up a rope to focus on education in QDMA.

yeah I can see your point.. there are some that have trouble getting their point across without purposely offending others... me personally..I am not trying to win support for AR's... that comes with hunters understanding more about their true objective not the one that has been manufactured by those that think the DEC is managing for trophies. I merely point out what I believe to be misinformation or weak arguments against AR's... I just honestly don't see the huge problem with counting 3 pts on a side.. if I saw a "good" argument then I might embrace it, but i have yet to see one that doesn't involve a hunters selfish motive or even a valid argument to why AR's are bad for the whitetail in NY.

It is a mistake to think that QDM is the same thing as the current AR's going on in NY... it is not the same. QDM is a total herd management plan.. AR's in NY are simply a way to reduce the number of yearling bucks harvested giving them a chance to reach maturity... and definitely doesn't even come close to trophy management. I think a good argument against AR's would be something that explains why protecting yearling bucks is bad for hunting or deer management... not "because I'm a meat hunter". I will always hold the position that if AR's are simply for creating trophy bucks then they are a bad idea... although that might be the motive of some misinformed QDM supporters... I don't believe that is why the DEC is entertaining the idea of AR's here in NY and I will continue to support any idea that protects yearling bucks.

Edited September 25, 2012 by nyantler

[Doc]

My point was that if you don't know what you are shooting at then you have no business being in the woods with a gun.

And of course, knowing what you are shooting at has absolutely nothing to do with counting points. I certainly know a deer is a deer even if I cannot make out the details of his point allocation or whether all three points are really on the same beam, or for that matter, whether he has any points at all.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Joe,

If the DEC is not doing it to grow bigger buck to sup[ort an expressed desire then why are they doing it in their view? They keep expressing in their report that they se no biologic benefit to them. If you take the biologice benefit out what is left except growing bigger bucks?

I agree the QDM is not thought of it was originally designed to be but in reality the average Joe (no pun intended) doesn't have the means to participate in the entire program. I believe the majority of hunters either hunt on state land or private property they do not own and therefore can't modify for habitat improvement. That is where I think participation in organizations Like QDMA may fit in. But my involvement in this is still early so the jury is still out for me.

Now the burr in my side. I see guys that don't want it as tagged as "brown and down' 'bambi killers' 'meat hunters' and more. and I see most of them admitt they are and that horns are not a priority for them. Very rarely do I see hunters in favor of AR admit it is bout bigger hors for them. They come up with every excuse as to why they are for it but just like an addict they can't admitt they have a problem...lol,. If a hunter says straight up to me "I wan't it becasue I want it to be easier for me to shoot a bigger racked buk" I can respect that. I still am not going to agree to restrict other hunters that don't have that goal to feed the addiction but I can respect the honesty. The other BS window dressing I have no use for.

[burmjohn]

.lol,. If a hunter says straight up to me "I wan't it becasue I want it to be easier for me to shoot a bigger racked buk" I can respect that. I still am not going to agree to restrict other hunters that don't have that goal to feed the addiction but I can respect the honesty. The other BS window dressing I have no use for.

It doesn't make it easier. However, those bigger bucks now exist when they did not before. At least we are actually seeing some bigger, more mature, older deer on the trail camera's and hearing reports of some 3.5 and 4.5+'s in the area where that simply did not exist a few years back.

[BornToHunt]

The number of points a deer has has nothing to do with safety. Thats not the point i am trying to make.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

It doesn't make it easier. However, those bigger bucks now exist when they did not before. At least we are actually seeing some bigger, more mature, older deer on the trail camera's and hearing reports of some 3.5 and 4.5+'s in the area where that simply did not exist a few years back.

You are wrong John. By definition if the number of the quarry increases it IS easier. and those 3.5's and 4.5's and even 5.5's DID exist in every WMU prior to AR's That is a fact and a guarantee. They were taken, just not in the quantity that the huntes wanted.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

The number of points a deer has has nothing to do with safety. Thats not the point i am trying to make.

You were the one that said if you can't tell then you are unsafe 9I am paraphrasing, but it is supported by your posts) Why not take a fresh start and tell us what you do mean. Everyone gets tangled up and crisscrossed in these threads. I get that you support AR's, There are also hunters that don't. It speaks to priorities in my book and that is neither good or bad, just different priorities. Those that favor of AR are no better hunters than the ones that don't, they are no safer hunters, no better stewarts of conservation and visa versa. It is about letting others enjoy the sport and defining their own success not defining it for them. (within legal limits).

[nyantler]

Joe,

If the DEC is not doing it to grow bigger buck to sup[ort an expressed desire then why are they doing it in their view? They keep expressing in their report that they se no biologic benefit to them. If you take the biologice benefit out what is left except growing bigger bucks?

I agree the QDM is not thought of it was originally designed to be but in reality the average Joe (no pun intended) doesn't have the means to participate in the entire program. I believe the majority of hunters either hunt on state land or private property they do not own and therefore can't modify for habitat improvement. That is where I think participation in organizations Like QDMA may fit in. But my involvement in this is still early so the jury is still out for me.

Now the burr in my side. I see guys that don't want it as tagged as "brown and down' 'bambi killers' 'meat hunters' and more. and I see most of them admitt they are and that horns are not a priority for them. Very rarely do I see hunters in favor of AR admit it is bout bigger hors for them. They come up with every excuse as to why they are for it but just like an addict they can't admitt they have a problem...lol,. If a hunter says straight up to me "I wan't it becasue I want it to be easier for me to shoot a bigger racked buk" I can respect that. I still am not going to agree to restrict other hunters that don't have that goal to feed the addiction but I can respect the honesty. The other BS window dressing I have no use for.

I agree there are too many hunters that are for AR's because of the bigger bucks.. I am not one of them... I can kill a big buck without AR's.. I'm more concerned about having a wider variety of age classes.. and for the record.. the DEC's statement about there being no biological need for AR's is true... yearling bucks are sexually mature and can breed so whitetail populations can be maintained without older bucks... but if you ask them further if there is a benefit to having a more diverse age structure among bucks in the herd they will tell you yes... they know age structure is very beneficial to a deer herd.. they are just saying that there is no necessity at this point to worry that the deer herd is in any danger biologically... which doesn't mean that it isn't a good idea to try to optimize age structure or buck:doe ratios that are healthier for a natural herd. Protecting yerlings allows them to physically (not sexually) mature... young bucks are like teenagers.. biologists equate a yearling buck to a 13 year old human male.. sexually mature, but not fully grown physically.. if they are doing all the breeding, then they are not getting the nutrition and are using up valuable resources needed to build themselves physically to survive to maturity even if hunters aren't killing them.. I could go on about all the raesons why young bucks should be protected... but please read some of the material that is available on the subject and you will get why I am in favor of a better age structure.. I am sorry to say that many hunters refuse to find out why protecting them is important because that is not important to them.. they are only concerned with selfish motives that have nothing to do with conservation or anything beneficial to the animal... they just want to kill a deer so they can puff their chest and show what a man they are... they have little regard really for the animal that makes them feel so much like a "man".

As for QDMA.. they cater to those that want to manage property for bigger whitetails... although they are for healthier herds.. most of what they do is rapped around growing bigger bucks... which is fine if thats what you want to do with your property. The reason NY picked the zones they picked for AR's is because of the huge yearling buck takes coming from those areas.. they also were seeing lower body weights and a large number of spike horn bucks... which is primarily the product of bad buck:doe ratios and young bucks not becoming physically mature because they have become the primary breeder in the herd. AR's in NY have little to do with QDM or the QDMA.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Joe, they resorted to AR becasue they could not legislate restraint...lol.

[Doc]

they are only concerned with selfish motives that have nothing to do with conservation or anything beneficial to the animal... they just want to kill a deer so they can puff their chest and show what a man they are... they have little regard really for the animal that makes them feel so much like a "man".

See this is what makes you and others your own worst enemies in AR discussions. You invest a lot of common sense, pro AR arguments and then can't seem to resist throwing zingers like what is shown above. That term "selfish" is one of the most randomly thrown around words on this forum, and I got to tell you it does absolutely nothing but firmly entrench those that you are trying to persuade.

[covert]

I want bucks that are dumber than a bag of hammers with big ol' racks and teeny-tiny bodies that I can fit in my backpack for easier transport, and I want to hunt them in October with my revolver.

[nyantler]

Joe, they resorted to AR becasue they could not legislate restraint...lol.

That is quite possibly true

[nyantler]

See this is what makes you and others your own worst enemies in AR discussions. You invest a lot of common sense, pro AR arguments and then can't seem to resist throwing zingers like what is shown above. That term "selfish" is one of the most randomly thrown around words on this forum, and I got to tell you it does absolutely nothing but firmly entrench those that you are trying to persuade.

Not trying to persuade... don't care that anyone is offended by my statement... the truth is the truth... Those that are entrenched will be there regardless of any good argument for AR's...show me one argument that gives one good reason why AR's are bad for NY whitetails... there isn't one on this thread or any on this forum... all the arguments have to do with something that the hunter feels is limiting his ability to kill his buck. That is a selfish argument and has nothing to do with why AR's are bad for their intended objective which is to protect yearling bucks. You can call my comment based on personal observation anything you like, but it doesn't make it any less true. Sometimes the truth hurts.

Edited September 26, 2012 by nyantler

[Doc]

Not trying to persuade... don't care that anyone is offended by my statement... the truth is the truth... Those that are entrenched will be there regardless of any good argument for AR's...show me one argument that gives one good reason why AR's are bad for NY whitetails... there isn't one on this thread or any on this forum... all the arguments have to do with something that the hunter feels is limiting his ability to kill his buck. That is a selfish argument and has nothing to do with why AR's are bad for their intended objective which is to protect yearling bucks. You can call my comment based on personal observation anything you like, but it doesn't make it any less true. Sometimes the truth hurts.

No, I am just saying that people turn off whatever point you are trying to get across when you start that accusatory stuff. At that point, it all stops being a discussion. You might just as well stop typing, because all you are doing is preaching to the choir and nobody else is listening anymore.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

No, I am just saying that people turn off whatever point you are trying to get across when you start that accusatory stuff. At that point, it all stops being a discussion. You might just as well stop typing, because all you are doing is preaching to the choir and nobody else is listening anymore.

Wrong answer doc!! The ones that matter are listening. If you are that bad of a hunter that you cant see points on a rack you might want to think about a farm hunt!!!! What a joke! Most bucks come walking throught the woods and if you know what your doing as a hunter, ie..Waiting for a clear shot,Knowing what your taget and behind is.ect.ect....God go back and take a class. You must be one of the ones that i hear every year...Bang,Bang,Bang,Bang...Run over..Oh did i hit him..I know i saw white...Man i hope he has 3 points..I,m pretty sure he did...What a joke.

Oh sorry, Didnt mean to jump in on your post!!!

Edited September 26, 2012 by Four Season Whitetails

[Doc]

Wrong answer doc!! The ones that matter are listening. If you are that bad of a hunter that you cant see points on a rack you might want to think about a farm hunt!!!! What a joke! Most bucks come walking throught the woods and if you know what your doing as a hunter, ie..Waiting for a clear shot,Knowing what your taget and behind is.ect.ect....God go back and take a class. You must be one of the ones that i hear every year...Bang,Bang,Bang,Bang...Run over..Oh did i hit him..I know i saw white...Man i hope he has 3 points..I,m pretty sure he did...What a joke.

There ..... do you feel better now .... ha-ha. Have your little tantrum and get it out of your system.

What the hell has happened to you? You are starting to really slip over the edge, big-time. You're all over this site, flipping out and going berserk. Take it easy there guy. It's only an internet forum.

[nyantler]

No, I am just saying that people turn off whatever point you are trying to get across when you start that accusatory stuff. At that point, it all stops being a discussion. You might just as well stop typing, because all you are doing is preaching to the choir and nobody else is listening anymore.

Probably so.. but those individuals are looking for a point to turn off anyway because they no longer have anything to bring to the discussion. Most of them refuse to educate themselves on the subject and instead spout misinformation or, in some cases, just make up something that has no basis in truth or fact.

Edited September 26, 2012 by nyantler

[Four Season Whitetail's]

There ..... do you feel better now .... ha-ha. Have your little tantrum and get it out of your system.

What the hell has happened to you? You are starting to really slip over the edge, big-time. You're all over this site, flipping out and going berserk. Take it easy there guy. It's only an internet forum.

I agree...Maybe you should take your own advice and stick with the dog you have in yur fight!!

[Doc]

Probably so.. but those individuals are looking for a point to turn off anyway because they no longer have anything to bring to the discussion. Most of them refuse to educate themselves on the subject and instead spout misinformation or, in some cases, just make up something that has no basis in truth or fact.

You sure are painting with a pretty broad brush there. You're making a lot of assumptions about people who read these forum messages.

[Doc]

I agree...Maybe you should take your own advice and stick with the dog you have in yur fight!!

I don't have a dog, and I don't have a fight.....lol.

[Doewhacker]

Probably so.. but those individuals are looking for a point to turn off anyway because they no longer have anything to bring to the discussion. Most of them refuse to educate themselves on the subject and instead spout misinformation or, in some cases, just make up something that has no basis in truth or fact.

No different than what you do in every AR thread Joe, I know, I know, DEC is wrong because you don't agree with them.

[Meat Hunter]

On the original question: it is an illegal deer so it can be up to $2500 and the other info that was posted in the beginning. In reality it is about a $500 fine, never heard of one as low as 250. Most of the tickets are written as an add on to other crimes like baiting, jacking, shooting from motor vehicle.

Was just at the bow shop and everyone is showing off the PICs they have of the bucks in the AR area. Big and one guy had five nice bucks all on film at the time.

It is no longer a question of whether Yearling Buck Protection with Antler Restrictions works. YBP/AR are proven to work in NY and 22 other states. Come on over and take a drive around.

BTW I heard a ECO giving a presentation say that ARs make deer hunting safer because hunters need to make sure of what they are shooting at and that verification helps to make sure that it is a deer and a safe shot before pulling the trigger.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

On the original question: it is an illegal deer so it can be up to $2500 and the other info that was posted in the beginning. In reality it is about a $500 fine, never heard of one as low as 250. Most of the tickets are written as an add on to other crimes like baiting, jacking, shooting from motor vehicle.

Was just at the bow shop and everyone is showing off the PICs they have of the bucks in the AR area. Big and one guy had five nice bucks all on film at the time.

It is no longer a question of whether Yearling Buck Protection with Antler Restrictions works. YBP/AR are proven to work in NY and 22 other states. Come on over and take a drive around.

BTW I heard a ECO giving a presentation say that ARs make deer hunting safer because hunters need to make sure of what they are shooting at and that verification helps to make sure that it is a deer and a safe shot before pulling the trigger.

I think very few would dispute that AR's would grow a large racked deer population. I think the point of contention is at what cost? Personal preference seems to be very important to many and having a choice to take a deer. There are guys on this forum that have said it has made a huge difference and ones that are not reporting the same results. I think it boils down to what is important to the individual hunter that decides which side of the fence they are standing on.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Culvercreek hunt club

[BizCT]

There are some lands in 3N that have AR's, not all of them. The ones that day don't allow you to shoot a buck on the first 2 days of the season. I heard they put big 10pt decoys and when hunters shoot them, they arrest you.

[steve863]

It is no longer a question of whether Yearling Buck Protection with Antler Restrictions works. YBP/AR are proven to work in NY and 22 other states. Come on over and take a drive around.

Please provide us with some unbiased proof that it's been a success? Just YOU saying it holds very little water. And is this success measured from a hunters point of view, or are there actual proven benefits for the herd?? I have found mighty little data to back your statement that AR's have "proven to work". You want them and like them, so for you they are working, but show us some unbiased studies to try to make the rest of us believers? Good luck!

P.S. Please don't bother posting any jibberish from QDMA or similar organizations, for they are surely NOT unbiased.