solution to antler restrictions

[TheHunter]

Scot, the thing is, even though a majority of us hunters wish to implement or practice AR that we don't have the right as majority to impose it on other hunters.  Even though the world rules by majority.  Its how we elect officials, presidents and  put laws into effect.  Its what makes the world turn.  Some how rules are OK for everything else that effects our daily lives, even when its comes down to something as simple as fishing.  There is a reason why you have to throw back the fish that doesn't meet the criteria.  In AR area's as you know, there is a reason for not shooting the 1.5's.  They get to live, reproduce and survive another year, and potentially grow and mature.  How that is a bad thing is beyond me, as in the area I hunt and from what others that are in AR areas have expressed here they have not only seen bigger bucks they have seen more legal bucks to shoot.  So the argument that it deters "first time" hunters from the sport seems like quite a week argument. And the expectation that a first time hunter to shoot a buck is ridiculous, I went over 4 years before harvesting my first buck as a hunter.  1/2 of my family lives and hunts in PA, some of these family members were against AR at first, but after a few years they realized that it not only more mature bucks, a great hunting experience, and a greater opportunity of harvesting a buck as well.  I understand all ends of the arguments, I was also on that other side, until I saw the results.  I respect everyones opinion, I am not bashing anyone, and I am only speaking from first hand experience and what I see.  Let them go, let them grow.

Agreed, same goes for us.

[dszymo]

One last post on this topic I started. The main point i was trying to make was would fellow hunters support the idea of designating 1 area in each county (public land) for hunters to practice AR. I think most of you would not even be affected and those that want it would have an oppurtunity to hunt a place that has some sort of AR guidelines.

Also all of you guys that say trophy hunting would sway non hunters to look at hunting in a bad light. Well I guess all those mid west states and Penn should be in big trouble with the general public because they have had AR in place for years.. I think that argument is BS.

I live and work on the ny/pa line and 90 plus percent of the guys who live in pa like the ar's.  Many are not happy with the doe season being in buck season and the number of doe tags give out.

[nyantler]

AR is a great idea... but doesn't work unless the surrounding areas are restrcted as well.  I never much cared what the State was doing as far as AR. I have had my own AR since 1994. Its really not about regulating AR its more about educating hunters as to why its a good thing for whitetails in general. Ar is only one part of a good management program... and helps make sure there is a good age representation in the buck population. But, ratio od bucks to does is just as important, with 1:1 being optimum, 3:1 accepable, and in some places 20:1 is reality. Educate yourself on whitetail biology versus habitat availability and you'll understand much better.

[SteveB]

Actually no on knowlegeable represents 1:1 as optimum or desired. 3:1.  20:1 is rare to close to impossible to find.

[nyslowhand]

AR is a great idea... but doesn't work unless the surrounding areas are restrcted as well.  I never much cared what the State was doing as far as AR. I have had my own AR since 1994. Its really not about regulating AR its more about educating hunters as to why its a good thing for whitetails in general. Ar is only one part of a good management program... and helps make sure there is a good age representation in the buck population. But, ratio od bucks to does is just as important, with 1:1 being optimum, 3:1 accepable, and in some places 20:1 is reality. Educate yourself on whitetail biology versus habitat availability and you'll understand much better.

What's your source for this?

Personal experience?

Most whitetail biologist state that a majority of the breeding is done by 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 year old bucks.

So what significant role in the breeding and management do mature (3 1/2+) bucks contribute?

If it's genetics, we better be talking about reverse AR.

If I'm incorrect; state your source and why I'm wrong.

[nyantler]

Wow you guys are sadly misinformed.. the only reason that 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 are breeding is because the ratio is so out of whack that there are not enough older bucks for competition. I find it funny how people spout off so called facts but don't have any idea what they're talking about. You fellas need to look up Dr. Grant Woods.. leading whitetail deer and wildlife biologist in the country.  Then you can have an intelligent conversation about Antler Restriction. I'm Ok with hunters saying they don't like AR.. thats their choice and opinion ... but I hate when they try to defend their position with nonsense facts.. do your homework fellas.

[nyantler]

  Animal husbandry is the science in part; of selective breeding of Domestic livestock obtain more desirable traits, like more milk from a cow or bigger breast on a turkey.

You also have to remember ½ the genes of any animal come from the female. When you put in a management plan that harvests primarily the biggest and best bucks you are giving what THEHUNTER calls scrub bucks a greater chance to breed not less. This is just fact you remove the best what do you have left. You may see that spike or 4pt. as a 6 or 8 the next year you may not. What you will probably see is a diminish gene pool down the line somewhere. This may be the just of the latest report out of PA.

Not true Larry... for one.. when the AR is first implemented .. the number of bucks taken will drop drastically for a few years until the younger bucks have gotten older and there is a good representation of ages  among the bucks. Usually takes 3-5 years. In the first year you my find more younger bucks doing the breeding but as the program goes on more bigger bucks will be present , creating more competition forcing the smaller bucks out of the breeding pool and leaving the bigger stronger bucks to do the breeding. Its kind of like killing dumb horny 17 year old boys... evenually you will have no experienced savvy adult males to carry on the family name just new 17 yr old teenagers each year. If we just killed the wise experienced harder to kill 50-60 older fathers some of them would survive... and there would be 60, 50, and more 40, 30 , 20 and 17 year olds. instead of just a few adults and all preteens.  Dr Grant Woods

[nyantler]

OOPs sorry Larry .. you are correct about 1/2 th genes coming from the doe.. that is why its important to keep the buck does ratios in check...so that there aren't so many does to be bred ... which causes late breeding (2nd and 3rd estrus periods for does that don't get bred the first time) which creates late born fawns. and so on and so forth

[SteveB]

Larry - I've read the same. That even in a so called balanced age structured herd, a majority of the breeding is done by 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 year old bucks. The older ones will lock up with 1 doe for her cycle and end up breeding only a small handful of does. The young horny teenagers are running around nailing every thing else. None of these quoting "leading whitetail deer and wildlife biologist's" ever say how a fawn sired from a 1.5 is any less healthy then one sired from a 3.5 or older. The health of the deer in an area is determined by available habitat balanced with population - age of the daddy has nothing to do with it regardless of how many times someone wants to say it.

[nyslowhand]

Wow you guys are sadly misinformed.. the only reason that 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 are breeding is because the ratio is so out of whack that there are not enough older bucks for competition. I find it funny how people spout off so called facts but don't have any idea what they're talking about. You fellas need to look up Dr. Grant Woods.. leading whitetail deer and wildlife biologist in the country.  Then you can have an intelligent conversation about Antler Restriction. I'm Ok with hunters saying they don't like AR.. thats their choice and opinion ... but I hate when they try to defend their position with nonsense facts.. do your homework fellas.

Dr. Woods is one of many expert whitetail biologist and they all have slightly different opinions or views.

He is not the "Whitetail God" you are attempting to make him out to be.

He has one view of a wild animal’s behavior; if you plan on following only his preaching it’ll have a very narrow view.

We all have valued opinions which we may not agree upon, but each has its merits.

Yes, even us uninformed & uneducated have plausible opinions.

Please don't let your conversations here be influenced by any agenda you may have outside of this forum.

[nyantler]

He may not be the only whitetail God..   and its not his opinion. its the data collected since before 1990 when the whole concept of QDM reached NY. Grant Woods took an old concept that started back in Texas in the 50's and applied it first here in NY at Weller MT Hunting Club in the mid 90's. The program lasted 5 years with strict QDM regulations on doe take (which the DEC allowed no doe harvesting in that area at the time so they were issued special permits just for the program), antler spread restriction, etc. after 3 years the body weight of all the harvested animals increased drastically... the number of spike bucks sighted dropped from several to "0". the number of big  bucks harvested increase each year to the 5th year. The buck to doe ratio started out over 20:1 and was down to 5:1 by the 5th year. And Although the program was a huge success as far as QDM goes, the membership decided they would still wanted to kill smaller bucks so they did away with the program. Today the weller mountain club is back where they started. Go figure!!!

[Culvercreek hunt club]

He may not be the only whitetail God..   and its not his opinion. its the data collected since before 1990 when the whole concept of QDM reached NY. Grant Woods took an old concept that started back in Texas in the 50's and applied it first here in NY at Weller MT Hunting Club in the mid 90's. The program lasted 5 years with strict QDM regulations on doe take (which the DEC allowed no doe harvesting in that area at the time so they were issued special permits just for the program), antler spread restriction, etc. after 3 years the body weight of all the harvested animals increased drastically... the number of spike bucks sighted dropped from several to "0". the number of big  bucks harvested increase each year to the 5th year. The buck to doe ratio started out over 20:1 and was down to 5:1 by the 5th year. And Although the program was a huge success as far as QDM goes, the membership decided they would still wanted to kill smaller bucks so they did away with the program. Today the weller mountain club is back where they started. (Can you believe those heathens didn't need big antlers to provide satisfaction in their hunting experience?)Go figure!!!

[steve863]

You got to love them Texans!!  They have got to be the greatest and laziest hunters on the face of the earth.  Who other than a Texan can come up with QDM and hunting vehicles like in the link below?  And it's all in the name of making deer hunting as easy as possible for themselves! 

http://whitetailtrucks.com/

[Culvercreek hunt club]

All they need now is a modified rock salt spreader for the back and they can bait and shoot...load the deer and not even get their boots muddy

[steve863]

And they won't get out of the truck and get their boots muddy to load up the deer either.  They will send for another vehicle with a scooper type device attached to scoop it up for them!

[Larry]

  There is no place in this state where hunting is aloud that the buck to doe ratio is anywhere near 20:1. When I say doe's I don’t mean antlerless I mean female deer 1.5 years and older. In most places where hunting takes place it’s closer to 3 or 4 to 1. If the B&D ratios were at 20:1 you would see more DMP’s. remember at any time before the start of the deer season ½ to 2/3’s  of the antlerless deer are fawns that why I don’t like the term antlerless when talking about B&D ratios. The key fraise here is “where hunting is aloud”

[nyantler]

I have no idea where you have been getting your info Larry.. but if we're going to have a debate you have to be at least somewhat educated on what your talking about...Let me go back to that beginning and save us a lot of time.. I have no opinion on AR. Because any standard the DEC plans on using is far less than what I am already doing and have been doing for nearly 20 years. So its a none-issue with me. Its only an issue with others because hunters ( and I use the term hunters loosely)only care about themselves and whats good for them.. not the deer heard. Its ridiculus that a 50 year old man thats been hunting since 16 should get all worked up because he feels the need to shoot a spike horn.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Ny---that last post says it all. That is just the condesending attitude that turns most of the opponents to AR off. I am very glas you walk the earth thinking your crap doesn't stink but it is the other HUNTERS right to choose what they shoot. If you are happy with the limits you set ...great....why the need to push it on them. You "only cares about what is good for them" comment also shows your views......views that your approach is the correct one....for everyone. There are portions of the QDM that I do practice and support but I have yet to see facts and evidence that AR creates health benefits to the herd.

[Larry]

i would like know where you got your number from if you read the post i said where hunting takes place also i said doe's not antlerless pick a wmu where you think the B&D ratio is 20:1 and i can prove its not. and it wont be all that hard

[SplitG2]

Solutions for AR...how about limiting the buck bag limit to one buck for the season.  You will have more bucks survive to reach 2 1/2+ and the hunters who want to shoot yearlings can and the hunters who put restrictions on themselves can do what they want?

[Doewhacker]

Solutions for AR...how about limiting the buck bag limit to one buck for the season.  You will have more bucks survive to reach 2 1/2+ and the hunters who want to shoot yearlings can and the hunters who put restrictions on themselves can do what they want?

I agree. Not every one can get two bucks in a year but I know a couple of guys that do every single year.

[Larry]

less then 5% of the buck take is from guys killing 2 not my number DEC's thats spead out acoss the whole state so its not a high number in any one place

[steve863]

Solutions for AR...how about limiting the buck bag limit to one buck for the season.  You will have more bucks survive to reach 2 1/2+ and the hunters who want to shoot yearlings can and the hunters who put restrictions on themselves can do what they want?

Yes, this would be a simple solution that shouldn't upset anyone.  In fact, there shouldn't be one AR proponent out there against such a rule. 

[Doewhacker]

less then 5% of the buck take is from guys killing 2 not my number DEC's thats spead out acoss the whole state so its not a high number in any one place

Thats still a few thousand bucks each year.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

How about this one....and I KNOW a lot of guys know or run across these folks......How about we police and crack down on the folks filling their wife's ...girlfriend's. brother's Dad's tags. How amny of you guys have seen this?