Let's throw some gas on the fire - MI Report

[nyantler]

Lol ..... Just say what you mean.

I'm pretty sure I do.. just not everybody likes what I mean..lol... I think that's the fun part!

[Doc]

I'm pretty sure I do.. just not everybody likes what I mean..lol... I think that's the fun part!

Yeah, when somebody says that they would let me shoot at them with a crossbow, even at 150 yards, like or dislike isn't exactly what goes through my mind. Anyway, as I said, say what you mean and there won't be any confusion.

[nyantler]

Yeah, when somebody says that they would let me shoot at them with a crossbow, even at 150 yards, like or dislike isn't exactly what goes through my mind. Anyway, as I said, say what you mean and there won't be any confusion.

So with all that are you still thinking the crossbow is anything like your rifle??? I mean other than the things you mentioned that have nothing to do with the power or operation of the bow. Just curious...

[Doc]

So with all that are you still thinking the crossbow is anything like your rifle??? I mean other than the things you mentioned that have nothing to do with the power or operation of the bow. Just curious...

The problem is that each of us are making up our own criteria for definitions, and I suppose we all have a right to do that. I don't happen to see enough principles of shooting disciplines to make the crossbow fit into an archery season. I feel it is not even close to being a bow or a rifle. It is a crossbow, a completely unique kind of a weapon. To me it has more physical features of a rifle in both the physical way it is shot, and rifle-like accessories and stabilization features available. And it requires none of the rigid hand-eye-muscle coordination and physical human muscle consistancy and form requirements of any vertical bow.

I think that they got it right when they put them in the regular gun season. Gun season currently is a catch-all season open to all weapons. I think that is where they belong. And in the two or three years of repetition over and over and over of the same arguments, nothing has been brought out that has changed my mind on any of that.

Some want to continue this argument off into the distant future, and to me it is simply trolling at this point. Bringing up the same old nonsense, over and over until you finally provoke a response. That is indeed a classical definition of "trolling". I think we are certainly all intelligent enough to realize that there will never be a meeting of the minds on this topic and yet there are those that apparently don't have enough things to argue about in life and wish to keep this divisive topic on a front burner. We have enough real problems confronting hunting without working so hard at perpetuating old arguments, ad infinitum.

[SteveB]

Countering the same old opinions is no more trolling then giving the same old opinions.

The fact is opinions do change - mine did.

I know a lot that where against crossbow in archery who now either are neutral or pro inclusion.

Can't say I know any one who was pro and is now anti.

Fact is that is is an ongoing debate - the choice to participate is up to the individual.

What does get old is the extremes from both sides and off the wall analogies.

[tughillhunter]

and tug is still...........

Edited March 9, 2013 by tughillhunter

[nyantler]

The problem is that each of us are making up our own criteria for definitions, and I suppose we all have a right to do that. I don't happen to see enough principles of shooting disciplines to make the crossbow fit into an archery season. I feel it is not even close to being a bow or a rifle. It is a crossbow, a completely unique kind of a weapon. To me it has more physical features of a rifle in both the physical way it is shot, and rifle-like accessories and stabilization features available. And it requires none of the rigid hand-eye-muscle coordination and physical human muscle consistancy and form requirements of any vertical bow.

I think that they got it right when they put them in the regular gun season. Gun season currently is a catch-all season open to all weapons. I think that is where they belong. And in the two or three years of repetition over and over and over of the same arguments, nothing has been brought out that has changed my mind on any of that.

Some want to continue this argument off into the distant future, and to me it is simply trolling at this point. Bringing up the same old nonsense, over and over until you finally provoke a response. That is indeed a classical definition of "trolling". I think we are certainly all intelligent enough to realize that there will never be a meeting of the minds on this topic and yet there are those that apparently don't have enough things to argue about in life and wish to keep this divisive topic on a front burner. We have enough real problems confronting hunting without working so hard at perpetuating old arguments, ad infinitum.

Although I wouldn't have a problem with crossbow in archery season personally.. all of what you just said i can agree with... and probably works better collectively... but, come on... arguing the same points over and over is pretty much what keeps this forum interesting and alive..

[josephmrtn]

Although I wouldn't have a problem with crossbow in archery season personally.. all of what you just said i can agree with... and probably works better collectively... but, come on... arguing the same points over and over is pretty much what keeps this forum interesting and alive..

Gotta agree with you there!!! ive been a member on forums where you would wait 2 weeks for a reply to a simple question... this place it MIGHT take 15 min. plus we all have a great time on here... just since joining ive: Got to meet a few of ya (made some friends) got a free box call (thanks letinmfly), some free rifle brass (thanks dinsdale),got help finding primers (thanks larry), a bow (that i dont "have" yet, thanks Doewhacker), some turkey load, some lake trout, and some magazines (thanks pygmy) ive DEFF Had a blast "arguing" with you all and making friends!!!!! thanks to whoever came up w the idea for this sight for making it possible!!!!

[buckarcher79]

Hello all, I've been an avid reader on this forum, but I have not posted much.

I just wanted to put out my opinion in regards to crossbow. I love bow hunting and have been bow hunting for over 21 years. I also like the idea of crossbow. Now I truly believe that this debate puts both parties against each other and it is not good for hunting all together. 

 

I agree with both sides of this topic Crossbows should be allowed to be used in NY and there should be a period were only Bows are used as well. Now this debate can go on forever on who is right and so on. 

 

The bottom line is we should work together. We should come up with a compromise to both the NYB and the NYCC. What I'm trying to say is that for people that are on the fence with crossbows being allowed in regular archery season should not have to take a side.  An agreement should be made were maybe seasons can be established and everyone is happy. Why should there be arguments, both parties have their views and both should be willing to sacrifice something’s. If extending the seasons have to be done so be it or perhaps having special season just for crossbows. I really hate to see us as hunters going against each other over preferences.

 

I hope everyone that reads this understands that maybe your believe is different than mine but neither one of us is right or wrong. We are all hunters and we should stand together united.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I threw this out before but only in jest but the more I think of it, I feel it is a good compromise. Allow full inclusion during bow season on private land. Leave it up to the land owners to make the call for their property.

[buckarcher79]

ok .. I own private land, what about the ones that do not. We would have to come up with a compromise that benefits everyone. We have to keep an open mind and try be respectful to all.

 

Again just because it benefits one person doesn't mean its the right choice. The bottom line is going to revolve around a season of some sort, I'm not sure how the structure would work. I also know that not everyone will probably agree with it, but if we are going to try and get this done compromise and agreement of some sort is the best way, and the only way neither side feels like they have lost- been cheated...

 

I think the best thing is for both groups (NYB & NYCC) to work together to come up with a best proposal. If both groups come to an agreement I’m sure a bill will pass very quickly. We are better of united! Right now we are fighting our self’s.

 

[Doc]

I threw this out before but only in jest but the more I think of it, I feel it is a good compromise. Allow full inclusion during bow season on private land. Leave it up to the land owners to make the call for their property.

Actually, that is how it is going to work even if crossbows are included in bow season. I believe that is why so many people are for the inclusion of x-bows into archery season. Those that own their own hunting land, or lease it or otherwise have control of it, could care less whether crossbow are stuffed into any season because they know that hunter population density is still a function of their choice as to who hunts or who is excluded from hunting their property. In other words for a large contingent of hunters, it is a non-issue because they have the final control.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

ok .. I own private land, what about the ones that do not. We would have to come up with a compromise that benefits everyone. We have to keep an open mind and try be respectful to all.

 

Again just because it benefits one person doesn't mean its the right choice. The bottom line is going to revolve around a season of some sort, I'm not sure how the structure would work. I also know that not everyone will probably agree with it, but if we are going to try and get this done compromise and agreement of some sort is the best way, and the only way neither side feels like they have lost- been cheated...

 

I think the best thing is for both groups (NYB & NYCC) to work together to come up with a best proposal. If both groups come to an agreement I’m sure a bill will pass very quickly. We are better of united! Right now we are fighting our self’s.

Many hunt private land that they don't own. The majority of property I hunt is not owned by me. Explain to me how having the person that owns the land having the final say how it is hunted being a bad thing? Do you thhink the majority of bow hunters hunt state land? I don't know but I would like to.

[Doc]

If extending the seasons have to be done so be it or perhaps having special season just for crossbows.

One thing we have to eventually realize is that there is not an infinite amount of hunting time to establish all kinds of unique "special" seasons.  Just where can we stick an additional season without starting to hunt in the "hot weather" season, or after the "antler-shed" part of the year. Everytime we turn around somebody is suggesting new seasons. There are limits.

[buckarcher79]

One thing we have to eventually realize is that there is not an infinite amount of hunting time to establish all kinds of unique "special" seasons.  Just where can we stick an additional season without starting to hunt in the "hot weather" season, or after the "antler-shed" part of the year. Everytime we turn around somebody is suggesting new seasons. There are limits.

 

I agree with you on the seasons length, at some point you have to stop extending it.  To be honest who knows what the best solution is for this. The thing that I'm trying to point out is that if hunters want to use crossbows, why not have the two groups work out a agreement were both parties feel it is acceptable. Instead of just saying its my way ... thats it.

 

From what I gather here is that there are hunters that just want to use any weapon they want, and others that like to have different seasons.  I not going get into stating which one is right or wrong.... or if there is even a right or wrong. But if they want crossbows to be allowed in the state try to compromise a bit. I'm sure if the approach was taken that way instead full inclusion into archery season it would be more accepted.

 

I am Bow hunter first and I would like to use Crossbows in NY. But on the other hand I believe that Bows should have a diiferent season. Im sure there are many like me out there that are just not saying this that are against the proposed laws for crossbow just because it would be allowed throughout the whole entire archery season. But if they compromised a bit I would be willing to give time during the season to use crossbow! Just not the whole season. 

 

Im not here debating and saying that I'm right.. I just think we should stop fighting against ourselves and try to work something out. At least this way we would have some form of crossbow hunting in NY.

[buckarcher79]

Many hunt private land that they don't own. The majority of property I hunt is not owned by me. Explain to me how having the person that owns the land having the final say how it is hunted being a bad thing? Do you thhink the majority of bow hunters hunt state land? I don't know but I would like to.

 

I own land also. I understand were you are coming from. I also hunt state land I think its best that we include all hunters into this. All Im trying to say is that we should come to angreement that involves all hunters.

 

Ultimitly the land owner always decides whats used on there property within the law requirements. 

 

I think the biggest hurdle we have here is not that crossbow is accepted its just were to put it. It seems including it throught all of archery season is difficult so why not compromise and get period for it.

[Doc]

Im not here debating and saying that I'm right.. I just think we should stop fighting against ourselves and try to work something out. At least this way we would have some form of crossbow hunting in NY.

I know, it's that Rodney King thing all over again ..... "Can't we all just get along" .... lol. Frankly, I think that if half the people who say that, weren't exactly the same ones who initially decided to shove their way into bow season in the first place, there might be a tiny element of credibility in that sentiment. Look, it wasn't the bowhunters who began this hostile takeover. A majority of bowhunters never really argued the point of crossbow legalization for the regular deer season.  

 

I'm sure we will hear this same old Rodney King quote over and over again everytime someone new wants to muscle their way into the bow season. And it will continue to come off just as hollow and disingenuous when they say it too.

 

But I do have to congratulate the crossbow lobby for being better organized and better financed, and they saw what they wanted and they simply took it just as any successful aggressor would. I have to congratulate the NYB as well because in reality they were taking on the gun hunters as well on this issue. It was a good fight, but the outcome is pretty obvious. And once this nonsense finds its way into law, everybody will once again, "just get along" ..... lol. Until the next time bow season is recognized as an easy mark.

[SteveB]

NYB has always fought the legality of the crossbow as a weapon for any season using the slippery slope is unavoidable.

 

They have never and still will not entertain any discussion otherwise - compromise is not in their vocabulary.

Unless of course it is with the state MZ association allowing mz in the early bow season.

[Five Seasons]

The compromise should be the way it used to be. Crossbows during regular and late seasons and during archery for handicapped and elderly. (I would advocate for making the process of gaining permission not difficult or very expensive).

If you want to really bow hunt bad enough, you'll pick up a bow and learn. If you don't want it that bad, then continue to gun hunt.

[SteveB]

 

If you want to really bow hunt bad enough, you'll pick up a recurve/longbow and learn. If you don't want it that bad, then continue to gun hunt. You know - the way it used to be.

 

 

There - fixed it for you.

 

The "compromise" you suggest has never been or ever will be put on the table by the handful that run NYB.

[sits in trees]

There - fixed it for you.

 

The "compromise" you suggest has never been or ever will be put on the table by the handful that run NYB.

^^ correct^^

and wow, i thought i was the only one who was up at those hours...

[sits in trees]

The compromise should be the way it used to be. Crossbows during regular and late seasons and during archery for handicapped and elderly. (I would advocate for making the process of gaining permission not difficult or very expensive).

If you want to really bow hunt bad enough, you'll pick up a bow and learn. If you don't want it that bad, then continue to gun hunt.

Let me ask you something Beno, ahhh forget it.

[growalot]

just get the darn things in for small game..

[phade]

The compromise should be the way it used to be. Crossbows during regular and late seasons and during archery for handicapped and elderly. (I would advocate for making the process of gaining permission not difficult or very expensive).

If you want to really bow hunt bad enough, you'll pick up a bow and learn. If you don't want it that bad, then continue to gun hunt.

I'm inclined to think this is the best compromis givent he current state, with maybe adding the private land distinction - quite a few states have differing private vs. public rules and I think that would be OK to add in here, too.

[Five Seasons]

NYB has always fought the legality of the crossbow as a weapon for any season using the slippery slope is unavoidable.

 

They have never and still will not entertain any discussion otherwise - compromise is not in their vocabulary.

Unless of course it is with the state MZ association allowing mz in the early bow season.

 

wait, so they don't compromise... but they do?

 

It's funny that it's all about wanting in on the season until you lose your campaign year after year. Now you want compromise. Are you a member of "the coalition"? If not; why don't you join? I felt strongly about my cause, so I joined an organization aimed at protecting it. I did the same for the NRA. If you believe the number of members in the "coalition" outnumbers the NYB... well you're out of touch.

 

I'm tired to death with the recurve argument. Comparing a compound to a recurve is much easier to do then a crossbow to a recurve. And guess what? You can still hunt with a recurve. And guess what? if compounds were illegal you could bet your life I would be hunting with a recurve.

 

I've yet to hear a good argument from someone who is not a manufacturer of a crossbow, on why they should be allowed. All I hear is "because I want one, that's why". And for the 3rd time. I'd fully support your right to use one in regular and late season if you wanted.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Belo