Antler Restriction Bill?

[Doc]

There is something about continually restricting the harvests that we find acceptable that kind of bothers me. It seems that everytime this subject comes up many are trying to impress everyone else by saying how strict their rules of acceptance are. They also intend to impress with statements that support even further restrictions that everyone else must abide by.

 

I know that everyone has their own reasons and standards for their hunting, and I feel real uncomfortable trying to get laws passed that would force my beliefs on others. In this day of shrinking hunter populations, I really wonder about the advisability of harrassing the hunters that we still have. That harrassment can come either through new restrictive laws, or the constant harping, and criticizing, and measuring, and negative comments, about the harvest that other have chosen. My position is to congratulate a hunter that has taken a deer ..... big doe, little doe, big buck or small buck. I take no pleasure in watching his smile of pride disappear as I criticize the animal that he has chosen to taken. Maybe others don't have that same attitude and enjoy playing the role of the spoiler. Maybe it makes them feel better to draw comparisons between what they take and what other choose to take, I don't know. But as far as I am concerned, I will set my own limits and standards, and it doesn't bother me that others do the same. And I don't feel that I really need any new laws to force others to believe the way I do. 

[Early]

Extremely well said, Doc.  I share your practice of congratulating hunters on their successes with no picky criticism as to what, exactly, they shot.  All whitetails bagged are trophies!

[wdswtr]

Now to Phade's point. if NY were to change to a one buck tag structure and you didn't have a second tag, would that increase the liklihood you pass on the younger buck more? I know my standards are higher for the second buck tag. (but that is easy since the areas I hunt not only hold some good mature bucks but also very liberal doe tag numbers.

 

Depends on how bow season plays out for me to honestly  answer that .  Im not against a one buck tag and Im not in favor of it in some aspects as well.  An example of that is I hunt two main areas over 2 hours away from each other.  Nothern tier and southern tier.  There are no doe tags given out in my norther area and med chance on first choice and zero on second.  So it puts a limit on amount of hunting one can do in this situation if they are a gun hunter only.  BUT in reality this is not about me nor should it be about one individual but hunters as a whole.  Which is impossible with so many variables from area to area. How does the state manage on a statewide basis, they cant and if they do no matter what many will be upset with the decision.  Back to the question though Would a one buck tag increase the likely hood of me passing on younger bucks?  I would say wouldnt make a difference for me as like I said before I try to fill the doe tag with bow and get the meat in the freezer and pressure off.  Most years I am succesful at this. I will then pursue an oldre class buck if one never presents a shot which often happens and Im seeing lots of young bucks towards the end of the season I will take one.  Not out of a selfish need to kill but rather a way to provide meat for my family and also I have been known to give some venison to some Amish friends who appreciate it more than I can explain.  So in short nope not one bit lol.

[Doc]

Now to Phade's point. if NY were to change to a one buck tag structure and you didn't have a second tag, would that increase the liklihood you pass on the younger buck more? I know my standards are higher for the second buck tag. (but that is easy since the areas I hunt not only hold some good mature bucks but also very liberal doe tag numbers).

I think that last sentence in parenthesis gives a lot of insight into why there are so many different views or levels of acceptance for any of these restrictive proposals. There are so many different levels of opportunities for hunters around the state. There are also differences in abilities from one hunter to the next. While one guy may be in an area where hunting is pretty much a piece-of-cake, or he may be of an experience and skill level that makes the activity seem relatively easy, the next guy may be from an area that is quite deprived of opportunity, or he may be a relative newcomer to the sport.

 

So while some of us can come up with restrictions about as fast as our imaginations can work, and compile a list of regulations designed to handicap hunters in every imagineable way, it may not always be all that obvious to us that there are others in other parts of the state that may simply be frustrated right out of the activity by the addition of prohibitive new laws and restrictions. That is one reason why I tend to not be in favor of statewide restrictions that totally disregard the conditions of habitat or deer numbers or conflicts with other regulations. I think that more thought and better definition of criteria as to the selections of where these ideas are put into law need to occur before anything is even considered for being put into law. This idea of simply drawing a restriction out of a hat and applying it across the state, without any particular in-depth studies as to whether they are appropriate, is a concept that I am completely against but something I seem to hear more and more of every year.

[growalot]

Now that the one buck tag has been mentioned several times... could someone set up a poll post...I don't know how on this site...to get the #'s from guys/gals here as to how many of those buck and doe tags we  fill each year  over ...lets say the last 5yrs?

 

ie...over the last 5yrs how many times have you filled both buck tags?

 

on average what percentage of your doe tags have you filled each year?...ect..ect

[Doc]

Now that the one buck tag has been mentioned several times... could someone set up a poll post...I don't know how on this site...to get the #'s from guys/gals here as to how many of those buck and doe tags we  fill each year  over ...lets say the last 5yrs?

 

ie...over the last 5yrs how many times have you filled both buck tags?

 

on average what percentage of your doe tags have you filled each year?...ect..ect

I thought that one time a while ago, somebody coughed up a DEC number for multiple buck harvests. I'm not sure how far back in the archives one would have to look, but somebody must have that number. Personally, I believe it's been one heck of a long time since I have taken more than 1 buck, and I don't really know anyone else that has ever mentioned doing it. Of all the schemes that have been mentioned, I suspect that a one-buck limit would be the easiest to swallow, but probably the least significant in terms of actual buck harvest numbers.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

IMO Doc I think more multiple bucks are taken that DEC has documentation to support.

[phade]

OBR impacts hunting on a variety of levels.

 

One - for those who do not let OBR impact them (ie they shoot what they want - a spike, fork, etc.) Once they do that, they are done buck hunting. For the most part they are out of the woods or just pounding does.

 

Two - A portion of hunters have loose standards to fill that first buck tag, they will take a small 6 or a 4 to "say they got their buck" and then begin in earnest to hold out for that mature buck because they have that "second" tag. By removing that second tag, this group is willingly more selective in harvest.

 

Three - OBR in general terms, usually means a higher overall age class breakdown of buck harvest. Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky, etc. are examples.

 

Between 5-10,000 hunters a year take two legal bucks in NY. Not a lot, right? But a large portion of the young buck harvest are taken by that second group - the ones who take one to "get their buck" before holding out.

 

5-10k bucks also don't seem like a lot, but in certain areas, eliminating that harvest better balances the deer herd, especially when paired with legit, sound doe management.

 

OBR is simple, effective, and biologically sound. It's a no muss-no fuss system. No need for WMU 7P, 3M, etc. to be AR and 8H, 8G, etc. to not be A/R or compared to 3 a side in 7P but 4 a side in the neighboring unit. There are not many statewide regs or tag structures that will work well across the board. OBR is one that will.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I looked at the multiple buck stats a couple of years ago. What they were, I dont remember off hand. Ill see if I cant dig it up, but its all on this site somewhere.

[jjb4900]

I find it interesting that some of those who are pro AR and disgusted by the thought of someone taking a small immature buck, see no problem shooting two bucks a year..........

[solon]

Don't log onto this site much anymore (too much work) glad I did - just got off the phone with senator Defranciso's office - Voiced my opposition.

I find it interesting that people find the NY Safe act oppressive, but then are in favor of laws the will suppress hunting options...

[jesse.james]

I hunt 6N and is needs badly in that zone. Doe permits are not available for that wmu and have not been for 40 yrs. The deer population had never really rebounded and the answer is lack of ARs. Because of no Doe permits the general rule is brown , horns, down. Very few yearly bucks make it through their first rut. A buck can impregnate on avg 6 Doe a year. We need to give them more time to get the job done.

[phade]

I hunt 6N and is needs badly in that zone. Doe permits are not available for that wmu and have not been for 40 yrs. The deer population had never really rebounded and the answer is lack of ARs. Because of no Doe permits the general rule is brown , horns, down. Very few yearly bucks make it through their first rut. A buck can impregnate on avg 6 Doe a year. We need to give them more time to get the job done.

 

 

AR doesn't fix deer populations.

 

They should get rid of the statewide tag for that area because that's the problem I alluded to earlier. Since you CANNOT shoot does, does will likely rebound naturally in a relatively short order. The force acting upon them are the bow and smoke pole toters keeping that number in check.

 

While I am sure a fair share of 1.5s are shot, plenty make it through to service the ladies.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

6N is an area in the NZ that that only allows antlered deer to be taken in the early muzzle loading season. I thought it used to be archery too but last year it was listed as antlered only  for ML

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I find it interesting that some of those who are pro AR and disgusted by the thought of someone taking a small immature buck, see no problem shooting two bucks a year..........

Who are you refering to?

[jjb4900]

Who are you refering to?

I have no idea who specifically fits into this......but, what sense does it make to be against taking spikes and 4pts, but having no problem taking two 6pts of the same age class, and we all know this happens.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I have no idea who specifically fits into this......but, what sense does it make to be against taking spikes and 4pts, but having no problem taking two 6pts of the same age class, and we all know this happens.

a year and a half old is a year and a half old regardless of the head gear. To me, especially our here in the Northern fingerlakes, Ontario delta area, that is why AR's make no sense.

[jjb4900]

a year and a half old is a year and a half old regardless of the head gear. To me, especially our here in the Northern fingerlakes, Ontario delta area, that is why AR's make no sense.

and even taking two mature bucks out of the herd has to have more of a negative impact than taking just one regardless of age...........just my thought.

[Witty]

I have no idea who specifically fits into this......but, what sense does it make to be against taking spikes and 4pts, but having no problem taking two 6pts of the same age class, and we all know this happens.

a year and a half old is a year and a half old regardless of the head gear. To me, especially our here in the Northern fingerlakes, Ontario delta area, that is why AR's make no sense.

This is why I have changed my mind on AR, 1.5 YO can still be take with AR. That's not what I want.

[WNYBuckHunter]

This is why I have changed my mind on AR, 1.5 YO can still be take with AR. That's not what I want.

 

Education is the key

[phade]

Education is the key

 

Trigger control education.

 

We will still have those who want young bucks because they don't have the time, access, or desire to dedicate themselves to holding off. Their license dollars and rank keep the hunting voice loud-ish.

 

I should look into it, but I wonder if PA had a license sales drop post AR. I thought I remember seeing info that they did.

[jjb4900]

Trigger control education.

 

We will still have those who want young bucks because they don't have the time, access, or desire to dedicate themselves to holding off. Their license dollars and rank keep the hunting voice loud-ish.

 

I should look into it, but I wonder if PA had a license sales drop post AR. I thought I remember seeing info that they did.

I certainly can't imagine license sales increasing because of them.....

[Doc]

I guess I have a different attitude about hunting than most do. I do not compare my deer takes to those on TV. I do not look at the ridiculous freaks being raised on deer farms and think "boy, I wish I could get one of those goofy looking things some day". I have a very good idea of the quality of the deer in my area, and I use that  to decide how well I have done. I do not spend a lot of time scheming to get some NYS record that doesn't even exist in my area. I do not plot how to add frustrating restrictions on to everyone's hunting just to make it easier to get some deer that come up to some meaningless score. What is that all about anyway? I don't spend a whole lot of time  belittleing the accomplishments of others or in anyway trying to force my standards on other hunters. I just hunt and try to take the best that my area and habitat and deer numbers have to offer. Yes, it is a lot more laid-back fashion of hunting, and most likely allows me to enjoy my hunting a lot more without being all up-tight about what I expect I should get. No unrealistic expectations or undue pressure on those hunters around me, and no visions of new ways to frustrate fellow hunters right out of the activity ..... no schemes to "grow" my own trophies .... no desires to hoard any of the local deer herd. I simply go hunting and enjoy myself in the pastime. To me that seems to be the entire purpose of the activity, and I guess I will leave it up to others to fret and stew over how to obtain the kind of deer that they see on TV. That is all fine with me as long as they leave my hunting alone.

[jjb4900]

I guess I have a different attitude about hunting than most do. I do not compare my deer takes to those on TV. I do not look at the ridiculous freaks being raised on deer farms and think "boy, I wish I could get one of those goofy looking things some day". I have a very good idea of the quality of the deer in my area, and I use that  to decide how well I have done. I do not spend a lot of time scheming to get some NYS record that doesn't even exist in my area. I do not plot how to add frustrating restrictions on to everyone's hunting just to make it easier to get some deer that come up to some meaningless score. What is that all about anyway? I don't spend a whole lot of time  belittleing the accomplishments of others or in anyway trying to force my standards on other hunters. I just hunt and try to take the best that my area and habitat and deer numbers have to offer. Yes, it is a lot more laid-back fashion of hunting, and most likely allows me to enjoy my hunting a lot more without being all up-tight about what I expect I should get. No unrealistic expectations or undue pressure on those hunters around me, and no visions of new ways to frustrate fellow hunters right out of the activity ..... no schemes to "grow" my own trophies .... no desires to hoard any of the local deer herd. I simply go hunting and enjoy myself in the pastime. To me that seems to be the entire purpose of the activity, and I guess I will leave it up to others to fret and stew over how to obtain the kind of deer that they see on TV. That is all fine with me as long as they leave my hunting alone.

well said.......

[G-Man]

I have taken multiple bucks for last 5 years, bow and gun. 90% of deer are taken by 10% of the hunters. as for ar's i take what i consider the top 10 deer in my area, as shown on cameras. for those that don't see bucks and the brown and its down areas, nys has a lot of hunters 650,000 i believe(somewhere around that number ) not everyone gets a deer mybe 1/4 of the hunters (prolly less than that, as hunters take 2-7 deer themselves) isn't this whole issue one of hunter satisfaction? face it if you leave yearling bucks alone, the same hunters are just going to fill their tags with 2 year olds? then what limit hunters to 1 deer  buck only or either sex? will you get 1 then?Maybe more time hunting and scouting are in order... most people on sites like this put in their time or have evolved as a hunter to where they prefer to wait for a big one and are content with the chase and not having to get one every year.