Antler Restriction Bill?

[RangerClay]

Problem is the same deer that walks on your hill is the same deer I just passed on my hill. Bucks can travel up to six miles in one day looking for a doe in heat.

 

I don't believe a deer travels 6 miles per day after the opening day of southern tier.  The big bucks find sanctuary and sit it out till the shooting stops.  Maybe a little traveling at night but they always go back to their hiding place before the sun comes up.

Edited June 11, 2013 by RangerClay

[WNYBuckHunter]

I always felt that those who pushed for AR's were those who had large parcels of land and could pass on smaller bucks because they knew that the other's who hunted the land had the same objective's and that more than likely the small deer they passed would survive and be around next year as bigger deer............

 

Not in my area. As Culver said, if they own large tracts, self imposed ARs are easy. In one area I hunt, there are many property owners with many large and small chunks. Access is very limited, and most of us have agreed not to shoot anything below 8 points, many of us have expanded that to outside the ears and a few dont shoot anything less than 4 1/2 years old or better. Its been working very well, as there have been some absolute monsters taken and regularly seen in the area. Last year, a couple of guys got permission to hunt a small chunk that has always been kind of a sanctuary area. During the first week of gun, they killed 2 small bucks that had been passed by me multiple times. One was a 1 1/2 year old 8 point that was only an inch or so away from the tips of his ears on each side. That buck had some fantastic potential and I was (and still am) disappointed that he was taken out. But hey, thats deer hunting on small property. Would ARs have saved that deer? Nope. Would education have saved him? Theres a heck of a better possibility that it would have than some regulations.

[Doewhacker]

Politicians making decisions reguarding the environment/hunting is not and will NEVER be a good idea. It won't be long before they make some real bad idea's a reality...look at NJ, or California for an idea of the future here in NY.

[mmkay]

Just a couple points. If you are starting at a 6 point next year, givine your method, does that mean the biggest buch you have taken to date is a 4 or 5 point?

 

On the genetics. passing or taking  a small racked buck will do nothing to the gene pool of a free ranging wild herd. The racks of a 1.5 year old is no indication of it's potential. it could have been a late dropped fawn. nutrition? there are many reasons the first rack can be small. You can have the best genetic rack buck in the woods doing the breeding and it still only contributes half the make up of the following years offspring. the doe contributes the other half and there is really no visible indicators of what they will be tossing into the pot.

 

The one thing that will produce the best results for heftier deer and bigger racked bucks and that is age. The best genes in the world will do nothing if they are taken at 1.5. That said I agree with WNY that education my preferred avenue rather than a mandate of AR's. I hate to see it expanded and I still don't understand why they are needed.If what the the proponents say, "the majority support it", then why is it needed?

 

Talk about peer pressure. How about DEC puts out a listing of hunters and what they take each year. ---Joe Smith got a 5 point with his bow and a 8 point with his gun and 2 does fawns wit the ML.

 

does that mean the biggest buch you have taken to date is a 4 or 5 point?

No its means that I took nothing the year before.  I don't shoot spikes or 4pts.  I start at 6pt or better.  I will shoot a doe or two with my bow, but that so I have venison

 

passing or taking  a small racked buck will do nothing to the gene pool of a free ranging wild herd. The racks of a 1.5 year old is no indication of it's potential

I said nothing about a 1.5 yr old deer.  why do you assume an 2+ yr old deer won't have a shit rack.  some deer only produce spike or 4pts.  AR will allow these tard deer to survive and breed.  Shoot them if you want...the stronger smarter deer will survive the march of the pumpkins.  wait 4 days walk in a few miles find thick cover and hunt a week or more, you'll get a good buck

 

[Witty]

True, My definition of a good hunt to someone else's could be miles apart. I believe seeing the game you are after is a good hunt. Being able to watch and learn how deer react in different situations is fascinating to me. Other people might feel they need to kill something to have a good hunt. I like killing animals as much as the next guy but I don't need to do it to enjoy my hunt. I agree everyone hunts for different reason, but I always found it cheaper to go to the super market then to hunt for my meals.

When was the last time you picked up some venison tenderloins from Wegman's? How about the last time you double-lunged a hefty black angus?

Not always about being cheap when attempting to provide food on the table.

Does have tenderloins too. And if I could shoot a hefty black angus I would lol. I'm not saying my opinion is the only way to think on this, or that it's right. It is just how I feel, personally I prefer rabbit, squirrel or turkey over deer meat. Maybe that's why I think the way I do. Most of my venison is donated to families that need it more then I do.

[Witty]

Problem is the same deer that walks on your hill is the same deer I just passed on my hill. Bucks can travel up to six miles in one day looking for a doe in heat.

I don't believe a deer travels 6 miles per day after the opening day of southern tier. The big bucks find sanctuary and sit it out till the shooting stops. Maybe a little traveling at night but they always go back to their hiding place before the sun comes up.

I said up too. We don't see that because most mature deer don't need to fight other mature deer to breed hot does. Thus they travel less because they aren't driven off by bigger deer. The buck to doe ratio in NYS is out of balance and that has to do with better deer management.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

MMkay.

 

I don't put as much emphasis on the points on a rack. Where I hunt better than 50% of 1.5 year olds hold racks that current AR's would not protect so there is really no difference in the 6 point of a spike. It is still a 1.5 year old in most cases.

 

Passing on the spikes and fours will allow more deer to make it to the 2.5 year class and become that deer that heads into that thick remote cover you talk about. The "tard" deer you talk about at 2.5 and higher is very much the exception rather than the rule. Setting up a stragedy around the exception rather than the majority of cases is flawed logic. If you pass on the 1.5's there will be more making it through with potential than the "tard" deer you are worrying about

 

[phade]

Does have tenderloins too. And if I could shoot a hefty black angus I would lol. I'm not saying my opinion is the only way to think on this, or that it's right. It is just how I feel, personally I prefer rabbit, squirrel or turkey over deer meat. Maybe that's why I think the way I do. Most of my venison is donated to families that need it more then I do.

 

 

What's your point? That's a common argument of A/R supporters, but not always realistic. DMPs are not available in several units, they are limited in several more, and some people simply hunt a day or two a year. The areas with high doe populations are usually in the areas where A/Rs are LEAST necessary imo.

 

People who post on forums aren't the ones who need help being retained. It's the ones who hunt a day or two an entire season that make up the majority of license sales.

 

I've just seen too many people happy they shot a small buck to tell them otherwise. It is their decision, imo.

Edited June 11, 2013 by phade

[mmkay]

Culvercreek hunt club -

 

I'm not concerned about any of this.  I shoot what I decide to take.  If i want a large racked deer I put the effort into it.  But some people don't have the time or patients to do so.  I don't care what they get.  If they want to shoot a spike go ahead, who i'm I or in this case the state to say anything.

 

AR is just plain wrong.  If you want a large racked buck, work for it, go to a perserve, book a hunt.  If you put the time in, you'll get a large deer.  I've done it many time on state land....it really isn't that hard

 

 

 

[Witty]

Phade, Don't all WMAs allow for anterless deer to be taken with a bow or muzzleloader? Maybe I've read the laws wrong but that was my impression ( I don't hunt in these areas so I'm not 100% on the laws for them) I too would much rather see better information put out about QDM by DEC over AR. I do know in the areas I hunt, I see a lot of 1.5 year old bucks hanging or in the back of pick ups. In 4A, where I've hunted my whole hunting career, you get a doe tag ever three years. I believe that would fit in with your misguided NY statement. My question to you is what harm would come from AR? I personally don't see any negatives but again that's my opinion.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Phade, Don't all WMAs allow for anterless deer to be taken with a bow or muzzleloader? Maybe I've read the laws wrong but that was my impression ( I don't hunt in these areas so I'm not 100% on the laws for them) I too would much rather see better information put out about QDM by DEC over AR. I do know in the areas I hunt, I see a lot of 1.5 year old bucks hanging or in the back of pick ups. In 4A, where I've hunted my whole hunting career, you get a doe tag ever three years. I believe that would fit in with your misguided NY statement. My question to you is what harm would come from AR? I personally don't see any negatives but again that's my opinion.

there are areas that do not allow antlerless take with an either sex archery tag and what about the hunters who only gun hunt?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Culvercreek hunt club -

 

 

AR is just plain wrong.  I agree with this.

[phade]

Phade, Don't all WMAs allow for anterless deer to be taken with a bow or muzzleloader? Maybe I've read the laws wrong but that was my impression ( I don't hunt in these areas so I'm not 100% on the laws for them) I too would much rather see better information put out about QDM by DEC over AR. I do know in the areas I hunt, I see a lot of 1.5 year old bucks hanging or in the back of pick ups. In 4A, where I've hunted my whole hunting career, you get a doe tag ever three years. I believe that would fit in with your misguided NY statement. My question to you is what harm would come from AR? I personally don't see any negatives but again that's my opinion.

 

Regular Gun hunters make up the overwhelming, large majority of hunters in NY. They do not get an antlerless statewide tag.

 

The bow/ML statewide antlerless is also a dangerous tool and the state has caught on to it and at one point thought about removing it. Why? Because it was being used in areas with no regular DMPs. Think about that - why - if the DEC thought no DMPs could be used because the doe population was too low to support harvest - that it would be OK now for some bowhunter or ML hunter to come in there and kills does on the very same ground designated as being a NO DMP area. The DEC has gone on record and said that this tag is slowing down the ability for NO DMP zones to have rebounding doe populations.

 

Negatives:

Hygrading is a legit concern and one that has mixed data out about it

Adding a variety of complex rules/regulations to micro areas - one statewide rule will not be effective (i.e. 3 a side).

About two-third of 1.5 y/o bucks in my area will have 3 on a side. 4 a side is flat out insane because now it starts to rule out deer above 1.5 y/o.

Casual hunter, recreational hunter, weekend warriors, old people, etc. shouldn't be forced to abide by rules designated to grow bigger racks. We simply do not need more regulation - we need education.

And, honestly, it's voo-doo science. It's not a science of the deer, it's a science of the people who lack trigger control. Restructure the season dates, remove the second buck tag, and have a flexible, fluid doe management system. Done...darn near instant increase in deer quality and one in which people can CHOOSE the deer they shoot.

 

It's a testy topic on this site and in general. People in large don't change their minds. You rarely see large landholders or those who can kill mature bucks in today's environment calling for A/Rs. And, I quantify this with a grain of salt, but most people who do want it, don't have very many big racks on the wall. The ones who do, don't need a system change.

Edited June 11, 2013 by phade

[jjb4900]

I see that the polls show that something like 60% were in favor of AR's......I'm guessing that is 60% of hunter's polled, not 60% of hunter's overall, I know that I was never contacted when they were conducting this survey, was anyone else not sent a ballot? I did send off an email with my feeling's about AR's, but who know's if they even take the time to read them.

[josephmrtn]

There are pros / cons and good people on both sides of the issue, but if you hunt for venison, you soon find that you can boil those horns all you want, you still won't get soup.  I'm against AR's because I believe smaller less desirable bucks will survive and breed.  Deer with better genes will be shot and not be available to breed.  I've taken plenty of tens and eights off of public land (Putnam and Duchess)...it just takes time in the stand and the willingness to pass on spikes / 4pts.  Most of the hunters are out of the woods within 4 days of opening day where I hunt.  They shot their does or spike and are now home.  Just wait, the big boys tend to survive the annual march of the pumpkins.  Walk a few MILES in find some thick nasty cover and you’ll get a large buck.

 

 

I've been using the following method for years.  I take no deer smaller than the deer the year before.  If I shot a 6pt last year, I'll shoot a 8 pt this year.  If I don't see a 8pt, than I shoot nothing.  next year I start at a 6 point.

 

Totaly love it!!! lol

[Witty]

CX Hunt Club- Thanks for enlightening me, I was not aware of that. You are correct about gun hunters. I'm not sure how to handle that. I've had this conversation with people I hunt (friends & family) with who are opposed to AR, we just hunt for different reason I guess. It's hard for me not to be in favor of something I think would improve my hunting experience. I think most would feel the same way. <br /><br />Phade- thanks for the information, it makes perfect sense. To be honest I've never killed a buck in any season. I've had opportunities to take a shot at spikes and fork horns but have opted to pass. I don't think that is the norm from most hunters in my age group or experience level. I've filled doe tags almost every season (either with gun or bow). If we provided better education on QDM how soon would we see results as opposed to adding in AR? I know there are many variables when trying to manage deer (or any wild game) and I know I'm no expert.

[phade]

Education has shown improvements already according to the annual reports issued by the DEC. I think this past season there was a slight uptick in 1.5s but that it was statistically insignificant according to them. The rate of 1.5 harvest has dropped a fair amount in the past 5 or so years.

 

Most of that isn't credit to the DEC, though. It's a bit of a slippery slope, but some of it comes from groups like the QDMA, but also that double-edge sword of deer porn on TV and in the rags. The hunting industry has grown quite a bit and that is protrayed pretty heavily.

 

But, suffice it to say, there will always be the group of weekend warriors or just the ones who go out on opening day, or the ones who simply are happy with a spike. And, really, if that's the case, I can't find fault in them for that.

 

What exactly would you kill buck wise? I'm just asking out of curioisity? Is it a set number/age? Or just a "trip my trigger" thing?

[wdswtr]

Im confused, if Joe goes out and shoots a spike instead of a big 8 for example doesnt that leave the big 8 to only get bigger the following year and therefore increase the trophy class.  If 20 hunters shot 20 large bucks that leaves 20 small bucks roaming the woods, would that not leave a smaller class of deer left in the woods? And a smaller class of deer left for the following year?  Yes they will be bigger the following year but probably not trophy class.  AR just makes no sense to me. Leave the little guys, kill all the bigger ones and what do you have left? A bunch of little deer.  I would much rather and think it is only right that its a choice, I dont care if Joe kills a spike because that leaves a better class deer as far as antler goes for the next guy who might be a trophy hunter.  You have to remember not all areas of the state offer doe permits, not all hunters are bowhunters and gun hunters and have the opportunity to fill a doe tag to let a spike walk if they are meat hunting.  The way I see AR is it stops many people from putting meat in there freezer and it also will stop a lot of new young hunters from taking there first deer because it does not meet the STATE of NY standards as worthy of being eaten.  Maybe Im way off target on this but it just does not make any sense no matter how I think about it. 

Edited June 11, 2013 by wdswtr

[wdswtr]

What exactly would you kill buck wise? I'm just asking out of curioisity? Is it a set number/age? Or just a "trip my trigger" thing?

 

There are so many variables for me its tough for me to answer but I will give it a go lol.   I tend to try to fill a doe tag with the bow in early season.  If Im succesful at that I move on to pursueing a larger class deer.  However if I am not succesful I still have a tendancy to hold off and wait for a larger class deer. But as it gets closer to the end of bow season and I am seeing a lot of small bucks like spikes I have no problem taking one to relieve the pressure a bit of putting food in the freezer (thats is only if Im seeing a high number of them)  To sum it up once a doe or a late season small class buck is in the freezer the trophy hunt is on as well as trying to fill a doe tag or 2.

Edited June 11, 2013 by wdswtr

[Culvercreek hunt club]

To be honest WDSWTR the average hunter will have a harder time taking the 2.5 year old and up becasue they are not the inexperienced deer they are at 1.5 year olds. (except for that brief time where they will run through a family picnic to get to a hot doe). Typically as the buck get older they get harder to take.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

There are so many variables for me its tough for me to answer but I will give it a go lol.   I tend to try to fill a doe tag with the bow in early season.  If Im succesful at that I move on to pursueing a larger class deer.  However if I am not succesful I still have a tendancy to hold off and wait for a larger class deer. But as it gets closer to the end of bow season and I am seeing a lot of small bucks like spikes I have no problem taking one to relieve the pressure a bit of putting food in the freezer (thats is only if Im seeing a high number of them)  To sum it up once a doe or a late season small class buck is in the freezer the trophy hunt is on as well as trying to fill a doe tag or 2.

Now to Phade's point. if NY were to change to a one buck tag structure and you didn't have a second tag, would that increase the liklihood you pass on the younger buck more? I know my standards are higher for the second buck tag. (but that is easy since the areas I hunt not only hold some good mature bucks but also very liberal doe tag numbers.

[jjb4900]

Now to Phade's point. if NY were to change to a one buck tag structure and you didn't have a second tag, would that increase the liklihood you pass on the younger buck more? I know my standards are higher for the second buck tag. (but that is easy since the areas I hunt not only hold some good mature bucks but also very liberal doe tag numbers.

it would have zero impact on me passing up a younger buck or holding out for a mature buck...........and I hunted a number of years back when all you were issued was one buck tag and hoped for a dmp.

Edited June 11, 2013 by jjb4900

[Witty]

Education has shown improvements already according to the annual reports issued by the DEC. I think this past season there was a slight uptick in 1.5s but that it was statistically insignificant according to them. The rate of 1.5 harvest has dropped a fair amount in the past 5 or so years.

Most of that isn't credit to the DEC, though. It's a bit of a slippery slope, but some of it comes from groups like the QDMA, but also that double-edge sword of deer porn on TV and in the rags. The hunting industry has grown quite a bit and that is protrayed pretty heavily.

But, suffice it to say, there will always be the group of weekend warriors or just the ones who go out on opening day, or the ones who simply are happy with a spike. And, really, if that's the case, I can't find fault in them for that.

What exactly would you kill buck wise? I'm just asking out of curioisity? Is it a set number/age? Or just a "trip my trigger" thing?

I've shot at 2.5 year old deer (clean miss) and a much older deer not sure but had a heavy rack and you could just tell it was much older then most deer I've seen (neck, gut and rack were much larger) Both of them jumped the string and the arrow flew over their back. I've only been bow hunting for a short time (3 or 4 years).

[phade]

it would have zero impact on me passing up a younger buck or holding out for a mature buck.

 

Good, for those that it wouldn't impact, they still get their deer and are out of the woods and only take one from the pool.

 

Others, it'll make the trigger a bit more difficult to pull.

 

Best of both worlds, imo.

[phade]

I've shot at 2.5 year old deer (clean miss) and a much older deer not sure but had a heavy rack and you could just tell it was much older then most deer I've seen (neck, gut and rack were much larger) Both of them jumped the string and the arrow flew over their back. I've only been bow hunting for a short time (3 or 4 years).

 

The biggest dividend to you would be proper shooting form and practice, and not AR.

 

And, with this being an internet forum, you cannot read intent. I'm not being sarcastic or holier than thou because I have most certainly missed my fair share of deer - I probably missed more than most before I got my first one. It's just that for personal gain, as you noted, to improve your hunting experience, I'd do what pays the biggest dividend.

 

People seem to want the easy route, there won't be big bucks roaming behind every tree with AR...but one thing is 100% certain, if you practice to become a better hunter, you'll be more likely to kill a mature buck. It seems to me that hunting skills are overrated in today's hunters. I know I have plenty to work on, including tracking a buck down. Someday, that's going to be a focus of mine in the big woods some place.