DEC proposed AR's

[phade]

You continue to let your hatred for AR's cloud the reality... AR's.. when implemented are 100% successful... you can have your opinion about them but continuing to deny that fact makes no sense... for one I never mentioned mandatory AR's.. just antler restrictions in general... whether voluntary or otherwise.. my point which your anger keeps making you not see has nothing to do with the idea of forcing AR's it has to do with comparing the acceptance of the one buck idea or shorter season idea with AR restrictions... nothing more..

As for hunting numbers there is a sharp decline in numbers over the last 40 years... I'll grant you the slooooowwww "uptick" in the last few years, but the number is still low enough to have caused the increase in DMP's over the last 25 years and a lengthening of some seasons to keep pace with the growing whitetail population...and if common sense doesn't tell you that hunters are not prepared to give up an extra buck or have their season shortened then, again, you are letting your hatred for Antler restrictions cloud your common sense.

Tell me again too what new legislations have been passed in the last 25 years that have made hunting worse for NY hunters. I think I already covered how ridiculous that concept is somewhere here in the last few days.

Legislation? SAFE Act...opener move to Sat. for youth yet a youth season is in place, a complete mess up with xbows, AR, not to mention the required use of Decals - a horrible system, the recent change in bonus tags for areas that get them, the attempt to instill a mz season in bow backhandedly, the pheasant rearing facility that took darn near riots to keep open,, and so on and so forth.

Face it, I have no anger about AR. My position is backed by science, biologists I have spoken to who are experts in the field, and more. AR is a poor decision and is not 100 percent succesful as you call it. Hygrading is a major issue as is causing a class of permanently protected buck that compound amd consume resources without the prospect of their numbers ever being controlled.

The latest info on hunters shows a 9 percent increase in the past 5 yrs or so. Hardly a small amount but not huge...slow and steady is fine by me.

Edited September 27, 2013 by phade

[nyantler]

uThe Safe act, although ridiculous, is not a hunting regulation... as for the rest of what you mentioned that is your opinion... there are other hunters that don't share your opinion.

 

You show me one biologist that says that an antler restriction is not affective for balancing buck age structure, which is a basic part of any good deer management, and I'll show you a biologist that doesn't know what he's talking about... but I promise you there isn't one that can or would ever say such a thing. I agree that they may not be for mandating such restrictions, but to claim that they don't work for what they are intended is bullshit... and I think you know it.

 

What you think you know about deer management, or maybe in your eyes QDM I promise you I was speaking on publically long before you ever heard the term. So pretending to tell me that you are relying on biological science and the words of many biologists, but not being able to understand the importance of any antler restriction as a deer management tool is also bullshit. Lose the idea of antler restrictions, voluntary or otherwise, as just a means of trophy management (which I agree it has unfortunately been portrayed by many "QDMers") and begin looking at the concept for what it is designed to do in reality and you will much better understand why I take the position I do... If you continue to think that I'm talking about mandatory AR's, you will continue to lose my point.

[jjb4900]

I would rather see a one buck a year limit instead of AR's, I don't see how taking two mature bucks out of the herd is better than taking one smaller buck........we had AR's imposed in our area last year, although not a fan, it really doesn't bother me at this point because I have taken enough deer that I can let smaller bucks walk without getting too upset.

[phade]

uThe Safe act, although ridiculous, is not a hunting regulation... as for the rest of what you mentioned that is your opinion... there are other hunters that don't share your opinion.

You show me one biologist that says that an antler restriction is not affective for balancing buck age structure, which is a basic part of any good deer management, and I'll show you a biologist that doesn't know what he's talking about... but I promise you there isn't one that can or would ever say such a thing. I agree that they may not be for mandating such restrictions, but to claim that they don't work for what they are intended is bullshit... and I think you know it.

What you think you know about deer management, or maybe in your eyes QDM I promise you I was speaking on publically long before you ever heard the term. So pretending to tell me that you are relying on biological science and the words of many biologists, but not being able to understand the importance of any antler restriction as a deer management tool is also bullshit. Lose the idea of antler restrictions, voluntary or otherwise, as just a means of trophy management (which I agree it has unfortunately been portrayed by many "QDMers") and begin looking at the concept for what it is designed to do in reality and you will much better understand why I take the position I do... If you continue to think that I'm talking about mandatory AR's, you will continue to lose my point.

The study I pointed to came from MSU. You talk about anger and look who is using swear words not once, but twice on a public forum with minors on it. That goes a long way into showcasing your character qualities when someone places an argument against your opinion, and quite frankly you should be ashamed of yourself for stooping to such a level.

I don't care how old you are, or how long you want to spout off about being some pioneer. Your belief system isn't universally held and it appears to rub you the wrong way. My research on the topic led to my work on AR being published in NY Game and Fish, so trust me when I say I'm not pretending or making up where I am coming from. You aren't the only one with a background. AR has fatal flaws as I mentioned - its not a quality option for public mandate and private owners are much better off with age restrictions.

The safe act isnt a hunting legislation? Ask turkey hunters and deer hunters in rifle country. But again, you asked for legislation that made hunting worse...duh. not being able to use certain guns or obtain certain guns that were used for hunting last season...sheesh doesn't seem relevant does it? Fact DECALS was a mistake. I broke the story about decals having a fatal flaw while discussing it with the Dec person in cbarge of its third party acquisition. Fact...the pheasant facility was darn near shuttered. I could go on, but I don't want you to sink even lower with more anger filled swearing tirades because the world doesn't revolve around your belief system.

Edited September 28, 2013 by phade

[gjs4]

The only one of those options that will make a difference for bucks is shortening gun season.... i am a mature/trophy deer guy....shortening gun season is what i would love to see.....but that would be second to improvement in game law enforcement... we have so many cheaters and most of them target bucks...whether theyre 3 pts or 20

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Actually, Im an officer in a branch. I also attended the National Convention this year, and there was one fenced whitetail hunt auctioned off, but the fenced area was 11000+ acres in Texas. Not what I would call a canned preserve hunt. The QDMA does not oppose all whitetail farming activities, as the link that Culver posted shows.

 

Brian Murphy has interest in a PA deer farm? Do tell, because i cant come up with anything about that. Who is "Don H"?

So what you are saying is that QDMA can pick and choose what is high fence as long as it works out for them?  A fence is a fence!

 I should have said fearless leaders...Do you know a Chris Asplundh?

Lets read between the lines on QDMA'S stance on high fence!

 

 

So Frequently Asked Questions About QDMA’s Stance on Captive Deer Breeding

On February 23, 2012 the Quality Deer Management Association (QDMA) issued a national press release urging its members and other concerned sportsmen in several states to contact their elected officials and urge them to oppose legislation initiated by the deer breeding industry that would enable introduction of captive deer breeding operations or expansion of these practices within those states.

QDMA supports the legal, ethical pursuit and taking of wild deer living in adequate native/naturalized habitat in a manner that does not give the hunter an unfair advantage and provides the hunted animals with a reasonable opportunity to escape the hunter. QDMA is not opposing high-fence operations that meet the above conditions.

READING BETWEEN THE LINES; QDMA believes that wearing camouflage clothing and wearing scent blockers while ambushing unsuspecting deer, with the hunter high in a tree, does not give the hunter an unfair advantage. After all, the deer has the option to visually search out each tree, looking for objects or forms larger than a squirrel plus the deer should have known better than to be walking around in daylight hours during hunting season.

What is the captive deer breeding industry?

The captive deer breeding industry (also called the deer farming industry or captive cervid industry) uses artificial means to breed captive deer for profit – typically realized through sales of live animals for controlled breeding and shooting, as well as semen and embryos. Current estimates suggest there are more than 10,000 deer breeders in North America. In general, breeders seek to establish one or more genetic “lines” of deer to produce bucks with the antler size and configuration they desire. Bucks that do not meet this objective typically are sold to fenced shooting preserves, with some killed only days or weeks after release.

READING BETWEEN THE LINES; The captive deer breeding industry is producing superior deer with bigger antlers and a larger body size. In most cases, even their culls are more superior than wild free ranging deer thus creating a disadvantage for QDMA hunters.

The process of selective breeding typically requires animals of known and often narrow pedigrees to be intensively handled and frequently medicated. Bucks from which semen is collected often are physically or chemically restrained and subjected to electro-ejaculation, whereby an electric probe is inserted into the buck’s rectum and energized until ejaculation occurs. In does, artificial insemination is common, whereby a doe may be stimulated to ovulate through use of estrous-synchronizing drugs, followed typically by insertion of semen into the doe’s reproductive tract.

READING BETWEEN THE LINES; The captive deer breeding industry does a great job caring for their deer by vaccinating and medicating them to prevent disease and to control parasites. Some Government Wildlife Agencies and many QDMA people rely on disease and parasites to help control the over population of free ranging deer.

While artificial insemination is a humane and accepted practice all around the world, QDMA people see this as an unfair advantage as they simply cannot compete which such tactics and therefore are left to manage their smaller inferior deer that in some cases are diseased. Examples: Yellowstone National Park and Rocky Mountain National Park plus smaller properties own by individuals all over the country.

Why is this issue one that QDMA felt the need to address?

QDMA’s mission is to ensure the future of white-tailed deer, wildlife habitat and our hunting heritage. This mission is specific to wild white-tailed deer, not those genetically altered, artificially created and human-habituated. QDMA believes that growth and expansion of the captive deer breeding industry could threaten North America’s wild white-tailed deer and the deer-hunting heritage. QDMA is responding to aggressive moves to legalize deer breeding in several new states and to loosen regulations in others. Previously, such efforts were limited to just a few states annually (which QDMA also opposed). However, during the 2012 legislative season, this number swelled to nine states. Simply stated, QDMA believes the potential negative implications warrant our actions.

READING BETWEEN THE LINES; QDMA’s mission is to ensure the future of QDMA by eliminating the competition by whatever means possible because they cannot compete with the captive deer breeding industry. Too many past QDMA supporters have made the switch to hunting behind high fence for superior deer that have proved to be healthier. Many hunters are no longer willing to hunt free ranging diseased herds.

Isn’t this a private property rights issue?

QDMA has a long history of supporting private property rights, especially those which do not infringe on our members’ rights to hunt healthy, wild, white-tailed deer on the properties they own, manage or hunt. Under the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation and the Public Trust Doctrine, wildlife, including white-tailed deer, are collectively owned by all citizens rather than individuals. We contend that captive deer breeding facilities infringe upon the tenets of the North American Model. Thus, we see this as a resource issue (use, access, and allocation) rather than a private property rights issue.

READING BETWEEN THE LINES; QDMA has a long history of supporting private property rights as long as there is no competition from the captive deer breeding industry. QDMA feels that people in the captive deer breeding industry have no rights.

Under the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation and the Public Trust Doctrine, there is no mention of competition and therefore it cannot be allowed. QDMA believes this is not a free country where private property owners can just do as they please.

Isn’t this just dividing hunters?

The underlying ethics of North America’s hunting heritage were well articulated by early conservation pioneers such as Teddy Roosevelt and Aldo Leopold. We believe that to the vast majority of hunters, deer hunting is the pursuit of wild deer produced without direct human contact or artificial manipulation that are hunted and harvested in an ethical manner. We adhere to Webster’s definition of “wild” as follows: “living in a state of nature not ordinarily tame or domesticated.” Therefore, we don’t agree we are dividing hunters, but rather distinguishing between hunting and shooting based on whether or not the quarry is wild. While practices such as Internet shooting, poaching, and canned shoots involve killing of animals, the hunting community, as well as the majority of the non-hunting public, widely reject these practices as hunting.

READING BETWEEN THE LINES; QDMA believes it is the pursuit of their happiness that matters. It's their way or no way. No one else is allowed to have an opinion or a choice about how they hunt. They believe the way they ambush a deer should be the only way because after all, free ranging deer at least have a chance to escape by out running that high speed bullet. Can a deer distinguish between a hunter's bullet and a shooter's bullet? Is the deer any less dead?

[phade]

The only one of those options that will make a difference for bucks is shortening gun season.... i am a mature/trophy deer guy....shortening gun season is what i would love to see.....but that would be second to improvement in game law enforcement... we have so many cheaters and most of them target bucks...whether theyre 3 pts or 20

No lie, had a truck slow down on me while glassing tonight. I had a real sense if the deer were out, I would have been ducking and praying. They couldn't see me, so I was resigned to my luck it was a slow night.

[phade]

Fs...just a simple question and im being genuine in wanting to know. If the herds and genes are superior behind fences, why hunt those mangy diseased deer down in the bowels of letchworth? Seems a bit conflicting.

Edited September 28, 2013 by phade

[Four Season Whitetail's]

"The process of selective breeding typically requires animals of known and often narrow pedigrees to be intensively handled and frequently medicated. Bucks from which semen is collected often are physically or chemically restrained and subjected to electro-ejaculation, whereby an electric probe is inserted into the buck’s rectum and energized until ejaculation occurs."

 

 

Oh man, those poor bucks.  And here we were thinking it was bad enough going to a urologist for a digital prostate exam.  If there is any reason to ban deer farms this would be it!!  

 

Not much of a farm boy huh Steve?   In case ya dont know,Thats how it works for most livestock!

Including Whitetails!!!!

[Four Season Whitetail's]

First light, just a simple question and im being genuine in wanting to know. If the herds and genes are superior behind fences, why hunt those mangy diseased deer down in the bowels of letchworth? Seems a bit conflicting.

 Because thats the one place that i can find bucks that come some what close to the size of my yearlings!!!!

[SteveB]

superior deer with bigger antlers

 

 

Proper term would be side show genetically manipulated freaks

[phade]

Proper term would be side show genetically manipulated freaks

Didn't some crazy guy in europe try the same thing with a super race?

[TheTruth]

Four Season Whitetails is going slam and mislead on QDMA as they took a stand against an industry that puts free ranging whitetails at risk.  Plain and simple.

 

Then he throws names around like Don Higgins and Chris Asplundh who I believe is National Board Member.

 

Yet who is Four Season Whitetails... Are you Mike Kerry?

 

http://www.nydefa.org/profiles.php?i=201&g=220&p=1

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Four Season Whitetails is going slam and mislead on QDMA as they took a stand against an industry that puts free ranging whitetails at risk.  Plain and simple.

 

Then he throws names around like Don Higgins and Chris Asplundh who I believe is National Board Member.

 

Yet who is Four Season Whitetails... Are you Mike Kerry?

 

http://www.nydefa.org/profiles.php?i=201&g=220&p=1

 

Try more like he is going to throw around the truth and after reading your statement it proves you are not real sure what the truth is?  Do some research my friend!!!

[wztirem]

That isn't the QDMA's fault...that's the idiots practicing TDM passing it on for QDM. It's like saying Algebra and Geometry are the same. One is completely different than the other - despite both being math (or a management style). Do you raise deer? If so, I can understand your frustration with the QDMA and their take on captive whitetail herds. You never answered that question last time.

 

Back to the general topic.

 

I don't want "guys" running the hunting season. I want sound principles paired with sound management and hunter tools. A balance between biology, hunter desire, and management. Face it, most of the AR crowd doesn't know AR from a hole in the ground - they simply think it means bigger bucks running everywhere to shoot at. If you deny that, then you must lack "common sense" as NYAntler says.

 

After 10 years of Antler Point Restrictions in Mississippi, research conducted by Mississippi State University revealed 4 serious problems.

1. High Grading causes reduced antler mass and tine length in bucks of all age classes.

2. A class of permanently protected inferior bucks is created. This group becomes larger over time, using up valuable resources and doing much of the breeding.

3. Saving yearling bucks does not increase the harvest of mature bucks in the future.

4. The total buck harvest drops significantly over time.

 

Antler size within the same classes decreased 5-9 inches on 2.5 yo and 10-17 inches on 3.5 yo.

You stated that there has never been evidence of AR being a bad management tool...well, there you have it. Every study I have ever read on AR has shown a decrease in antler size per age class after long-term AR implementation. Permanently protecting inferior bucks is also bad for management because the numbers compound over time - I could care less about genetics in nearly all cases, but allowing bucks that won't meet the AR standards to compound and live long lifespans, consuming resources and breeding...that's not sound management.

 

It all boils down to trigger control. Educate, don't legislate.

 

PDF]

Using Antler Restrictions to Manage for Older-aged Bucks - MSUcares

msucares.com/pubs/publications/p2427.pdf‎

mizing antler size of harvested bucks, you must have an older buck age structure. ... antler restriction that works on one property may not work on another.

 

[wztirem]

Try more like he is going to throw around the truth and after reading your statement it proves you are not real sure what the truth is?  Do some research my friend!!!

 

Good point! There is no no doubt that QDMA has its extremists( who pretend to be QDMA) in wanting to grow big bucks for monetary gain, fences properties and practices deer culling. Deer farms do the same!

 

To lump all of QDMA with the above is unfair and you know it! Deer farmers on the other hand regularly sell enhanced bucks to operators of canned hunts for monetary gain.Such deer are not raised for livestock in the true sense of the word but for antler size. You kill the genetically inferior bucks and probably sell the venison.

 

Deer hunting is big business these days and the means and methods employed by such groups are abhorrent to the everyday hunter. The majority of hunters have no respect  for deer farms who raise and sell genetically enhanced deer to outfits who sell canned hunts.

 

You FSW are a businessman, albeit a very successfull one when it comes to producing genetically enhanced deer and i respect that.

 

However, your argument with QDMA seemingly is based solely upon a monetary issue. The fact that such individual groups pretending to be QDMA proponents (in it for the money) in your opinion( and probably true) are practicing a different method of producing genetically enhanced bucks which strikes a chord within you.Competition can bring about the worst in people and the rhetoric and disinformation emanating from each camp just fuels the controversy.

 

Good luck!

[WesternNY]

Four Seasons we had a nice civil phone conversation in 2012 about the very issues you trash the QDMA about.  

 

I understand your feelings of being upset by the organizations stance on Deer Farms.  

 

The organization does far more for the average hunter and the preservation of the whitetails than bad.   Is every decision and everything they do "gold" no.    They are far from extremists, and the argument that they are concerned about competition of growing big bucks is ridiculous.   

 

 

[nyantler]

The study I pointed to came from MSU. You talk about anger and look who is using swear words not once, but twice on a public forum with minors on it. That goes a long way into showcasing your character qualities when someone places an argument against your opinion, and quite frankly you should be ashamed of yourself for stooping to such a level.

I don't care how old you are, or how long you want to spout off about being some pioneer. Your belief system isn't universally held and it appears to rub you the wrong way. My research on the topic led to my work on AR being published in NY Game and Fish, so trust me when I say I'm not pretending or making up where I am coming from. You aren't the only one with a background. AR has fatal flaws as I mentioned - its not a quality option for public mandate and private owners are much better off with age restrictions.

The safe act isnt a hunting legislation? Ask turkey hunters and deer hunters in rifle country. But again, you asked for legislation that made hunting worse...duh. not being able to use certain guns or obtain certain guns that were used for hunting last season...sheesh doesn't seem relevant does it? Fact DECALS was a mistake. I broke the story about decals having a fatal flaw while discussing it with the Dec person in cbarge of its third party acquisition. Fact...the pheasant facility was darn near shuttered. I could go on, but I don't want you to sink even lower with more anger filled swearing tirades because the world doesn't revolve around your belief system.

That's the best you can do is attack my use of the term bullshit? LOL.... I think I made my point... doesn't matter if you get it or not.

[Doc]

Oh my gosh! A battle of self-anointed experts has broken out ...... lol. It is getting a bit funny to watch the competition of conceit. "My credentials are better than your credentials" .... ha-ha. Yeah, I'm not too impressed .... sorry. But it is entertaining.

[nyantler]

Oh my gosh! A battle of self-anointed experts has broken out ...... lol. It is getting a bit funny to watch the competition of conceit. "My credentials are better than your credentials" .... ha-ha. Yeah, I'm not too impressed .... sorry. But it is entertaining.

Yeah it was kinda silly...I'll be here all week...lol

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Good point! There is no no doubt that QDMA has its extremists( who pretend to be QDMA) in wanting to grow big bucks for monetary gain, fences properties and practices deer culling. Deer farms do the same!

 

To lump all of QDMA with the above is unfair and you know it! Deer farmers on the other hand regularly sell enhanced bucks to operators of canned hunts for monetary gain.Such deer are not raised for livestock in the true sense of the word but for antler size. You kill the genetically inferior bucks and probably sell the venison.

 

Deer hunting is big business these days and the means and methods employed by such groups are abhorrent to the everyday hunter. The majority of hunters have no respect  for deer farms who raise and sell genetically enhanced deer to outfits who sell canned hunts.

 

You FSW are a businessman, albeit a very successfull one when it comes to producing genetically enhanced deer and i respect that.

 

However, your argument with QDMA seemingly is based solely upon a monetary issue. The fact that such individual groups pretending to be QDMA proponents (in it for the money) in your opinion( and probably true) are practicing a different method of producing genetically enhanced bucks which strikes a chord within you.Competition can bring about the worst in people and the rhetoric and disinformation emanating from each camp just fuels the controversy.

 

Good luck!

 Ya know, Its funny that you keep throwing the words..Canned Hunts..in your statements.  I have to say that i do not know of any ranches less than 300 acres. Most hunters never get to hunt 300 solid acres.Im sure there are some with less but a couple bad apples does not cover us all.

 You also talk of the animals we sell. Do the guys that sell beef cattle sell them for the taste or the marble of their meat? Do lambs get taken out at a young age for a reason?  You and many cant seem to handle the fact that Whitetails are now farmed livestock. I can show you on my Ag Dept report where the word deer are right along with every other livestock when they send me my report every year.

 You say deer hunting is big business, Well trust me when i say when i sell my deer each year, I know how big high fence business is. You sound like a bright man so i would say you know that no business will survive without demand. Well i can tell you that most every state outside of Texas cant supply the number of bucks that ranch owners need to buy to keep their hunt requests full. Ny was top on the list of bucks wanted. When a failed dairy farm can put that land into whitetails and make 50 grand a year selling a handfull of deer is some pretty good livstock farming and many,many are learning that every year and doing just that.

 Trust me when i say i was a hunter with many acres of land before i became a farmer and i will always be a hunter first and if i thought for one second that my deer inside fence were in any way a threat to the deer on the 700 acres outside the fence, They would be gone. Groups like QDMA use CWD as an excuss to take shots at us and that is coming back to bite them every year that we learn more about CWD and how it shows up. I would be safe to say that 90% of the people on this site does not even know the facts of the cases of CWD that showed up in our state!.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Four Seasons we had a nice civil phone conversation in 2012 about the very issues you trash the QDMA about.  

 

I understand your feelings of being upset by the organizations stance on Deer Farms.  

 

The organization does far more for the average hunter and the preservation of the whitetails than bad.   Is every decision and everything they do "gold" no.    They are far from extremists, and the argument that they are concerned about competition of growing big bucks is ridiculous.   

 

The underlying ethics of North America’s hunting heritage were well articulated by early conservation pioneers such as Teddy Roosevelt and Aldo Leopold. We believe that to the vast majority of hunters, deer hunting is the pursuit of wild deer produced without direct human contact or artificial manipulation that are hunted and harvested in an ethical manner. We adhere to Webster’s definition of “wild” as follows: “living in a state of nature not ordinarily tame or domesticated.” Therefore, we don’t agree we are dividing hunters, but rather distinguishing between hunting and shooting based on whether or not the quarry is wild. While practices such as Internet shooting, poaching, and canned shoots involve killing of animals, the hunting community, as well as the majority of the non-hunting public, widely reject these practices as hunting.(Quote)

 

I agree..Great talk and to a point im on board with the QDMA way. But the statement above that they put out themselves shows how concerned they are about us growing big bucks for high fence hunts puts a threat on their way of thinking!

[WNYBuckHunter]

No, they are disgusted by the genetic manipulation if the species. 2 year old deer that cant hold their heads up due to the weight of the manufactured rack on their heads, etc. Sorry, but any high fence operation that does not exceeded the average home range of a wild deer, or one that hand raises deer in barns and small pens, and then releases them into a small enclosure to be shot, is a black eye to the real hunting world. The QDMA is pretty clear on their opinions on the subject.

Now Im not against the farming of deer for scents, meat, research, but the high fence hunts that I described above are sick IMO.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

No, they are disgusted by the genetic manipulation if the species. 2 year old deer that cant hold their heads up due to the weight of the manufactured rack on their heads, etc. Sorry, but any high fence operation that does not exceeded the average home range of a wild deer, or one that hand raises deer in barns and small pens, and then releases them into a small enclosure to be shot, is a black eye to the real hunting world. The QDMA is pretty clear on their opinions on the subject.

Now Im not against the farming of deer for scents, meat, research, but the high fence hunts that I described above are sick IMO.

 

Small enclosers, I agree but anytime you want to go to the places i do business with...700-1200 acre enclosers...and you can pick out a buck from a trail cam pic, I will give ya 3 days to drag that buck out of there and then you can tell me about canned hunts. I have one place of 1200 aces that i would give ya 2 weeks to pull a trail cam pic buck out of.  Trust me, Its not as easy as you may believe.

 

As far as the 2 year olds that cant hold their heads up are few and far between. As far as the hunting world..There are thousands of people across the country that would disagree with ya and i believe within 5 more years you are going to see a growth beyond anyones expectations!

[Doc]

There are thousands of people across the country that would disagree with ya and i believe within 5 more years you are going to see a growth beyond anyones expectations!

Unfortunately, I believe you are correct in your prediction. And that poses a sad commentary on the future of hunting. I really don't find that something to celebrate, but it is what hunting is morphing into as people continue to seek out overwhelming advantages that defy the rules of fair chase. It's unfortunate that you find it necessary to be a part of that.