Rifle Hunting

[Doc]

Scenario #1: You are on the edge of a very long field. About 200 yards across this field, heading from the hill down across this field and into the swamp below, a very nice shootable buck has stopped and is standing. You are bench rested on a fallen log and the shot really isn't all that challenging with your trusty deer rifle. Unfortunately, directly behind and in line with this deer is a rather wide, thick, strip of brush. You carefully scan the brush in the hedge, and don't see any sign of any other hunters. You know the odds of another hunter being exactly in line with this deer is pretty slim. And most guys out there are clad in blaze orange, so anyone standing in there should be visible, but you have seen hunters dressed in full camo before during gun seasons. The odds are heavy that it is a safe shot, but not guaranteed. The words of your hunter safety instructor were pretty clear about guaranteeing the safety of the back-drop behind the target. Would you take the shot?

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Scenario #2: Three does came storming through the woods at about 100 yards. They no longer got out of sight when a nice buck following pulled up to a standing stop right in a clearing. It is an absolute "can't miss" shot. But behind him is a flat chunk of open woods with no real backstop, in fact, the ground actually drops down a bit and you can't really see what's over the rise. You haven't seen any hunters moving in that area all morning. Is that a safe shot that you would take? 

[bubba]

You can make an argument to never  take any shot in case some person has moved into the area.  

[Early]

Pass....On both!

[bubba]

You do realize this is just another rant for blaze orange?

[Renegade Hunter]

Take the shot. There is always the factor of not knowing what is in the woods behind an animal. BTW have you ever shot or watched a tracer round? 90% of the time, the round doesn't come to a stop when it hits the ground.

[Catskill Hunter]

You just described pretty much every shot in the Catskills 

[Doc]

You do realize this is just another rant for blaze orange?

Actually this is an honest question about how literally people take that phrase "Always be sure of your target and what's beyond". Anytime we have any discussions on hunting safety that phrase always comes up. And I agree with your first reply that if that phrase is taken absolutely literally, there is a strong case for never taking any shot. There has to be some point where that rule of safety is bent a bit and logic and judgment are used or there would be no hunting anywhere but on cleared and groomed organized rifle ranges with earthen backstops. That is something that no safety instructor ever gets into.

 

I was hoping to get some discussion about where people draw the line. In fact, I have a specific case in mind regarding scenario #1. This being my first year with a rifle in Ontario County, I am looking at that field and envisioning a deer standing out there and am questioning whether that really would be a shot that I would take or not. Scenario #2 is just a standard shooting situation that we have all the time in the woods. But still fails the rule of being absolutely sure of the background.  

 

If you have a problem with blaze orange, I would appreciate it if you would start your own thread on that instead of trying to hijack this one.

[irish_redneck]

1. yes

2. depends on if I knew what was that way. exactly as described with no further knowledge of the area , no. Skylined deer = possible hit to a house / kid.

[GreeneHunter]

On Both ... Shoot Orange Bullets and scream "Heads Up " !

[irish_redneck]

thought some more whilst taking a shower.

 

2. If a large deer.... I'd probably do it... being honest with myself

[Cabin Fever]

I must admit, I have some concerns about my camp, and the use of rifles now. My cabin is about 1/4-1/2 mile back off the road almost 1/2 way back through the huge woodlot. It's within ~100 yards of the far back corner of my property (previous owner built it there), so adjoining land is close. People, including some adjoining neighbors, don't even know it's there and I would like to keep it that way (No break-ins in the past 14 years). Hate to have to worry about my kids or myself throwing on orange, just to go outside, when grabbing firewood, using the outhouse, going to the shed, etc... But, the area is about as flat as a pancake around there....

[accman]

"but you have seen hunters dressed in full camo before during gun seasons." 

 

I'm sorry, if they choose to hunt in full camo, on public land during rifle season, they're taking there own life in their hands.  On private property, knowing where everyone hunts on the property, knowing what direction not to shoot cause you know where those stands are, you may be able to get away with it, but it's not foolproof.  If we get away from our areas, or go look for a deer, or stalk, we put on something orange, at least a hat or cap.  And we have walkie talkies, we're all on the same channel, and if someone's gonna be walking the valley, we know it.  Just safe practice to know who's in the woods.  On public, all bets are off. 

It's hard enough for us to make sure We're doing the right thing than have to worry about somebody not following the rules. 

[Catskill Hunter]

"but you have seen hunters dressed in full camo before during gun seasons." 

 

I'm sorry, if they choose to hunt in full camo, on public land during rifle season, they're taking there own life in their hands.  On private property, knowing where everyone hunts on the property, knowing what direction not to shoot cause you know where those stands are, you may be able to get away with it, but it's not foolproof.  If we get away from our areas, or go look for a deer, or stalk, we put on something orange, at least a hat or cap.  And we have walkie talkies, we're all on the same channel, and if someone's gonna be walking the valley, we know it.  Just safe practice to know who's in the woods.  On public, all bets are off. 

It's hard enough for us to make sure We're doing the right thing than have to worry about somebody not following the rules. 

While this is true, I would not want to live the rest of my life knowing I killed someone even though it might be from stupidity on their part, not to mention the law suits. We just need to be as careful as we can, no real answer here as every scenario and hunter is different IMO. Wear orange for gun season, end of story! it's not worth it not to, it's only a freaking deer!!

[Elmo]

I am assuming that in both scenarios, you're saying the shots you presented is the only shot available.  Ideally I would wait till the deer moves into a safer location.

 

Scenario 1, Yes.  While double checking the woods in the backdrop.  I have pretty good eyes, I'll go from there.  This makes a strong case to wear your oranges in gun season.

 

Scenario 2, No.  I would pass.  I've had other hunters come in to my area and not notice them till they're much closer due to heavy wind before.  I guess that's why I don't kill as many deer as some do.  I scout and find all my available safe shooting lanes and won't shoot till the deer walks into those lanes.  I rather be without deer but with a free conscience, and out of jail.

[Steve7]

1.  Yes

2.  No.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Steve7

[First-light]

I would take both shots. 

[Adkhunter1590]

Boy it would be a tough call. I'd say yes on number 1. As long as I scanned the woods thoroughly and double checked I would take the shot. The 2nd one would be a tough call. I only hunt private land so I have the peace of mind of knowing where everyone is. And our stands are all very far apart and there's no way we could hit each other. On public land I would say I would wait for a better shot. No deer is worth another's life. But at the same time like others have said, most of the time there is no "perfect" shot with solid back stops behind your target. Its a tough call for sure

[shawnhu]

#1, sounds like there's a good chance the bullet will hit the dirt shortly past the deer, so yes I'd take the shot. This is where I would choose my rounds and caliber very carefully, as I always do.

#2, I'd pass this shot.

X-Calibur Lighting Systems

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[Meat First]

#1 Hunt from downhill side and shoot uphill

#2 Hunt from elevated stand

  Did I get it right?

 

[covert]

Yes on the first as long I was sure (within reason) that there was no one behind.

 

No on the second due to the hill.

[Doc]

"but you have seen hunters dressed in full camo before during gun seasons." 

 

I'm sorry, if they choose to hunt in full camo, on public land during rifle season, they're taking there own life in their hands.  On private property, knowing where everyone hunts on the property, knowing what direction not to shoot cause you know where those stands are, you may be able to get away with it, but it's not foolproof.  If we get away from our areas, or go look for a deer, or stalk, we put on something orange, at least a hat or cap.  And we have walkie talkies, we're all on the same channel, and if someone's gonna be walking the valley, we know it.  Just safe practice to know who's in the woods.  On public, all bets are off. 

It's hard enough for us to make sure We're doing the right thing than have to worry about somebody not following the rules. 

Ok, I wish I hadn't mentioned that part about the blaze orange. That is a subject for a new thread. I only included that because we know it does happen and relates to the scenarios that I described. What I am trying to stay focused on is that often quoted phrase that leads the list of safety  attitudes taught in every hunter safety class, "Be completely sure of your target and what is beyond". It definitely is an important reminder, but how literally can you take that and still be actually hunting? See it is my thinking that the safety curriculum does not take that thought far enough. I think they need to describe logical choices and even have a bit of discussion on just what that phrase really means in the practical world.

 

So I am just trying to find out how hunters interpret that concern about absolute certainty of what is behind the deer. I think it is something that should be discussed.

 

I will say that he blaze orange discussion is always interesting, but that is not the focus of this thread.

[Fehyd643]

Scenario #1: You are on the edge of a very long field. About 200 yards across this field, heading from the hill down across this field and into the swamp below, a very nice shootable buck has stopped and is standing. You are bench rested on a fallen log and the shot really isn't all that challenging with your trusty deer rifle. Unfortunately, directly behind and in line with this deer is a rather wide, thick, strip of brush. You carefully scan the brush in the hedge, and don't see any sign of any other hunters. You know the odds of another hunter being exactly in line with this deer is pretty slim. And most guys out there are clad in blaze orange, so anyone standing in there should be visible, but you have seen hunters dressed in full camo before during gun seasons. The odds are heavy that it is a safe shot, but not guaranteed. The words of your hunter safety instructor were pretty clear about guaranteeing the safety of the back-drop behind the target. Would you take the shot?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scenario #2: Three does came storming through the woods at about 100 yards. They no longer got out of sight when a nice buck following pulled up to a standing stop right in a clearing. It is an absolute "can't miss" shot. But behind him is a flat chunk of open woods with no real backstop, in fact, the ground actually drops down a bit and you can't really see what's over the rise. You haven't seen any hunters moving in that area all morning. Is that a safe shot that you would take? 

It's actually funny that you should bring this up.  I am completely fanatic about this type of thing and just got into an argument with a buddy yesterday about it. The ONLY reason I am even going Rifle hunting this year is because I have a chance to hunt a piece of private land where the shots will be angled down to a ravine/creek bed.  I have about 200 max yards of shooting lanes, all of which have 100% backstops.

 

I went out shotgun hunting once last year, and the people I was with wanted to do a drive.  I asked them about shooting lanes,  fields of fire and intersecting FOF, and they looked at me like I was speaking another language.  I thanked them and went home. Never actually hunted that year as this was my only opportunity.

 

My philosophy is, if you do not have a safe shot, don't take it. Barring crazy events or ricochets, a safe shot to me is knowing exactly where your bullet can land.  If you can't assure point of impact with some level of confidence, dont take the shot!

[cdmckane]

It's actually funny that you should bring this up.  I am completely fanatic about this type of thing and just got into an argument with a buddy yesterday about it. The ONLY reason I am even going Rifle hunting this year is because I have a chance to hunt a piece of private land where the shots will be angled down to a ravine/creek bed.  I have about 200 max yards of shooting lanes, all of which have 100% backstops.

 

I went out shotgun hunting once last year, and the people I was with wanted to do a drive.  I asked them about shooting lanes,  fields of fire and intersecting FOF, and they looked at me like I was speaking another language.  I thanked them and went home. Never actually hunted that year as this was my only opportunity.

 

My philosophy is, if you do not have a safe shot, don't take it. Barring crazy events or ricochets, a safe shot to me is knowing exactly where your bullet can land.  If you can't assure point of impact with some level of confidence, dont take the shot!

I take it you're former, or current, military, given your terminology.  I am as well.  Given this, I'm sure you've been on a night fire range.  Tell me, can you EVER be sure where your rounds go after seeing tracer rounds go everywhere but into the backstop on a night fire range?

[Doc]

Anybody here ever hear that buzzing sound of a slug going overhead? It does make you a bit more sensitive to such things ..... lol.

[Fehyd643]

I take it you're former, or current, military, given your terminology.  I am as well.  Given this, I'm sure you've been on a night fire range.  Tell me, can you EVER be sure where your rounds go after seeing tracer rounds go everywhere but into the backstop on a night fire range?

I am, and thank you for your service! Former Army 55D here.

 

 

Night fire... lol, been there done that.  That's exactly why I am so anal about it now!

Edited November 6, 2013 by Fehyd643