Where are the Deer?

[Meat Manager]

I would love to see some real proof of this.

Not rumors or opinions - real proof.

Insurance companies do not loose money on deer - the adjust the rates in areas of higher collisions.

I would say I'd like real proof behind any opinion on the board.

Too much old school hunter tradition of just shooting big boys is what set the herd for a loop in the first place.. Since ny and pa have liberalized the doe take in the past 2 decades I have seen and harvested way more deer. Ofcourse I don't sit in the same place everyday let alone every year for 30 years.

Dec and pa dcnr deer take/game survey statistics back up my claims.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Meat Manager

[Meat Manager]

yeah come where I am and show me where all the deer are expert.

I would guess right under your nose...I'm just kidding and im not trying to be snotty...I believe there are some places with lower numbers because of ecological changes, but the vast majority of this state is in deer glut.

I will always take issue with blaming scientists and specialist who devote there lives (not one weekend in nov) to understanding deer ecology. They get their results from scientifically collected data, not anecdotal observations.

Also only 17% (from dec) fill even 1 dmp. If some folks don't fill multiples, they don't get filled at all.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Meat Manager

[NYSuperSportsman]

I hunt 9J and there are lots of deer. I have seen as many as 15 deer in my foodplots at one time. I have also sat there for hours and not seen any...... I have multiple forms of proof that there are alot of deer. That doesn't mean I am always going to see them. I hunted opening day and saw 8 deer. Shot one big doe and passed on the rest. I have seen 25 deer on opening day. Every day is different and there are all sorts of factors that cause you to see or not see deer. The one that some people forget about is luck.... sometimes you can be unlucky... Just go out and enjoy the woods and hunt. Every time it doesn't go your way don't try and blame someone else. It might have just been bad luck...

[bubba]

I would guess right under your nose...I'm just kidding and im not trying to be snotty...I believe there are some places with lower numbers because of ecological changes, but the vast majority of this state is in deer glut. I will always take issue with blaming scientists and specialist who devote there lives (not one weekend in nov) to understanding deer ecology. They get their results from scientifically collected data, not anecdotal observations. Also only 17% (from dec) fill even 1 dmp. If some folks don't fill multiples, they don't get filled at all.

 

 

since you do not know me or the management principles I use on my property, not even going to respond other than to say if you want to trust a govt agency that is fine. 

[Meat Manager]

since you do not know me or the management principles I use on my property, not even going to respond other than to say if you want to trust a govt agency that is fine.

I do trust wildlife biologist and ecologist working for dec...but I admittedly don't even know where you hunt so I am not denying the possibility of fewer deer in your area, I am just saying its unlikely.

When I see a question like where are all the deer my first answer is "moving around at night."

I imagine your answer is more like "Obama took all my deer!"

Edited November 19, 2013 by Meat Manager

[Doc]

Insurance companies play a big part with the state to reduce the deer  pop. 

If you are interested in how permit targets are set, read about the Citizen Task Forces at the following web address: http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/7207.html

 

There you will find who the DEC and the Cornell extension service agents consider to be the real movers and shakers in determining who has the say in deer numbers. The list of "stakeholders that they have provided are: "Farmers, hunters, foresters, conservationists, motorists, the tourism industry, landowners, small business, etc, are all considered as potentially distinct stakeholder groups". If I were to assign a "pro-deer" or "anti-deer" attribute to those stakeholders, I think the majority of that pool of stakeholders are anti-deer minded people. I also have to wonder how these results might turn out a bit badly skewed by a few biased strong personalities in the group.

 

Anyway, check it out. Some of the make-up and power of these CTFs may explain what kind of population picture the DEC is trying to get to in your WMU.

[bubba]

ok now I have to respond.  If there are tons of deer in my area, then why do I only get a dmp every 4 or 5 years even as a land owner?  Why am I only getting one buck tag.  If by your theory they hand then out to control the population obviously my area is well in control.  You make all the arguments for not having state wide controls.  Look up 6a and 6c areas then tell me we are run over with deer.  There is a ny above the thruway believe it or not.  And I do run trail cams, I put in food I have good cover and made water sources.  The bottom line is there are not the deer here there were 10 years ago.  Since you have no idea where I am, perhaps telling us all your expert opinion that there are deer all over here, is at best skewed.  Botton line here too many nuisance permits over use of dmps and illegal activity has wiped down the population.  These biologists you tout go mainly by information we supply.  So when not all information gets to them, their findings are as skewed as yours.  

Edited November 19, 2013 by bubba

[Meat Manager]

If you are interested in how permit targets are set, read about the Citizen Task Forces at the following web address: http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/7207.html

There you will find who the DEC and the Cornell extension service agents consider to be the real movers and shakers in determining who has the say in deer numbers. The list of "stakeholders that they have provided are: "Farmers, hunters, foresters, conservationists, motorists, the tourism industry, landowners, small business, etc, are all considered as potentially distinct stakeholder groups". If I were to assign a "pro-deer" or "anti-deer" attribute to those stakeholders, I think the majority of that pool of stakeholders are anti-deer minded people. I also have to wonder how these results might turn out a bit badly skewed by a few biased strong personalities in the group.

Anyway, check it out. Some of the make-up and power of these CTFs may explain what kind of population picture the DEC is trying to get to in your WMU.

I appreciate that doc knows his stuff and I willingly admit that each state agencies management plan is going to have a similar but differently proportioned composition of these groups determining the management plan. Deer on windshields is a big problem.

That said, I work within the confines of whatever states management plan I am hunting under. The CTF's goals are crafted into a management plan by wildlife biologists and ecologists.

Regardless who is making the rules the results have been a decline in poor health deer herds and a greater population according to deer take/game survey numbers nearly every year since antler-less liberalization in the 90's.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Meat Manager

[Doc]

Here is another observation relative to the OP. After the first hour of opening day. deer are put on full alert and enter survival mode. It used to be that large drives, and still-hunters kept the deer moving (and visible). Not so today. Many hunters are "sit and wait" hunters. So you have all these guys plunked down next to a tree, and all the deer plunked down in some nasty areas where guys won't go. The advent of clothing technology has allowed guys to sit tight. The advent of Saturday morning hunting programs has convinced them to do so. So the thing is that the deer may very well be there and nobody is forcing them to become visible.

Now add to that how the state parking lots empty out by noon and a lot of guys figure that is the end of their season, and it turns out that the remainder of the season has very few hunters in the woods to move deer that have gone nocturnal. Just enough to let the deer know that they had better stay nocturnal.

There is also the posting and under-hunting of a whole lot of private land. Land bought up and hunted by tiny groups of hunters, again make situations where deer in survival mode are allowed to simply sit tight and make everything appear like there are no deer left in the woods.

Yes, this is all just a lot of theorizing based on some observations only in one little area of one little WMU, but I have to wonder if these scenarios don't take place in many areas and WMUs across the state. It definitely would cast a very misleading picture of the deer populations of today compared to the apparent situations of years ago.

[Meat Manager]

Yes, this is all just a lot of theorizing based on some observations only in one little area of one little WMU, but I have to wonder if these scenarios don't take place in many areas and WMUs across the state. It definitely would cast a very misleading picture of the deer populations of today compared to the apparent situations of years ago.

I am starting to see the hunter pressure thing your way.

I think I would rather work harder to find deer than see more slob hunters in the woods tho.

But even the much lower number of hunters is an explaination of what seems to some like an obscene numbers of dmp's being handed out. Again only 17% get filled.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Meat Manager

[jjb4900]

Here is another observation relative to the OP. After the first hour of opening day. deer are put on full alert and enter survival mode. It used to be that large drives, and still-hunters kept the deer moving (and visible). Not so today. Many hunters are "sit and wait" hunters. So you have all these guys plunked down next to a tree, and all the deer plunked down in some nasty areas where guys won't go. The advent of clothing technology has allowed guys to sit tight. The advent of Saturday morning hunting programs has convinced them to do so. So the thing is that the deer may very well be there and nobody is forcing them to become visible.

Now add to that how the state parking lots empty out by noon and a lot of guys figure that is the end of their season, and it turns out that the remainder of the season has very few hunters in the woods to move deer that have gone nocturnal. Just enough to let the deer know that they had better stay nocturnal.

There is also the posting and under-hunting of a whole lot of private land. Land bought up and hunted by tiny groups of hunters, again make situations where deer in survival mode are allowed to simply sit tight and make everything appear like there are no deer left in the woods.

Yes, this is all just a lot of theorizing based on some observations only in one little area of one little WMU, but I have to wonder if these scenarios don't take place in many areas and WMUs across the state. It definitely would cast a very misleading picture of the deer populations of today compared to the apparent situations of years ago.

I think what you just described is exactly what has happened to my area...........especially when you can drive the roads before the season and count numerous deer, a few weeks later it's like they were never even there. 

[Doc]

i am starting to see the hunter pressure thing your way. I think I would rather work harder to find deer than see more slob hunters in the woods tho. But even the much lower number of hunters is an explaination of what seems to some like an obscene numbers of dmp's being handed out. Again only 17% get filled.

It always seems like the DEC is almost panicked at their inability to peddle their DMPs. It looks like way more of them are made available than they ever really expect to be taken. But then if that is the case, I wonder what mental midget came up with the idea of charging for applying for one. I think they may have reached a situation where no matter how many they make available, there just aren't that many interested hunters willing to take them.

Also, I have to wonder if all of those permits actually get filled. Well, no need to wonder, we know that they don't.

[Catskill Hunter]

There are enough deer here in 4W where I hunt. I get a lot of bucks on my trail cams and a ton of does, They just get nocturnal by me after the first day.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Catskill Hunter

[Grizz1219]

For my area... I was getting hundreds of pics on my trail camera prior to the season and the acorns dropping... Then when the acorns started dropping my pics tanked.. Add in guys hunting areas with the wind being wrong and the deer sightings are dismal... But the deer #'s in my area are still the same as every other year in the past 5.. Just between pressure, weather and "natural" food sightings are way down... Except at night driving, they are EVERYWHERE after dark...

[Meat Manager]

Bubba in with you on nuisance tags, and if you don't get a lot of permits then I certainly believe your wmu is underpopulated.

I'm hunting weedsport/Cato in 7f above the thruway...lots of deer but my sighting were low until all the corn came down.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Meat Manager

[orion]

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/37304.html

 

Even the state admits there are ares that need an increase in deer population.

 

Meatmanager,

 

My family puts in over 50 days of archery and more during gun season. We have over 200 years of combined hunting experience with 6 hunters on the same land. I would think we know a little more then you about whats happening here!

 

But believe what you will

[genesee_mohican]

I guess I can see why some would think there are no deer where they are hunting. If I didn't scout year round and have trail cameras up where I hunt, and there were to walk out in the woods and sit down for a half a day, I may think the same thing. As a matter of fact, I've hunted hard this fall, had a half dozen all day sits and have seen limited deer movement at times. Some days I see none, other days I see 20, it depends on several factors. But if your not seeing deer where you hunt, the best thing to do, is go back out there after some snow has been on the ground for 24 hours and see if there any deer tracks.

[Meat Manager]

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/37304.html

Even the state admits there are ares that need an increase in deer population.

Meatmanager,

My family puts in over 50 days of archery and more during gun season. We have over 200 years of combined hunting experience with 6 hunters on the same land. I would think we know a little more then you about whats happening here!

But believe what you will

If you live in an underpopulated wmu I apologize, most of these threads are started by guys who sit one weekend.

At the same time I will disagree if you believe the DEC is responsible for low numbers. Other ecological factors are much more significant.

[ncountry]

Hey G M. ! I am sitting in a tree right now in Letchworth and have seen 8 does so far this am: ..Where the heck are all the bucks this year? I'm blaming it on a late rut . Over the course of the last 10 days I have only seen 8 bucks ,1 had at least a 17" spread and only 3 points total(dam ar...lol)..most years I connect on a decent buck and see at least 20

[growalot]

 

sometimes you can be unlucky... Just go out and enjoy the woods and hunt. Every time it doesn't go your way don't try and blame someone else. It might have just been bad luck...

Well that hit the nail on the head for me....lol...came in from a 1hr. disney ride in a stand last night...didn't see a thing...crossed the road to the drive and 8 deer went fleeing across the field....went to feed the dogs later andthe beam from my head lamp crossed the field and it looked like it was lit up with fire flies....they were all standing 30 or so yrds off the hedge row in front of the house...no matter where I go there are lots and lots of tracks....I know where they are hiding...know when they are moving...but there are no bucks chasing doe any place but the swamps and during the night......

[growalot]

 

 There is a ny above the thruway believe it or not.

 

 

 

They should make that into a bumper sticker...LOL

[Catskill Hunter]

The camps by me shoot all day on Friday before opener, and they all go out and walk around in the afternoon looking for a place to sit the next day. Then by Sunday everyone is complaining that the deer aren't moving lol. But thats what you get when you hunt state land. The deer are there, saw them all bow season, and until we condition ourselves ( be me anyway ) to keep quiet and stay out of the woods the few days before the opener we will continue to make these deer nocturnal.

 

I hunted for 3 days without seeing a deer however the deer where in my plot by 7:30 - 8:00 pm each night, including a big eight chasing does.

[orion]

How does the state even come up with a population #

[Meat Manager]

How does the state even come up with a population #

It is a combo of deer take numbers along with varying types of game surveys from hunters sighting logs and roadkill reports to radio tagged deer and aircraft mounted thermo-imaging inventories.

It's not an exact science but it is better than hunter observations alone.

Here is a resource on how to run your own trail cam survey to estimate the deer pop on your property:

http://www.qdma.com/articles/how-to-run-a-trail-camera-survey

Here is the form to help do the math:

http://www.qdma.com/uploads/pdf/QDMA-Survey-01.pdf

Edited November 19, 2013 by Meat Manager

[NYbuck50]

Ive taken 5 so far this year. My count through bow season is approximately 200 deer sightings. around 25 buck sightings.  They are still there, there just getting smarter.