New Setback Rules proposed by Cuomo

[growalot]

Curious....not one mention of what else this 150 rule opens up...

 

All those basement subdivision target shooters...

 

Now we won't be talking hunting from elevated positions as one mentioned...or the occasional  shot  opportunity...but guys setting up and shooting several rounds daily at targets in the back yard.... How close does that 150 ft feel when it's your back yard backing up to theirs? Especially with sighting in new equipment or teaching their kids...or the kids out there practicing on their own...remember that pic? the red X..150 ft from the front of our house...how far away does that look to you in this context?

(sp)

 

Edited January 31, 2014 by growalot

[bubba]

Oh dont get all butt hurt because I pointed something out.

 

If you pointed out something that was worth while or added to the conversation rather than your wise a** stuff it would be helpful. You have to be the big shot I understand.  nobody knows it like you do.  if you do not believer that just ask you.

[First-light]

Curious....not one mention of what else this 150 rule opens up...

 

All those basement subdivision target shooters...

 

Now we won't be talking hunting from elevated positions as one mentioned...or the occasional  shot  opportunity...but guys setting up and shooting several rounds daily at targets in the back yard.... How close does that 150 ft feel when it's your back yard backing up to theirs? Especially with sighting in new equipment or teaching their kids...or the kids out there practicing on their own...remember that pic? the red X..150 ft from the front of our house...how far away does that look to you in this context?

(sp)

Shooting a bow in a subdivision is reckless. Use common sense, then again……..

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/nyregion/20arrow.html?_r=0

[growalot]

Here is a story that talks of just two incidences..kids were hit...Then if I recall an old lady having tea in her kitchen...shot in the face I believe...

 

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/03/calif-girl-hit-with-2-foot-long-arrow-on-school-trip/

[WNYBuckHunter]

If you pointed out something that was worth while or added to the conversation rather than your wise a** stuff it would be helpful. You have to be the big shot I understand.  nobody knows it like you do.  if you do not believer that just ask you.

 

Who was being a wise ass? You got butt hurt (aka defensive) because of what I pointed out.

 

Where do you get off saying what comments are helpful and what comments arent?

 

Whatever problem you have with me is your problem, I dont give a rats ass about it, but you could at least man up and not act like a child during every conversation.

[Doc]

True but we don't always have history as a tool to evaluate risk. In your opinion is a 50 yard setback a high, moderate or low risk? Then factor in what is at stake even in low risk "gambles". You might bet a dollar with bad odds but even with really good odds would you bet the farm? Some people would, I am not one of those people...

You're right. Sometimes we have to rely on logic and good old "horse sense" when breaking new ground. I judge the examples of bad press and potential safety hazards that have already been pointed out to be not only gambles, but darn near a set of certainties.

 

By the way, one of the risks that has been pointed out, but I sense underestimated and under-commented on, is that this proposed 50 yard setback not only applies to hunting situations, but also degrades the legal safeguards of set-back from those kids and adults who are target shooting in their suburban yards. What kind of humongous backstop would it require to stop an errant arrow touched off with mistakenly triggered release. Ah yes, the scenarios go on, and on, and on, and they are all very likely to occur as setbacks keep being diminished to a point of ineffectiveness. 

[bubba]

Who was being a wise ass? You got butt hurt (aka defensive) because of what I pointed out.

 

Where do you get off saying what comments are helpful and what comments arent?

 

Whatever problem you have with me is your problem, I dont give a rats ass about it, but you could at least man up and not act like a child during every conversa

 

not even worth answering.  it is obvious.  

[jjb4900]

the more I think about it, the more I think it's a bad idea.....for every one person that's smart enough to hunt safely under a rule like that, there's probably 10 people who aren't smart enough.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

the more I think about it, the more I think it's a bad idea.....for every one person that's smart enough to hunt safely under a rule like that, there's probably 10 people who aren't smart enough.[/quote

Maybe we need an IQ test as part of the hunter education program then?

[jjb4900]

the more I think about it, the more I think it's a bad idea.....for every one person that's smart enough to hunt safely under a rule like that, there's probably 10 people who aren't smart enough.[/quote

Maybe we need an IQ test as part of the hunter education program then?

I think they just test for intelligence, not common sense......

[mike rossi]

This legislative proposal arose from the 5 year deer management plan adopted by the DEC. Before this plan was adopted, it was a little baby called  "draft"; during the adoption process there were opportunities to participate in the public comment phase. Before baby draft was born it was conceived by the responses to surveys by those hunters who bothered to complete and return them...

 

Did those of you who are opposed to the set back strategy bother to participate during the public comment phase? Did anyone who received a survey blow it off rather than complete and return it?

 

Now baby draft is all grown up and is now a plan. The DEC will pursue a legislative change to ECL regarding bow hunting set backs and that legislation will be supported again by some number of sportsmen.

 

Here is something I stumbled on that will interest some of you, its a page off the DEC's website so don't worry about clicking on it:

 

http://www.dec.ny.gov/public/77233.html

 

 

Edited February 1, 2014 by mike rossi

[growalot]

I have never received any of these surveys...nor has anyone in our hunting family....meetings are usually hours away 

[Doc]

 

Did those of you who are opposed to the set back strategy bother to participate during the public comment phase? Did anyone who received a survey blow it off rather than complete and return it?

No ... I didn't become aware of the comment phase until after it had concluded. Their fault -- my fault, I don't know, but I do know that I refuse to go off on a guilt trip over it....lol. Furthermore, I will guarantee those who are most effected by all of this (the average suburban homeowner) will never become aware of any of it until they try to lodge a complaint about some weird-looking guy sitting next to their house in camo and grease paint. And as a matter of fact, it appears that this is not an issue (weapons discharge distance from occupied buildings) where the DEC has the final say anyway. So comments to them probably will not really have that great an impact in the final outcome. Likely the proper place to lodge comments is with your state legislators.

 

And relative to the surveys (which as usual I didn't receive) it sounds like they were only sent to hunters. The fact is that the setback issue is not just a hunter's issue. In fact it primarily affects homeowners, renters and tenants. Was there ever an attempt to sample opinion of the general public. Not that I have seen mentioned. So I suspect that once again the attempts at public input were skewed in a direction to get the answers that they wanted.

[mike rossi]

Hold on a second Doc,

 

The public comment period is an opportunity to get the DEC to make modifications to the draft. As I implied in this discussion, the set back strategy likely may have been an idea of the sporting community in the first place. Maybe not, but it is even more likely that the sporting community did support it during the public comment period. What YOU are implying is that public comment is just a game - follow the current mute swan plan and see how much the antis change the draft if others don't chime in, I hope that doesn't happen, but I think that would make a believer out of you.

 

Those who cant attend meetings can submit written comment, the locations of the meetings are no excuse. Even when you participate in person you (should )still leave a written copy of your comments anyway, so why not just e mail them in anyway?

 

Since the DEC needs a legislative change to implement the set back aspect of the plan, and that has not happened yet,  you are correct, the legislature and governor can still  be lobbied at this point. That is tier three however. Although not everyone received a survey, everybody had opportunity to participate in the stakeholder input, and although public comment is over and the plan has been adopted, legislative approval is still needed regarding the set back aspect and  there still is an opportunityy  to write their state reps and the governor - whether the oppose  or support this measure.

 

The next thing is people say they did not know what was going on, well it is a personal responsibility to keep yourself informed. Some people depend on their club or organization for news and updates, whether that is a wise approach or not I will not comment.

 

I tried to bring this thing full circle, away from the notion that it was some political scheme to its proper perspective starting from the surveying sportsman to public comment on a draft plan to legislative action sought by the DEC to implement one of the strategies in the approved plan. We are running in circles to no end however. Think perspective...

 

Edited February 1, 2014 by mike rossi

[mike rossi]

[Doc]

Ha, you make it sound like everytime the DEC has a comment period on any of their proposals, they publish a legal notice in all the papers. If they did that, I certainly missed it along with a whole lot of other folks too I imagine. I hate to tell you, but damn few people monitor the DEC web-site to see what they are up to. Maybe they are all busy monitoring all the other NYS agencies as well as chasing down all the legislative proposals in the works and just don't always get a chance to get around to the DEC .... lol. I wonder how many people even know that the DEC has put forth a 5 year plan? Probably none of those non-hunting suburbanites that are most effected by the setback part of the proposal. So if some of this crap happens to slip by almost all of the people in the state, I don't think they should really be all sitting around wringing their hands with guilt....lol. I want to meet the guy who is up on all the things we are supposed to have a personal responsibility to keep ourselves informed on. Chances are good that when I find someone who claims that they successfully do this, I will have also found a liar. If you devoted your entire waking hours to digging out all the agenda items of every state government agency (notice I didn't even mention Federal) you still could not come anywhere near discovering all the things that are going on in government that effect your life. It all reminds me of that other ridiculous statement that "ignorance of the law is no excuse". Sure that's the theoretical way that the government gets themselves off the hook, but when you add in logic and practicality, you quickly realize just how stupid a statement of that sort really is. This other notion that it is a personal responsibility to keep yourself informed is equally ridiculous for anyone who actually takes the half-second to think about it.

 

And as far as the surveys are concerned, if only a handful of hunters are surveyed, I guess the responses will likely be skewed in favor of only hunter wishes. Seems kind of logical doesn't it. And if you don't survey those that are most closely impacted (residents) then it shouldn't surprise anyone if the survey come out a bit skewed.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Doc, there was a thread on here that gave all of the info on the public comment period for the 5 year management plan. I remember it being replied to quite a bit. Ill see if I can dig it up. The DEC did announce the public comment period though.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Here you go...

 

http://huntingny.com/forums/topic/9400-ny-dec-proposes-changes-to-deer-and-bear-hunting-rules/?hl=%2Bpublic+%2Bcomment

 

http://huntingny.com/forums/topic/6543-assessment-of-public-comment-on-the-draft-nys-deer-management-plan/?hl=%2Bpublic+%2Bcomment

 

http://huntingny.com/forums/topic/6429-ny-dec-adopts-deer-management-plan/?hl=%2Bpublic+%2Bcomment

 

There are a bunch of other threads on the 5 Year Management Plan, and quite a bit of discussion about it. I cant seem to find the exact one I was thinking of though. It could have been one of the topics about the 5 year plan, then the public comment period was added into the thread at some point. I dont have that much time to dig through the individual threads though. It was a pretty hot topic back then.

 

 

[Doc]

Doc, there was a thread on here that gave all of the info on the public comment period for the 5 year management plan. I remember it being replied to quite a bit. Ill see if I can dig it up. The DEC did announce the public comment period though.

Sorry, I missed it. And of course a thread or two on a hunting forum does not exactly do much good for all the other people that are impacted by this change....particularly those most effected the suburban homeowners, which of course was the point of my reply.

[mike rossi]

Doc,

 

The surveys, as we beat to death already, are of a sample of people, which in theory represent the majority. The interpretation of those surveys, along with other things, are used in the development of a draft. The draft is then opened for public comment. With this particular policy matter, the public has an additional opportunity to influence the set back strategy of the plan, because it requires a legislative change. Those who oppose or support can contact their state reps and the governor's office and voice their opinion.

 

The "Sportsman's Perspective" is indeed "unique". They look at things two ways. First, does it benefit me? Second, there must be a political motive! If half of the time invested in broadcasting the theories about Cuomo's or other democrats disingenuous motivations was instead used to become informed and engaged, the perspective would change. Look at this thread; from the title it was off to a misleading start. If it continued on that course how many would have locked focus there, and not thought about the entire process that lead up to this, and, be none the wiser the next time around? Look at the Perspective image I posted. There are three kinds of people. The optimist sees the glass half full. The pessimist sees the glass half empty. The realist, however, sees the glass as it actually is...

 

Anti hunters have complained for many years that they and/or the non hunting public majority are under-represented in decisions regarding wildlife and land. They have even accused state wildlife agencies such as the DEC with being in "collusion" with hunters. "Collusion" is expressively prohibited by law relating to how state wildlife agencies represent the public or specific groups. In a sense, what you saying regarding the outreach to sportsmen and not the public at large resonates with that mantle. I don't have an opinion about that, other than I do know the anti hunting network keeps updated on the issues it wants to track, such as mourning doves and mute swans.

 

I do agree with you that the non hunting public at large , which is not necessarily anti hunting, might prefer deer browsing their gardens over bow hunters in their back yards.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Sorry, I missed it. And of course a thread or two on a hunting forum does not exactly do much good for all the other people that are impacted by this change....particularly those most effected the suburban homeowners, which of course was the point of my reply.

What i meant was the DEC announced it. It just got posted on here. It was in the NYODN and a bunch of other places as well. If you dont pay attention to Outdoors stuff, you probably wouldnt have noticed though. Most people wouldnt have noticed even if they put it on the 5 oclock news.

[mike rossi]

Perception: Governor Cuomo proposed legislation the sporting community would like, in an attempt to earn forgiveness for the Safe Act while also earning votes for future elections.

Reality: The DEC adopted a plan which includes a strategy which requires a legislative change. The DEC’s branch of Legislative Affairs subsequently began outreach to the governor and members of the legislature which is the reason for the set-back legislation.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Bingo

[Doc]

What i meant was the DEC announced it. It just got posted on here. It was in the NYODN and a bunch of other places as well. If you dont pay attention to Outdoors stuff, you probably wouldnt have noticed though. Most people wouldnt have noticed even if they put it on the 5 oclock news.

Right .... And I assume that your average suburbanite landowner where most of the setback impact is likely to be felt does not subscribe to NYODN, this forum, or any of the other places that it was likely mentioned, which again was the point of my reply.

[Doc]

Perception: Governor Cuomo proposed legislation the sporting community would like, in an attempt to earn forgiveness for the Safe Act while also earning votes for future elections.

Reality: The DEC adopted a plan which includes a strategy which requires a legislative change. The DEC’s branch of Legislative Affairs subsequently began outreach to the governor and members of the legislature which is the reason for the set-back legislation.

You people are welcome to believe whatever you need to about Cuomo and his motives, but his aggressive attitude toward these outdoor issues, and his sudden public proclamations on these issues certainly make one suspicious and even convinced of his motives given the huge problem that he has created with the hunting block of voters. I recognize a con when I see it. This guy is as slimy and slippery as they come and believe me he does not really need any apologists to be standing up for him. All these news articles and photo-ops relating to these issues are not simply a case where he is taking a passive reaction to an agency request. Business as usual you have me believe. Sorry, I occasionally am a bit gullible, but really not that gullible. But like I say, if it suits you all to believe what he is peddling, knock your socks off. Myself, I have to call a con when I see it.