Taking the plunge

[moog5050]

Shawn

Please do some reading on how DL Is measured and where the location of the nock should be at full draw before suggesting I don't understand Doc's comment. That is DL. It can't change unless your arm length changes. Anyone can shoot a bow that is not the proper DL by altering the anchor and loop. It doesn't mean that their true DL changed. Every coach will tell you where the nock should be at full draw. I understand what Doc is saying but it ignores that there really is a right place for the nock to sit when fully drawn for optimal accuracy. That is as important as a repeatable anchor. Yes, if you don't care whether the nock is behind you ear or in front of your chin than you can shoot any DL with a variance in loop size or anchor placement. That doesn't make it right or accepted and you will never be as accurate as you can be. I look forward to the OP asking his shop whether the loop size changes DL. The answer will be absolutely not.

I don't like arguing on forums but I also think its plain wrong for bad info to be passed in as true. I am really done now.

[shawnhu]

Shawn

Please do some reading on how DL Is measured and where the location of the nock should be at full draw before suggesting I don't understand Doc's comment. That is DL. It can't change unless your arm length changes. Anyone can shoot a bow that is not the proper DL by altering the anchor and loop. It doesn't mean that their true DL changed. Every coach will tell you where the nock should be at full draw. I understand what Doc is saying but it ignores that there really is a right place for the nock to sit when fully drawn for optimal accuracy. That is as important as a repeatable anchor. Yes, if you don't care whether the nock is behind you ear or in front of your chin than you can shoot any DL with a variance in loop size or anchor placement. That doesn't make it right or accepted and you will never be as accurate as you can be. I look forward to the OP asking his shop whether the loop size changes DL. The answer will be absolutely not.

I don't like arguing on forums but I also think its plain wrong for bad info to be passed in as true. I am really done now.

Well, I hope you didn't take offense to my comment, but that's my opinion on the matter. I can see Doc's point of view as with yours as well, but both claim to be right, and the other as wrong. I just view them both as right, because there is no wrong, just preference.

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[NFA-ADK]

We could argue about this all year lol.  I guess we can say that draw length does not change but anchor point can and that is where a proper set up bow will feel perfect and is why "expert" advice is advised.  See some one who has been shooting a long time, like 10 years or more.  They will help make sure you ARE set up right along with a good pro shop.

 

Welcome to bow hunting!  Join the arguments!  LOL too funny how we love to argue.  Glade I did not start this. 

I still agree with Doc even though I understand it does not change draw length.  I consider anchor point part of it. 

 

[WNYBuckHunter]

In his example, his anchor point never moved. Hence, what changed was the DL.

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The draw cycle of the bow doesnt change, you dont change the draw length.

 

Look, Im not going to argue with you or anyone else on it, the proof has been put out there by myself and others, believe what you want, but you are wrong. You are trying to argue opinion against a fact.

[moog5050]

I can see both sides. That's exactly why I'm going to Kleins and Greg's to learn more

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Good plan CD.  Enjoy the search for your bow.  I also second the idea of giving a look at the elite brand, even if you buy used.  Transferable warranty and easy shooting bows.

[shawnhu]

The draw cycle of the bow doesnt change, you dont change the draw length.

Look, Im not going to argue with you or anyone else on it, the proof has been put out there by myself and others, believe what you want, but you are wrong. You are trying to argue opinion against a fact.

So where am I wrong and what is my opinion on the matter?

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[Five Seasons]

Correct, it changes the anchor point.

Lol. You proved his point

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[WNYBuckHunter]

Lol. You proved his pointSent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I corrected it. What he is talking about is not changing the draw length, its changing the anchor point. The two things just get mixed up sometimes. Thats all.

[WNYBuckHunter]

So where am I wrong and what is my opinion on the matter?

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You and moog talked about it.

[Doc]

Now, let's really throw a curve ball in there, what about a release with a shorter post than the one you were measured with?

In my case, I use the forward tip of the release as the corner of the mouth contact point. So other than moving the position of my hand, it probably wouldn't effect me. That is with my particular anchor. Other styles of anchor may be effected. That is why I keep saying that all of this stuff should be in place when measuring bow draw length. Even things that do not have obvious impacts, things that you may not even understand how they could possibly impact bow draw length should be installed. As I said before, bow draw length is one of the most important features when you spec out a bow. Why take a chance by leaving anything out. Bows are too damned expensive to be simply "winging" it.

[Doc]

We could argue about this all year lol.  I guess we can say that draw length does not change but anchor point can and that is where a proper set up bow will feel perfect and is why "expert" advice is advised.  See some one who has been shooting a long time, like 10 years or more.  They will help make sure you ARE set up right along with a good pro shop.

 

Welcome to bow hunting!  Join the arguments!  LOL too funny how we love to argue.  Glade I did not start this. 

I still agree with Doc even though I understand it does not change draw length.  I consider anchor point part of it. 

There it is, the point that seems to be getting missed. Changing an anchor point is major, and it really should not be done to accommodate a D-loop. And if you are using your release as the anchor contact point, and you add something between the release and the string, you are lessening the amount that the string is being pulled back. And that is putting your entire bow system at a different point on the force/draw curve. It really is that simple. Your bow's draw length has to be adjusted to accommodate that. So why not set up the bow's draw length with that variable already installed? It really is a very simple concept to understand if people would take the time to actually read what I am saying.

[phade]

There it is, the point that seems to be getting missed. Changing an anchor point is major, and it really should not be done to accommodate a D-loop. And if you are using your release as the anchor contact point, and you add something between the release and the string, you are lessening the amount that the string is being pulled back. And that is putting your entire bow system at a different point on the force/draw curve. It really is that simple. Your bow's draw length has to be adjusted to accommodate that. So why not set up the bow's draw length with that variable already installed? It really is a very simple concept to understand if people would take the time to actually read what I am saying.

So why do most people not do this then?

[orion]

Confused why so many change their anchor point. Isn't anchor point where you draw your hand to your face and where it consistently rests and is "anchored" ? I always thought this doesn't change.

[Doc]

I corrected it. What he is talking about is not changing the draw length, its changing the anchor point. The two things just get mixed up sometimes. Thats all.

First of all, I start out with the premise that anchor points are chosen for reasons other than to satisfy accessories. A person chooses that anchor point for reasons of repeatability and consistency and should not be chasing it around your face to make some piece of added equipment work.

 

Draw length refers to the pressure point of the bow handle, plus 1.75" back to the furthest point of the drawn string ..... not a D-loop, but the string. That point usually corresponds to your anchor point. That is the way the cam systems are designed and set up on the bow to get that furthest point on the drawn string winding up at a specific place in the valley of the force/draw curve. If you add some additional unit (D-loop or whatever) between that furthest point on the drawn string, something has to be adjusted to make that original draw length of the bow wind up in the same point in the valley of the force/draw curve. It is just simple physics. If you take a closed force system and then add 1/2" into it, something has to be readjusted or the system is wrong.

 

Now if you are willing to give up your anchor (a bad idea in my opinion) and draw back an extra 1/2" to accommodate the extra 1/2" of D-loop, then you can use the same draw length settings. I'm saying you are in an archery shop. They can put the D-loop on when determining your required bow draw length. The release you have decided on is there so you can use that during the measurement, so why not do it?

[Doc]

So why do most people not do this then?

First of all I'm not sure they don't. Second of all, you have to ask for it to be done. And third, perhaps a lot of people don't consider that 1/2 inch to be significant. Myself, I am very picky on where that wall is when I am at full draw. Maybe too picky in the estimation of some people. But then I am the customer and when I walk out of that shop, I want the bow exactly perfect for my use.

[WNYBuckHunter]

First of all, I start out with the premise that anchor points are chosen for reasons other than to satisfy accessories. A person chooses that anchor point for reasons of repeatability and consistency and should not be chasing it around your face to make some piece of added equipment work.

 

Draw length refers to the pressure point of the bow handle, plus 1.75" back to the furthest point of the drawn string ..... not a D-loop, but the string. That point usually corresponds to your anchor point. That is the way the cam systems are designed and set up on the bow to get that furthest point on the drawn string winding up at a specific place in the valley of the force/draw curve. If you add some additional unit (D-loop or whatever) between that furthest point on the drawn string, something has to be adjusted to make that original draw length of the bow wind up in the same point in the valley of the force/draw curve. It is just simple physics. If you take a closed force system and then add 1/2" into it, something has to be readjusted or the system is wrong.

 

Now if you are willing to give up your anchor (a bad idea in my opinion) and draw back an extra 1/2" to accommodate the extra 1/2" of D-loop, then you can use the same draw length settings. I'm saying you are in an archery shop. They can put the D-loop on when determining your required bow draw length. The release you have decided on is there so you can use that during the measurement, so why not do it?

 

I know how to measure draw length, and I agree, all I was saying is that you do not change your draw length by adding removing or modifying a D loop, all you do is change your anchor points. Its just something that people can be confused by.

 

I know someone that went to a shorter draw bow a couple of years ago. In order to do so, he had to change his anchor points. It works for him, and he shoots pretty damn good with it, but its not something everyone should do. In this case, we are talking about a brand new shooter, he has no anchor points to change, and unless he is someone that would normally need a long draw length bow (over 30"), theres no real reason for him not to get set up with a bow of the proper draw for his dimensions. Its good hes going to a pro shop, hopefully they will get him setup right.

 

[Doewhacker]

Doc you are really amazing, I give you credit for not acknowledging you are wrong, bravo!

 

I love it when the engineer comes out in you when you don't understand something.

 

 

Let me go measure something and call it physics, haha

[phade]

First of all I'm not sure they don't. Second of all, you have to ask for it to be done. And third, perhaps a lot of people don't consider that 1/2 inch to be significant. Myself, I am very picky on where that wall is when I am at full draw. Maybe too picky in the estimation of some people. But then I am the customer and when I walk out of that shop, I want the bow exactly perfect for my use.

 

Why are you not sure? Seems like every shop I have ever been to, including the manufacturer's tuners and engineers themselves for Hoyt and Elite, don't do/think this way. What makes you unsure then?

 

Why would you say people don't think 1/2 inch isn't a big deal? Not only is that what she said, but I think most archers who use compound bows know that a 1/2in is a big deal.

 

The wall is in the same place in the draw regardless of D Loop, no? Last time I checked the wall is at the end of the cycle regardless.

 

Curious points to ponder.

Edited February 25, 2014 by phade

[orion]

If you keep a consistent anchor point, which you should (an anchor point being where your hand and jaw come together), the difference between using a d-loop and using a release off a string changes the bows drawlength

 

Is there any arguing this?

[WNYBuckHunter]

If you keep a consistent anchor point, which you should (an anchor point being where your hand and jaw come together), the difference between using a d-loop and using a release off a string changes the bows drawlength

 

Is there any arguing this?

 

It does not change the bows draw length. A bow set to a 29 inch draw length only draws 29 inches, regardless of what release you use or attach to the string. It only changes the position of your draw arm/hand in relation to the rest of your body (aka anchor point).

[WNYBuckHunter]

Heres an illustration to show you. Now, with the dloop, the anchor point would be at the red mark on the face, without it, it would be at the blue mark. The draw length of the bow is still the same.

 

[orion]

But you don't change anchor point! So bow drawlength is shorter.

 

Your anchor point should be at the place that is comfortable consistent and accurate for you.  If you change anchor point you either weren"t at the right spot to begin with or you changed it to the wrong spot.

[WNYBuckHunter]

But you don't change anchor point! So bow drawlength is shorter.

 

Your anchor point should be at the place that is comfortable consistent and accurate for you.  If you change anchor point you either weren"t at the right spot to begin with or you changed it to the wrong spot.

 

yes you do change your anchor point with or without the dloop. the draw length of the bow does not change.

 

I said I wasnt going to argue it, if you cant understand, even with a picture, I dont know what to tell you.

[jjb4900]

a bow set for a 29" draw length will always be 29"....but if I add another 1/2 to 3/4 inches by adding a D-loop, will you not have to draw back an extra 1/2 to 3/4 inches to come to full draw? If I only draw back 29", I'm gonna be 1/2 to 3/4 shy of meeting "full draw"...no?......I understand the draw length as set on the bow will not change, but the distance you have to draw the bow back will change by whatever the D-loop adds...........

[orion]

The bows drawlength doesn't change that"s not the point. The point is you should be getting a different drawlength bow!

 

WNYBuckhunter,

 

How do you get your drawlength measured