NY DEC: 2013 Deer Harvest Results are In

[burmjohn]

I know Jeremy fairly well. I know his personal and his professional views for the most part. He chokes down alot of stuff that he doesn't want to swallow.

He was one of my main sources for the AR article I wrote for NY Game and Fish when the initial WMUs went into the pilot study back in the mid-2000s. Along with Mickey and a couple others.

They do get bucks to 2.5 when done correctly, but it's not as clear cut as what some people make it out to be. Education and other tools are better options in my book and don't carry limitations on personal choice and risks to the herd in other ways. Ask him whether he'd say AR or OBR/moved gun season, etc. and so on and so forth would be a better option. It won't be the former.

I agree its not as simple as just ARs but its better then nothing at all. Especially for the areas I hunt... Education along with ARs for 3H have done wonders. The biggest educational impact has been ARs itself, people now see what happens when you let them grow. Ideally the end all be all is to have some more mature bucks with a balanced age structure.

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[phade]

I agree its not as simple as just ARs but its better then nothing at all. Especially for the areas I hunt... Education along with ARs for 3H have done wonders. The biggest educational impact has been ARs itself, people now see what happens when you let them grow. Ideally the end all be all is to have some more mature bucks with a balanced age structure. Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

 

We hunt opposite ends of the spectrum. Here, education has been the biggest impact in not needing ARs as a last ditch effort or preventing them from being initiated, despite attempts.

[burmjohn]

We hunt opposite ends of the spectrum. Here, education has been the biggest impact in not needing ARs as a last ditch effort or preventing them from being initiated, despite attempts.

I wish that was the case here. I'm all for OBR as well but just as ARs wouldn't work in all areas neither would OBR. Though it could help.

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[phade]

I wish that was the case here. I'm all for OBR as well but just as ARs wouldn't work in all areas neither would OBR. Though it could help. Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

 

ARs would need to be a 4 a side to move the allotted % to the 2.5 yo bucket here. That didn't fare well in PA - many or all of those areas have been moved back to 3, and i think that was a big mistake. Any place that needs 4 a side certainly doesn't need ARs imo. Eastern NY, 3 a side protects the allotted %.

 

I'd cringe at the idea of a 3 a side here. If I ever get time, I'll have to post a pic of a 1.5 I shot when I was younger. 12 points. Of all the 1.5s I shot in my time, only one would not have met the 3 a side rule. When I was plugging them, I was plugging what walked by first, so I wasn't picky.

Edited April 26, 2014 by phade

[Meat Manager]

Again, the internet doesn't show emotion or any of the important tangents of conversation. You think I am name dropping and I'm simply giving you context when you tell me I don't know a thing about rudimentary deer biology from a state POV.

The fact is, if you blindly follow agency dictations, you set yourself up for failure on a macro level. NY was there 10 years ago and it was horrible. Saying people need to go fill all of their tags or face snipers is silly talk. They issue more tags knowing that they won't be filled. They don't want 100% of their tags that they issued filled. If they did, we'd have a herd disaster. The emphasis needs to be on accurate management practices with a balanced approach to population control. Just because a tag exists doesn't mean it must be filled. Legally you have every right, but that's completely different.

You pick and parse...

I never said follow the agency blindly (or questioned your creds)...I'm saying on a macro level they have better info then the individual. Manage the herd you hunt locally, but be aware of the larger picture.

In terms of pop control the DEC just released their intended message...Fill More Tags, only 15% are being filled and that is too low. Ofcourse they don't want all 650,000 tags filled....they don't want to hand that many out, they have to.

You are the one who advocated prioritizing "buck time" to herd management. What page is that in the QDM handbook?

Edited April 26, 2014 by Meat Manager

[burmjohn]

ARs would need to be a 4 a side to move the allotted % to the 2.5 yo bucket here. That didn't fare well in PA - many or all of those areas have been moved back to 3, and i think that was a big mistake. Any place that needs 4 a side certainly doesn't need ARs imo. Eastern NY, 3 a side protects the allotted %.

I'd cringe at the idea of a 3 a side here. If I ever get time, I'll have to post a pic of a 1.5 I shot when I was younger. 12 points. Of all the 1.5s I shot in my time, only one would not have met the 3 a side rule. When I was plugging them, I was plugging what walked by first, so I wasn't picky.

I agree a one size all dosent work here. Different environments, situations, and pressures.

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[phade]

You pick and parse...

I never said follow the agency blindly (or questioned your creds)...I'm saying on a macro level they have better info then the individual. Manage the herd you hunt locally, but be aware of the larger picture.

In terms of pop control the DEC just released their intended message...Fill More Tags, only 15% are being filled and that is too low. Ofcourse they don't want all 650,000 tags filled....they don't want to hand that many out, they have to.

You are the one who advocated prioritizing "buck time" to herd management. What page is that in the QDM handbook?

 

I prioritize going after bucks that make me happy. I'm no longer willing to spend more time than I do on doe harvest currently in exchange for seat time for the ones I seek. The more does I shoot, the less time I spend chasing a buck. I shot two doe. That's good enough for my contribution toward the overall picture. Go ahead and keep saying my model doesn't work. If everyone shot two doe, we'd be in trouble. So go pound sand. You keep lamenting me for my aversion to shooting 6 or 7 doe a season, yet my two doe were higher than the state average. Hmmm.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Speaking of meat, I really need to get my ass in gear with my sausage making this year lol

You really didnt print this language on a family read website?   I believe many have been spanked by you for even doing this A$$!!!

 I should know seeing that you threatened me with it many times.  Try and keep it clean will ya?

[dbHunterNY]

I know some DEC reps for some WMUs are reluctant to give the amount of permits you actually need.  they don't give them out because they don't think you'll be able to fill them and they don't want too many taken in a small area.  I've been open to taking doe for a while now and usually take a couple each year and figured that was alright.  now I realize about 30% should be taken.  when I drive in my car or am out in the woods and count the deer as green up happens, I'm in awe at the realized number of deer that would need to be taken.  most have a mentality that was far from taking does than even mine was.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Personally the biggest issue in handling the local population booms in the deer herd is access. If the hunters can't get to the deer, a tractor trailer load of tags won't help. I think the 150' change was set to help that but I sure would like to see some active role out of DEC to assist in access. Don't know how it could be done but that is my take.

[phade]

Many states have WIHA in the midwest. Not as easy here but could be experimented.

[Meat Manager]

Personally the biggest issue in handling the local population booms in the deer herd is access. If the hunters can't get to the deer, a tractor trailer load of tags won't help. I think the 150' change was set to help that but I sure would like to see some active role out of DEC to assist in access. Don't know how it could be done but that is my take.

Hunter Access Programs exist here in the Northeast as well. I agree that the more available land the better.

I help manage a 6000+ acre chunk east of Pittsburg...I personally posted much of the property with Cooperation Wins signs provided by PA DCNR:

http://www.paforestry.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/GN201109-Hunter-Access-Program-1.pdf

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=620379&mode=2

Here in NY there are a few FWMA Cooperatives:

Jersey opens up a lot of very small suburban parks to bows (NY & PA also do this): http://www.co.hunterdon.nj.us/hunting/instruct.htm

DMAPs are the best local population management tool, but they require concerned and educated land owners or land managers.

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Edited April 27, 2014 by Meat Manager

[ncountry]

In theory the dmap permit system should be an excellent tool.. From what I have seen it is an easily abused system used by the local farms to devestate a local herd. On average they view the deer as vermin not as a source of food and enjoyment.. these same farmers will let very few if anybody hunt.

Edited April 27, 2014 by ncountry

[Meat Manager]

In theory the dmap permit system should be an excellent tool.. From what I have seen it is an easily abused system used by the local farms to devestate a local herd. On average they view the deer as vermin not as a source of food and enjoyment.. these same farmers will not let very few if anybody hunt.

I'd say that's a sweeping generalization and I would point to Nuisance Tags as the real problem as there are no limits to them where DMAPs are simply antler-less permits used in season.

I will also repeat my original statement which considers the qualification of concerned land owners/managers:

"DMAPs are the best local population management tool, but they require concerned and educated land owners or land managers."

The main thrust of my post is that when private land owners care about conservancy they can help control pops by granting access AND administering DMAPs.

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Edited April 27, 2014 by Meat Manager

[ncountry]

I'd say that's a sweeping generalization and I would point to Nuisance Tags as the real problem as there are no limits to them where DMAPs are simply antler-less permits used in season. I will also repeat my original statement which considers the qualification of concerned land owners/managers: "DMAPs are the best local population management tool, but they require concerned and educated land owners or land managers." The main thrust of my post is that when private land owners care about conservancy they can help control pops by granting access AND administering DMAPs. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I would have to completely agree with everything you said.     Like I said ,"from what I have seen" It does not seem to work as well as planned. Just my personal experience. Nuisance or destroy permits are even worse.  Imho

 

[orion]

Does the DEC have available the deer population densities they recommend for each DMU? Do they have what the current deer population for each DMU is?

[Four Season Whitetail's]

In theory the dmap permit system should be an excellent tool.. From what I have seen it is an easily abused system used by the local farms to devestate a local herd. On average they view the deer as vermin not as a source of food and enjoyment.. these same farmers will let very few if anybody hunt.

You are correct. It cost me an average of $500 to raise one adult deer on my farm a year. Most deer in Ny are fed by the farmer. If you do the math of how many deer in the state times the $500 bucks?  I could see the vermin statement and some farmers with the..Kill them like rats thoughts... The state makes all the money and the farmers take the hit.

 

Like down in the tier where we hunt, The farmers we hunt on want them all dead and dont care about tags. They will let you hunt but they also gut shoot them at night when they get the chance. The ones that dont let you hunt either hunt themselves or get big dollars from lease.

[G-Man]

I've said it before crossbows are part of the Dec solution to population control..we as bow hunters tend to wait for a buck (I do it as well) by including and hopefully bringing in new hunters(crossovers from gun now really new) that tend to have if its brown its down mentality will hopefully decrease doe population. The big problem is the either sex tag. They should probably lose it and issue doe tags for those archers who wish to have them..this will help in setting true DMP numbers needed in an area.

[WNYBuckHunter]

You really didnt print this language on a family read website?   I believe many have been spanked by you for even doing this A$$!!!

 I should know seeing that you threatened me with it many times.  Try and keep it clean will ya?

 

Youd be wrong on that. Feel free to try again...

[WNYBuckHunter]

In theory the dmap permit system should be an excellent tool.. From what I have seen it is an easily abused system used by the local farms to devestate a local herd. On average they view the deer as vermin not as a source of food and enjoyment.. these same farmers will let very few if anybody hunt.

 

DMAPs all have to be reported, etc. I think you are talking about DDPs or nuisance tags.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

DMAPs all have to be reported, etc. I think you are talking about DDPs or nuisance tags.

They only have to be reported if recovered and tagged. I know of two places that the marginal shots are made on purpose and there is not attempt at recovery. No reporting needed in that scenario. Seems like such a waste and I think the DDP's should be done away with.

[Meat Manager]

They only have to be reported if recovered and tagged. I know of two places that the marginal shots are made on purpose and there is not attempt at recovery. No reporting needed in that scenario. Seems like such a waste and I think the DDP's should be done away with.

Any system can be abused...if caught those who abuse will be prosecuted. If someone has gone to the trouble to get and administer dmaps they are most likely not abusing.

Nuisance tags are the actual problem and should be done away with as they don't require a sinister plan to do serious damage to a herd.

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[WNYBuckHunter]

They only have to be reported if recovered and tagged. I know of two places that the marginal shots are made on purpose and there is not attempt at recovery. No reporting needed in that scenario. Seems like such a waste and I think the DDP's should be done away with.

 

The same goes for your regular tags though. Id bet far more deer are shot and unrecovered from guys trying to fill regular tags than DDPs and DMAPs combined. I honestly dont see any issues with DMAPs, but havent had much involvement with DDPs, so I cant say much about those.

[Five Seasons]

paychecks! the dude's gettin paid for his knowledge! respect it!

[orion]

Does the DEC have available the deer population densities they recommend for each DMU? Do they have what the current deer population for each DMU is?

 

I think a lot more hunters would use their DMP's if the DEC would actually come out with #'s and showed hoe "over" populated we are with deer.

 

But then again they might not want to show those #'s to hunters!