Posted signs

[ants]

I think it is regional.  There is only 2 DEC officers covering our area believe me when I tell you they do not even care about the trespassing complaints.  Another thing that sucked was we spent almost 3 days properly posting the property and by the 2nd week in gun season half the signs were ripped down.  I found one oldtimer on opening day and when I told him to get out his response was "  I have been hunting in these woods for over 40 yrs just try and keep me off"  So i had to resort to putting cameras and alarm clocks on my own property to discourage hunters to get the f--k out.   Walking through on opening day with spotlights and megaphones.  That seems to be the only thing that works. When you say " I am calling the cops":  they pretty much laugh at you........

No way that would fly, in my area. If the DEC won't do anything call the State Police..If they do nothing then call the County Sheriff, still nothing? call the local P.D. Be a pain in the ass. Let them know that you are keeping tract of every time you report trespassers and if the S..hits the fan, it will be on them.  They will  eventually have to act. 

[Culvercreek hunt club]

No way that would fly, in my area. If the DEC won't do anything call the State Police..If they do nothing then call the County Sheriff, still nothing? call the local P.D. Be a pain in the ass. Let them know that you are keeping tract of every time you report trespassers and if the S..hits the fan, it will be on them.  They will  eventually have to act. 

on properly posted property or unposted, unimproved property?

[ants]

on properly posted property or unposted, unimproved property?

Posted but in an area where the posted signs are thin but still visible. Again ..this is pertaining to trespassers who were warned in the past, and knowingly returned to the same area.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Posted but in an area where the posted signs are thin but still visible. Again ..this is pertaining to trespassers who were warned in the past, and knowingly returned to the same area.

Hang them high at that point. Remember, a legal posting is 666' Basically if you had a square 10 acre parcel you could legally post it just at the corners and meet the requirements.  (at least one on a side and not further than 666')

[phade]

Hang them high at that point. Remember, a legal posting is 666' Basically if you had a square 10 acre parcel you could legally post it just at the corners and meet the requirements.  (at least one on a side and not further than 666')

 

I know some people hate it as an eyesore, but when I usually "take over" a property, I post the living snot out of it. I don't care if they think I am crazy. I want them to, in fact. Most of the neighbors are usually met by then and explaining why I am doing that usually is met with positive remarks. They're just as concerned about yahoos on their ground, too.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I tend to go a bit overboard too. I was just illustrating that the legal minimum really isn't that much.

[mt624]

I don't understand how this topic got so bad...it's pretty easy in my eyes you bought the land you want to keep people off it so post it and do it correctly otherwise even if you call the cops or Dec the charge will very likely be thrown out....want stiffer penalties first you have to do your responsibility and post your land and the majority of people will avoid it....sure some will still not care but there will always be that it's like the saying.....a key only stops a honest person....this is same thing is it not your responsibility to lock your house or car....it should be the criminals responsibility to not break the law....fact is if your land isn't posted and someone wanders on all you can do is ask them to leave over and over and over again till you legally and responsibly post your land...that's ny law just like the safe act and taxes and all the other crazy ass laws in ny

 

Where it went so bad was people saying if the line was posted they wouldn't have crossed it, sort of like saying if the doors were locked they wouldn't have borrowed your car or entered your house as an excuse - using your examples with respect.  See the "line" that was crossed there? Land is personal property someone owns, a lack of signs does not give someone else the right to use it.  Just like leaving your car unlocked does not give someone the right to enter it.  People have a right to use public land, with that right comes the responsibility to know where you are and whether or not you belong there.  It's simple.  Put in the effort!

 

And look at all the confusion and conflicting information about something as simple as posting on here - people come on and give advice with good intentions I guess but they don't know what they're talking about.

 

Personally what it boils down to for me is I make sure my land is posted legally under environmental law (different than penal law as some have pointed out) but I don't go crazy trimming trees, painting, going significantly closer than 660' between signs, etc which I think has the potential to be an eye sore in the woods and just creates a lot of extra work for me. But my boudary lines are mostly obvious, and where they aren't I make sure the signs are apparent, that's all.  If you need to do more that's your call. I notify my local conservation officers once a year that this has been done and welcome them to come out and inspect it.  If I catch someone, I charge them - no questions. And the officer can then verify in court that the property was legally posted.  Once word got out that I charge people, most of the problems stopped as people didn't want the hassle of going to court whether they ended up paying a small or large fine.  Charging people is easy, just take back tag info and ID then give a written deposition.  No officer need be present, and cell phone recordings (video, pictures) help.  BTW, I do put my cell phone on all the signs and this has helped tremendously with the ethical hunters too, but I only let them track onto the land if I am (or one of my guys is) present and there is good sign.  I've unfortunately had a few neighbors ruin the blood trail thing too... Also, I do not put my full name - first initial last name.  Have had people see names on signs and then use those names saying: "insert name on sign here" gave me permission.  And for the person who said posting boudaries is like taking a walk in the woods - I must be doing something wrong all these years because it is a lot of work to do it right!!

 

For the guys saying the burden is on the landowner and you would stay off posted hunting land but don't know if you cross onto private from public if it's not marked, etc. - The burden is also on you to know where you are. Land does not need to be posted to be charged for trespass, that's only under environmental law. (I'm not singling any one out, but several have made similar comments to this.)  The burdon under penal is more on you, burden under environmental is more on the landowner.  But to say you wouldn't go there if it was marked is like saying you wouldn't steal a car if it was locked, plain and simple!  If you don't own it and it's not public, you have no right to be on it. 

 

Also, regardless of the law and what it says, there's a thing called ethics.  If you were not taught them, you should learn them and surround yourself with hunters who practice them.  Again, not saying "you" to single anyone out, just spouting my 2 cents worth.  Having hunted private property growing up carrying a permission slip and tax maps (folded up in a baggy before they had zip locks), and now after owning land for 20 years and constantly have people trying to take advantage of me, my patience for those who want to tell me what to do and how to do it has worn thin.

Edited September 22, 2014 by mt624

[fasteddie]

Good post mt624 ...........

[Culvercreek hunt club]

 

 

For the guys saying the burden is on the landowner and you would stay off posted hunting land but don't know if you cross onto private from public if it's not marked, etc. - The burden is also on you to know where you are. Land does not need to be posted to be charged for trespass, that's only under environmental law. (I'm not singling any one out, but several have made similar comments to this.)  The burdon under penal is more on you, burden under environmental is more on the landowner.  But to say you wouldn't go there if it was marked is like saying you wouldn't steal a car if it was locked, plain and simple!  If you don't own it and it's not public, you have no right to be on it. 

 

What section of Penal law are you quoting?

[stoneam2006]

As I said before this isn't about ethics or right from worng....it's about NY states rediculous laws we all have to follow. I don't like most of them as I'm sure many of us don't but the fact is that it's a law. Law says the landowner has to post the land. That's it...it's tells you how to do it in black and white. someday when I own land I will go above and beyond to make sure my land is clearly posted from all sides including interior boders. That's my responsibility. That's the law and until it changes we have to live by them....and honestly if you have a penal law that says someone can be charged without posted signs I would like to read it please.

[mt624]

What section of Penal law are you quoting?

I'm not quoting law. I'm not an attorney or expert on the matter.  That's why I didn't post laws or specifics and didn't quote anything; it's up to the person to do their own research. I'm sorry if something came across differently.

 

When I had a trespasser charged by my sheriff, the sheriff did not require the land to be legally posted as it would need to be under environmental law.  The sheriff told me it did not need to be posted to have someone charged under (I believe) "penal" code, but please correct me if I'm mistaken. That was pretty much how a conservation officer later summarized it to me, the landowner has to post the property legally to charge trespass under environmental law.  Maybe under penal some "keep out" type signs or something similar are needed?  But both the sheriff and the ECO acknowleged seperately that I could have people charged for trespassing without having the property legally posted.  Maybe they know particulars about my land that I'm not realizing affect why that's possible.  Gate across driveway?

[Doc]

Lol .... I have seen some lot lines that the landowner cannot even follow without a blazed survey being performed. When you get a half mile or mile off the road and over a hill, I defy anyone to know exactly where the line is without extensive surveying equipment or a properly marked boundary. Also, if your land is not marked, good luck proving that someone was over the line. It pretty much comes down to your guess against his. And as far as I am concerned, the better marked, the more substantial your case. So as far as visual pollution from too many signs, I say.....It looks fine to me and it serves a purpose, and those that don't like it can stay the hell away from my property if they are that offended by it. I purposely paid extra to have the surveyors blaze the property line, and then I posted the hell out of it with permanent metal signs and I do whatever I have to do to maintain that marked line. It's my property, I paid a lot of money for it. I continue to pay a lot of money for taxes on it, and I want to know exactly where it begins and where it ends. Back in the old days, farmers paid a lot of money and put in some gosh-awful hours to mark their property boundaries. And they didn't do that to keep trespassers off. They did it because they considered their property an important asset that needs definition. Posted signs can provide the same definition today to eliminate conflicts. The old saying that good fences make good neighbors applies to posted property also.

[mt624]

I just did a quick Google search of NYS trespassing law and looks like under penal "unless such notice is given by posting in a conspicuous manner" or a few other means a person can lawfully enter unimproved land, so it looks like there is room for interpretation in there for sure if that's accurate.  I applaud you Doc for not leaving much room for interpretation of your boundaries!

Edited September 22, 2014 by mt624

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Well if you would like to know the Penal law section covering Trespass, here it is.  The readers Digest version is, if you want them charged and convicted on the first go around, post it legally.

 

 

S 140.00 Criminal trespass and burglary; definitions of terms.
  The following definitions are applicable to this article:
  1. "Premises" includes the term "building," as defined herein, and any
real property.
  2. "Building," in addition to its ordinary meaning, includes any
structure, vehicle or watercraft used for overnight lodging of persons,
or used by persons for carrying on business therein, or used as an
elementary or secondary school, or an enclosed motor truck, or an
enclosed motor truck trailer. Where a building consists of two or more
units separately secured or occupied, each unit shall be deemed both a
separate building in itself and a part of the main building.
  3. "Dwelling" means a building which is usually occupied by a person
lodging therein at night.
  4. "Night" means the period between thirty minutes after sunset and
thirty minutes before sunrise.
  5. "Enter or remain unlawfully." A person "enters or remains
unlawfully" in or upon premises when he is not licensed or privileged to
do so. A person who, regardless of his intent, enters or remains in or
upon premises which are at the time open to the public does so with
license and privilege unless he defies a lawful order not to enter or
remain, personally communicated to him by the owner of such premises or
other authorized person. A license or privilege to enter or remain in a
building which is only partly open to the public is not a license or
privilege to enter or remain in that part of the building which is not
open to the public. A person who enters or remains upon unimproved and
apparently unused land, which is neither fenced nor otherwise enclosed
in a manner designed to exclude intruders, does so with license and
privilege unless notice against trespass is personally communicated to
him by the owner of such land or other authorized person, or unless such
notice is given by posting in a conspicuous manner. A person who enters
or remains in or about a school building without written permission from
someone authorized to issue such permission or without a legitimate
reason which includes a relationship involving custody of or
responsibility for a pupil or student enrolled in the school or without
legitimate business or a purpose relating to the operation of the school
does so without license and privilege.

S 140.05 Trespass.
  A person is guilty of trespass when he knowingly enters or remains
unlawfully in or upon premises.
  Trespass is a violation.

S 140.10 Criminal trespass in the third degree.
A person is guilty of criminal trespass in the third degree when he
knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in a building or upon real
property
  (a) which is fenced or otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to
exclude intruders; or
  ( where the building is utilized as an elementary or secondary
school or a children`s overnight camp as defined in section one thousand
three hundred ninety-two of the public health law or a summer day camp
as defined in section one thousand three hundred ninety-two of the
public health law in violation of conspicuously posted rules or
regulations governing entry and use thereof; or
  © located within a city with a population in excess of one million
and where the building or real property is utilized as an elementary or
secondary school in violation of a personally communicated request to
leave the premises from a principal, custodian or other person in charge
thereof; or
  (d) located outside of a city with a population in excess of one
million and where the building or real property is utilized as an
elementary or secondary school in violation of a personally communicated
request to leave the premises from a principal, custodian, school board
member or trustee, or other person in charge thereof; or
  (e) where the building is used as a public housing project in
violation of conspicuously posted rules or regulations governing entry
and use thereof; or
  (f) where a building is used as a public housing project in violation
of a personally communicated request to leave the premises from a
housing police officer or other person in charge thereof; or
  (g) where the property  consists  of  a  right-of-way  or  yard  of  a
railroad  or  rapid  transit  railroad  which  has  been  designated and
conspicuously posted as a no-trespass railroad zone.
  Criminal trespass in the third degree is a class B misdemeanor.

S 140.15 Criminal trespass in the second degree.
  A person is guilty of criminal trespass in the second degree when:
  1. he or she knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in a dwelling; or
  2.  being  a  person  required  to maintain registration under article
six-C of the correction law and designated a level two  or  level  three
offender   pursuant   to   subdivision   six   of  section  one  hundred
sixty-eight-l of the correction law, he or she enters or  remains  in  a
public  or  private  elementary,  parochial,  intermediate, junior high,
vocational or high school knowing that the victim  of  the  offense  for
which  such  registration  is required attends or formerly attended such
school. It shall not be an offense subject  to  prosecution  under  this
subdivision  if:  the  person  is  a lawfully registered student at such
school; the person is a lawful student participant in a school sponsored
event; the person is  a  parent  or  a  legal  guardian  of  a  lawfully
registered  student at such school and enters the school for the purpose
of attending their child's or dependent's event or activity; such school
is the person's designated polling place  and  he  or  she  enters  such
school  building  for  the  limited  purpose of voting; or if the person
enters such school building for the limited purposes authorized  by  the
superintendent or chief administrator of such school.
  Criminal trespass in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.
 
S 140.17 Criminal trespass in the first degree.
  A person is guilty of criminal trespass in the first degree when he
knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in a building, and when, in the
course of committing such crime, he:
  1. Possesses, or knows that another participant in the crime
possesses, an explosive or a deadly weapon; or
  2. Possesses a firearm, rifle or shotgun, as those terms are defined
in section 265.00, and also possesses or has readily accessible a
quantity of ammunition which is capable of being discharged from such
firearm, rifle or shotgun; or
  3. Knows that another participant in the crime possesses a firearm,
rifle or shotgun under circumstances described in subdivision two.
  Criminal trespass in the first degree is a class D felony.

 

[mt624]

I agree 100% Culvercreek Hunt Club, thanks for the clarification!

 

Apparently at the time the sheriff must have considered my property improved or well enough marked. I'm glad you pointed that out, it must have been a loose interpretation and I mistook that for "law."   The last thing I want to do is misinform.

 

Is there a difference in the trespass law in terms of knowingly entering an unimproved property vs hunting it?

[jrm]

But both the sheriff and the ECO acknowleged seperately that I could have people charged for trespassing without having the property legally posted.  Maybe they know particulars about my land that I'm not realizing affect why that's possible.  Gate across driveway?

 

There are many different circumstances and very different situations being discussed in this thread. Rural land in the middle of the woods is very different than a backyard in the suburbs.

 

Posting is supposed to be a tool to inform potential trespassers that an otherwise non-obvious border exists. That's why all the EC and penal laws refer to "unimproved" or "vacant" land.

 

Having a driveway makes the land "improved" and thus does not require posting. Is it still a good idea to post? It can't hurt and may be helpful depending on exact location and circumstances.

 

Gate across the driveway? If someone is opening a closed gate or climbing/circumventing it, then I can easily see why the sheriff and ECO are willing to enforce trespass laws without the need for you to post.

 

Someone enters your driveway, comes in to your cornfield, climbs your fence... you do not need to post. Based on the info DEC has on their website up until recently, you wouldn't need to post to prosecute someone who was on a trail you brush-hogged. 

 

On the other hand, if that big oak tree in the middle of the woods happens to be on your property line and someone walks past it, you don't have much of a case unless the land (or at least that section of it) is posted. The law seems to give the benefit of the doubt in an unclear situation. This is a good thing. Although I know where my property line is, there are places where it isn't _exact_. I would not want to be arrested because a storm knocked down some trees I use as a point of reference and cause me to step 5ft over the line. 

 

What you can claim, the need to post and what enforcement options are available are relative to context.

[Curmudgeon]

Can we teach the coyote hunters hounds to read posted signs?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

There are many different circumstances and very different situations being discussed in this thread. Rural land in the middle of the woods is very different than a backyard in the suburbs.

 

Posting is supposed to be a tool to inform potential trespassers that an otherwise non-obvious border exists. That's why all the EC and penal laws refer to "unimproved" or "vacant" land.

 

Having a driveway makes the land "improved" and thus does not require posting. Is it still a good idea to post? It can't hurt and may be helpful depending on exact location and circumstances.

 

Gate across the driveway? If someone is opening a closed gate or climbing/circumventing it, then I can easily see why the sheriff and ECO are willing to enforce trespass laws without the need for you to post.

 

Someone enters your driveway, comes in to your cornfield, climbs your fence... you do not need to post. Based on the info DEC has on their website up until recently, you wouldn't need to post to prosecute someone who was on a trail you brush-hogged. 

 

On the other hand, if that big oak tree in the middle of the woods happens to be on your property line and someone walks past it, you don't have much of a case unless the land (or at least that section of it) is posted. The law seems to give the benefit of the doubt in an unclear situation. This is a good thing. Although I know where my property line is, there are places where it isn't _exact_. I would not want to be arrested because a storm knocked down some trees I use as a point of reference and cause me to step 5ft over the line. 

 

What you can claim, the need to post and what enforcement options are available are relative to context.

Just to be clear. A driveway entrance in to the front of  a 200 acre parcel would not necessarily classify it as improved. As you said many of these laws seem geared to give the benefit of the doubt to an accidental trespasser. 2 complaints I was personally involved with, the officer took into consideration the direction the person was coming from and what they would have seen to now the property was private/posted and they were trespassing. One time it was my Uncles land and his one neighbor and he had an agreement and no posted signs would be needed there. (both properties were posted). Well the neighbor didn't keep his signs fresh on the other sides of his property and up and that trespasser got a free pass from that one because of it.

[New York Hillbilly]

Hey Curmudgeon, do you really have coyote hunters coming onto your posted land? I have never run into that problem. In fact I have even asked fellas here to got get them on my property after deer season but they hunt with hounds and for whatever reason have never taken me up on the offer.  

 

 

 

 

[jrm]

Just to be clear. A driveway entrance in to the front of  a 200 acre parcel would not necessarily classify it as improved. 

 

Absolutely. That's why we have courts... rarely are two situations exactly the same. 

 

i would think that a driveway itself would be a clear indication of "improvement"... from the driveway. Someone enters via that driveway and my guess is that posting isn't necessary to claim trespass. Of course, there are likely exceptions to this.

 

Some distance down the road, or from a different side of the property could be a very different situation. 

 

As I mentioned, context is a big factor.

 

When I noted driveways and other improvements, I see how I didn't fully clarify my assertion. If you have a driveway (i.e. improvement) and someone enters your unposted land via that driveway, or cuts through your cornfield (improvement) that is trespass without need for posting.

 

If you have  "posted" signs every 10 ft or improvements or a fence - along ONE side of your property, that doesn't necessarily protect you on another side of your property. 

 

I have a neighbor with 40+ acres. His entire property is landscaped. House in the middle, no woods, all fields. He keeps a beautiful "lawn." I would argue that anyone on his property is trespassing with our without signs. It is pretty darn obvious to anyone that this is private, improved and occupied land.

 

My property, although a little smaller is mostly sloping woods. Only about 10-15% of my land - the part near the road - is "developed. From the road, I don't believe I need to post. House, driveway, storage buildings and other "improvements" make it painfully obvious this is private property. Same for the side which borders the neighbor mentioned above.

 

My other two sides, however, I have posted. They are in the woods with little in the way of landmarks to know what is where. It took me a while to learn the layout. First winter I was there, I was hiking through the snow and ended up crossing onto a different neighbor's property (who is also mostly woods). When everything is covered in snow and all the reference points are gone, it is easy to get a bit off course. While I don't want trespassers, I can understand how difficult it would be for a stranger to "know" exactly where the property line is in those woods - with or without a tax or survey map.

[jrm]

Since penal vs environmental law has been mentioned...

 

DEC gives some specifics about posting. Signs of a certain size with specific information posted a minimum distance. All I could find in the penal law is "conspicuous."

 

DEC will only get involved with hunting violations. For other trespass, you must contact local law enforcement.

 

So the question is:

 

Does a "conspicuous" "KEEP OUT" or "NO TRESPASSING" sign satisfy the penal law requirement? It would seem that an ECO would not have to honor such a sign, but would that still allow the local sheriff to act?

 

I don't know if anyone has a definitive answer, but it is an interesting question. It would also seem to clarify the comments where people did not want to put complete contact info on their "posted" sign - while it might prevent an ECO from acting, the sign alone _may_ still satisfy penal law requirements for posting.

[dbHunterNY]

my parent's farm has ag fields, fence lines, and stone walls.  we get all kinds of individuals up there for no good reason.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Since penal vs environmental law has been mentioned...

 

DEC gives some specifics about posting. Signs of a certain size with specific information posted a minimum distance. All I could find in the penal law is "conspicuous."

 

DEC will only get involved with hunting violations. For other trespass, you must contact local law enforcement.

 

So the question is:

 

Does a "conspicuous" "KEEP OUT" or "NO TRESPASSING" sign satisfy the penal law requirement? It would seem that an ECO would not have to honor such a sign, but would that still allow the local sheriff to act?

 

I don't know if anyone has a definitive answer, but it is an interesting question. It would also seem to clarify the comments where people did not want to put complete contact info on their "posted" sign - while it might prevent an ECO from acting, the sign alone _may_ still satisfy penal law requirements for posting.

From the DEC site

Q. What is posting under the Environmental Conservation Law?

A. People who want to control access to their property without personally seeing everyone who enters may post signs warning people to keep out. This may be done with simple "Keep Out" signs under the Penal Law, but for rural properties with many possible points of entry, a few signs may not be effective. Where activities such as hunting, fishing and trapping are concerned, the Environmental Conservation Law provides more specific guidelines which make posting more effective.

 

 

For my property I am going to post to the most stringent (EC Law) to satisfy both sections.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Culvercreek hunt club

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, Hillbilly -

 

The hounds run through here every winter. I've walked up to the trucks that show up following the dog's tracking devices and told them they can't shoot onto my property. I really am a Curmudgeon.

 

My neighbor - on a dirt road a mile or so away - had one pull up next to his house and shoot at a coyote from the road 30 yards from the front door onto his posted land. That one got ticketed and paid a good fine. Another neighbor found one releasing the hounds onto his posted land on an early morning. There were tracks that crossed the road after a light snow. He confronted the offender who became belligerent.

 

I've heard in VA that your dogs trespassing is the same as the hunter trespassing. The neighbor who had the shooter next to his house talked to an ECO. He says you are only allowed to demand that the dogs be removed.

[mt624]

From the DEC site

Q. What is posting under the Environmental Conservation Law?

A. People who want to control access to their property without personally seeing everyone who enters may post signs warning people to keep out. This may be done with simple "Keep Out" signs under the Penal Law, but for rural properties with many possible points of entry, a few signs may not be effective. Where activities such as hunting, fishing and trapping are concerned, the Environmental Conservation Law provides more specific guidelines which make posting more effective.

 

 

For my property I am going to post to the most stringent (EC Law) to satisfy both sections.

 

Agreed, and it is nice to know the sheriff or the ECO can handle the issue, especially for those who mentioned limited ECO's in their area.