Who needs a food plot?

[Curmudgeon]

About a decade ago, one of my neighbors got very upset at me. When I told him we shoot multiple does each year, he accused me of "killing the brood stock". Since that conversation he never came back and bought another tree. In that time we've taken probably 40 does off the property. These balsam firs show the result of "killing the brood stock". Actually, damage this winter was less than usual.

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2015 by Curmudgeon

[grampy]

I never believed in telling someone else what to do on their property,unless I was asked for an opinion. As long as it's done within the law,if you choose to shoot every doe you see,so be it. It's your land! You,more than anyone else,knows how many deer are there. And if they are doing damage,as it seems they are from your photo,keep shooting them. And don't worry about what the neighbor says!

[dbHunterNY]

yea they love nibbling on those Furs.  there's a reason we've got tall white pine and spruce with no furs at my parent's farm.  shooting doe is a touchy emotional subject for many with that mentality.  that's what I'm dealing with out this way.  did you or are you going to share that picture with him?  I know the possibility it won't make a difference, but something you work at a little at a time.

[G-Man]

I feel you pain..

[SplitG2]

It's hard for people to change their views on shooting does when they were taught not too.  Not all properties need doe harvest.  all I can say is look at your timber stands and if you can see through the forest and there isn't an understory you need to shoot some does.

[Five Seasons]

I never believed in telling someone else what to do on their property,unless I was asked for an opinion. As long as it's done within the law,if you choose to shoot every doe you see,so be it. It's your land! You,more than anyone else,knows how many deer are there. And if they are doing damage,as it seems they are from your photo,keep shooting them. And don't worry about what the neighbor says!

 

there's a place for having a conversation though. Telling and discussing are totally different. I know a lot of guys here have agreements with neighbors and others don't. Talking through the pros and cons should never hurt anyone.

[Doc]

If you have a group of deer wintering in a particular area, and a fairly harsh winter, you very well might see scenes like this. I remember a couple years ago, we had two blue spruce trees that the deer almost killed. That went on for about two consecutive years, and the trees sure have a weird shape to them now ..... lol. But no where else was there any sign of over-browsing. So was I witnessing over-population browse lines, or simply a few deer zeroing in on a favored winter food source? So, I'm not really sure that even an isolated picture can prove a point of over-population. I'm not saying that it is not the case in the area of this picture, but I do know that a wintering herd can absolutely make their isolated presence known in the resulting carnage on preferred food sources in small areas. Talk to most farmers and they will usually tell you that any deer is too many deer and they will show you crop losses to prove it.

 

The question is, if I react to something like this one  localized instance of over-browsing, and start blasting every doe I see, am I making a proper decision or simply over-reacting to a normal feeding habit of the local deer.

[growalot]

One neighbor is convinced every year that . All the doe have been shot off...they don't run cams and rarely are on their land unless in their Gator...They have a no doe and only " wall hanger" policy...So I avoid discussing my doe takes...and I'm happy they and a couple of others have that policy...they help balance the scale on a very heavily hunted area.

Edited April 17, 2015 by growalot

[Curmudgeon]

did you or are you going to share that picture with him?  I know the possibility it won't make a difference, but something you work at a little at a time.

 

Most of my Christmas tree customers are quite familiar with the deer problems. The see the damage and browse lines. Nothing will change that person's mind.

 

I feel you pain..

 

Most of my pain is economic.

 

 

The question is, if I react to something like this one  localized instance of over-browsing, and start blasting every doe I see, am I making a proper decision or simply over-reacting to a normal feeding habit of the local deer.

 

This is a combination of localized over-browsing within the context of too many deer in a large area. Quite a few local farmers and large forest owners get DMAP tags in this town. The most severe problem has been the nipping of fir leaders on short trees. There was a 50 degree day in early January which gave me an opportunity to spray repellant on the little ones. Since there wasn't any rain, the repellant seems to have worked all winter - at least until the snow got too deep for the deer to move.

 

What is interesting is that they hammer a couple of small, separated areas within a plantation of several acres while ignoring trees in between.

 

 

 

 

 

[growalot]

I don't have that problem...mine is the buck rubbing my pine,spruce to death...

[Five Seasons]

One neighbor is convinced every year that . All the doe have been shot off...they don't run cams and rarely are on their land unless in their Gator...They have a no doe and only " wall hanger" policy...So I avoid discussing my doe takes...and I'm happy they and a couple of others have that policy...they help balance the scale on a very heavily hunted area.

 

having a no doe and wall hanger only policy is just retarded. Proper heard management requires the harvest of does. There really isn't anyone in the business left who doesn't agree with that.

[growalot]

That may be, but seeing you have no knowledge of this area and the hunting pressure here...That's really an uninformed comment...no disrespect intended. If there were not these ppl in our area that insisted on no doe hunting...We would be having the same problems that 8M  next door have had...that being few doe tags due to an over kill on the doe herds...They are just now coming back and tags are going up again...thankfully for we had a large push of 8M guys hunting here for several years... See that is where local land owners know what is happening in their area and doing what is needed. I'm talking conditions where a 12 acre camp would have trucks lined up out of the drive and up the road 8-10 guys on 12 acres????? Well problem is ...they don" stay on those 12...100acres and 8 guys hunting a day and that is the norm here. 21 acres and 4 guys.Where 7 out of 10 hunt every season and now with cross bow easily 9 out of ten....This is a good buck area...major hunting camps turned mostly residential...but still many many camps...when they are paying taxes on these properties you can bet they are making the most out of there 3mos to hunt..and they all have friends and family...4 doe tags a person  plus possible 2 sign overs....Yes sir I welcome the no doe land owners here.

Edited April 17, 2015 by growalot

[Five Seasons]

I was under the impression that you were saying he was convinced they're all gone and incorrect about assuming that. My overall point was with regards to heard management, I wasn't trying to be specific. All that being said, if the only chance I have to fill my freezer is to take a doe I'm going to do it.

[dbHunterNY]

I don't have that problem...mine is the buck rubbing my pine,spruce to death...

 

I see that behind my house as I have a lot of cedar.

[dbHunterNY]

That may be, but seeing you have no knowledge of this area and the hunting pressure here...That's really an uninformed comment...no disrespect intended. If there were not these ppl in our area that insisted on no doe hunting...We would be having the same problems that 8M  next door have had...that being few doe tags due to an over kill on the doe herds...They are just now coming back and tags are going up again...thankfully for we had a large push of 8M guys hunting here for several years... See that is where local land owners know what is happening in their area and doing what is needed. I'm talking conditions where a 12 acre camp would have trucks lined up out of the drive and up the road 8-10 guys on 12 acres????? Well problem is ...they don" stay on those 12...100acres and 8 guys hunting a day and that is the norm here. 21 acres and 4 guys.Where 7 out of 10 hunt every season and now with cross bow easily 9 out of ten....This is a good buck area...major hunting camps turned mostly residential...but still many many camps...when they are paying taxes on these properties you can bet they are making the most out of there 3mos to hunt..and they all have friends and family...4 doe tags a person  plus possible 2 sign overs....Yes sir I welcome the no doe land owners here.

 

not saying you don't know what's going on.  if you don't communicate with your neighbors though and others in the area openly there's little hope of knowing what's truly being taken.  many see and pass on a deer that then crosses the boarder and minutes later here a shot.  they then assume it was that deer and it died.  other times they here a lot of shots and assume deer are hitting the dirt.  the big bad neighbor is shooting all the deer is the mentality when nothing is comfirmed.  maybe neighboring land pressure inhibits travel patterns onto your land and there's shooting but that doesn't automatically mean things are dieing.  if the conditions are what you stated you may want to communicate with everyone in the area more than normal.  not saying try to sway their harvest decisions.  just seek knowledge of what's going on or verify what actually has been taken.  from experience I've found many assumptions about what neighbors take or intend to take can be shockingly off.  too it may alleviate concerns the neighbors have with you.  even if you get along there's always concerns.

Edited April 17, 2015 by dbHunterNY

[growalot]

I do and that is why I know what is happening...beside the fact for some reason some guys seek me out to let me know whats been seen in harvests,,,As I said having a few no doe places around is a good thing here...I freely shoot doe as you guys know...well when they decide to show up during legal hours....These ppl help to balance things out. There is no shortage of ppl willing to shoot doe and by far way too many shoot...Oh it's still running  must have missed guys out there...I find them every year and also get the can I look and nothing is found...the crows gather and or the yotes group up to a howling barking yipping fest pin pointing where it ran to

Deer do not stay exclusively on those properties and I have a healthy woodlot and plantings so I have no concerns on what they deem necessary in their harvest choices.

[growalot]

sorry dbl. post

Edited April 17, 2015 by growalot

[Trial153]

Is this picture supposed to be validation of a 10 year old conversation/ argument? Because a picture on this scale shows and proves nothing. You can have a local herd winter in an area and do damage like this and yet similar habitat half a mile away can be un browsed.

[Doc]

 

........This is a combination of localized over-browsing within the context of too many deer in a large area. Quite a few local farmers and large forest owners get DMAP tags in this town. The most severe problem has been the nipping of fir leaders on short trees......... What is interesting is that they hammer a couple of small, separated areas within a plantation of several acres while ignoring trees in between.

Yeah, that is kind of what I was trying to say. Since you have independent knowledge of herd density in that area, you are probably in a pretty good position to analyze the conditions with much more info than just a picture of one isolated area of deer damage. As far as I am concerned no valid conclusions can be made from just a photo of deer damage without other pieces of local information and knowledge.

[Doc]

having a no doe and wall hanger only policy is just retarded. Proper heard management requires the harvest of does. There really isn't anyone in the business left who doesn't agree with that.

I do believe there are likely areas of the state where a no doe policy may be warranted. Even the DEC will occasionally shut areas off completely as far as antlerless permits. There are also other areas where permits are so hard to come by that they might as well be shut off. So, a "no doe and wall hanger only policy" may be a bit more well thought out than you might think. We have to avoid making blanket statements about all hunting attitudes, based only on our own limited observations on our own local hunting areas.

[Curmudgeon]

Ornithology sometimes uses the concept of population "sources" and "sinks". A source is an area in which a species can thrive and reproduce thus providing individuals to inhabit new areas and support the larger population. A sink is an area which draws in a species but has a net negative affect on the population. For a grassland species, a sink would be a hayfield which seems inviting but will result in a wasted nesting attempt when hay is cut during the nesting season.

 

The same idea applies to other wildlife. 4 Seasons has a coyote sink in the middle of a huge coyote source. I have a deer sink in the middle of a large deer source. My DEC biologist friend told me it did not matter how many does we killed on my 80 acres. We could kill them all and it would have virtually no affect on the local population. There are that many deer, and several large properties where no does are killed - one being 700 acres. There is a 120 acres across the road where no hunting is allowed we refer to as the deer preserve. You can see 15-30 deer out in the open during the gun season.

 

[ATbuckhunter]

Looks like you have your work cut out for you Curmudgeon. If you ever need another hunter, you know who to contact haha just kidding.