Genetics vs Nutrition

[growalot]

If you haven't seen this week's Growing deer TV...you should go and watch it...very interesting..especially to you FSW....That wasn't a dig.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

If you haven't seen this week's Growing deer TV...you should go and watch it...very interesting..especially to you FSW....That wasn't a dig.

LOL..No dig taken...I have proven time and time again that genetics are the most important...If you are trying to raise big deer!  You can feed a deer with poor genetics the top food available and everything he needs to show his top potential and thats what you will get.

 

For the average hunter nutrition is the most important because they are happy with what most animals will show if givin the right amount and kinds of food. Now an antler nut such as myself the average deer just wont cut it so i need the genetics to make me click.

 

Regardless of either....If the deer that has the greatest nutrition and the best genetics does not have time to show it you will still never see his best!  IMHO Of Course!

[growalot]

Did you watch that episode?

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Did you watch that episode?

Nope..Just shy of 20 years practice!

[growalot]

I thought not..lol

[dbHunterNY]

LOL..No dig taken...I have proven time and time again that genetics are the most important...If you are trying to raise big deer!  You can feed a deer with poor genetics the top food available and everything he needs to show his top potential and thats what you will get.

 

For the average hunter nutrition is the most important because they are happy with what most animals will show if givin the right amount and kinds of food. Now an antler nut such as myself the average deer just wont cut it so i need the genetics to make me click.

 

Regardless of either....If the deer that has the greatest nutrition and the best genetics does not have time to show it you will still never see his best!  IMHO Of Course!

 

oh not just your opinion but fact.  age trumps all, then genetics, and then nutrition.  I don't know how it is with your penned bucks, compared wild deer when it comes to progress in antler development.  I know wild deer can top out early and blow up late in life (big jumps at 5.5+).  the generalized percentages are 75% at 3.5 and 90+% at 4.5 yrs old.  That the same with your deer too?  with a deer growing body wise I'd think so.  I'd imagine you'd keep track of antler progress at different ages.

[growalot]

So I see you didn't watch it either....hhhmmmm

 

BTW ..should you decide to watch it...take special note that the deer in the UNIVERSITY  STUDY were 3yr olds..I'm on my PC now so here is the link to make it easier:

 

http://www.growingdeer.tv/archive/#/whitetail-antlers-and-genetics-fact-or-fiction

Edited July 29, 2015 by growalot

[phade]

Age and nutrition and then genetics last for most laymen in free range whitetails.

 

But, I will say this - top end (ie 175+) bucks grow in typically smaller confined areas, even within larger areas of "good buck" potential. Areas that have produced a giant typically produce another and another and another through the years, whereas ten miles down the road, bucks top out less (still very good bucks) and typically do not have bucks of that giant antler size.

 

There is a difference in good bucks and great bucks. There's nothing conclusive about this video and there is a long thread already on the QDMA forum where even there people are disagreeing. The video dances around making conclusions and leaves it open to persuasive interpretation (like marketing). What they're really doing is marketing to the 99% of hunters who care about management but likely are cornholed into limitations within their ground that they'll never be able to escape - meaning their expectations surpass reality. That has been part of the problem with QDM and the association has been smartly spending alot of time trying to re-set the expectations for the typical practitioner. Even if you have 500 acres in one parcel, your best deer might still not be a top end buck despite all of your best efforts. Yet, it's possible a 20 acre honeyhole has a history of offering encounters w/giants. But, the one common thing I see, is many land managers think all of the blood sweat and tears will result in Booners. Then they get burned out.

Edited July 29, 2015 by phade

[monkeyman2269]

I notice when the farmer plants corn or radishes the bucks are much bigger

[growalot]

ahhhh Phade a conversation based on watching the video....kudo's

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Well i lost it half way thru the video but did they not test all the deer from the same state just different areas of that state?  You cant do a test on something if you dont use the same playing field.  We have hundreds of different bloodlines we can breed with from all across the country and regardless of what you feed a buck thats maximum genetic makeup is a 140 inch 10 point then thats all he can be..Genetics!  You have to feed the blood and let that blood age if you are breeding deer in a closed setting. If you only have god givin in a certin area to work with then its like the southern tier and the northern tier.  Why do you think i drive about 3 hours one way every weekend to hunt the other end of the state?  I have great deer but they have better and thats because of soil and food. But where i hunt they also have a chance to get old to show the best that they can be!

[dbHunterNY]

I will but don't have time right now.  based on everything I know what I said holds true.  without age you can't have big deer relative to where you are, anywhere.  the only things we can try to control or influence to see great gains from in a free range population are age and nutrition.  however, consider too things a hunter that travels and a hunter that doesn't.  most hunters don't travel all that much to hunt in a different region of even the same state where soil quality and nutrition (or drought) are better.  now consider that most don't do much of anything to change to nutrition a great deal in your area.  if you put in food plots you will still and if you don't chances are you won't put in a enough to drastically effect nutrition.  although it does help, especially if a deer uses it exclusively, a couple small plots is some what of a drop in the bucket compared to the habits and constant of everyone else around you and the rest of your land.  usually a big deer that shows up on your property is due to genetics.  compared to all the other deer that have been to your property that are 2.5 or 3.5 it's the biggest for that age and that's their "top hit list buck".  it's still eating the same and the same age but it's got better genetics.  my buddy last year shot a free range buck that grossed over 200" in ohio, estimated at 5.5 years old.  most of the deer in ohio won't get that big, even in an area where age and nutrition was drastically changing for the better.  it had better genetics.  realistically with nutrition and age (6.5+ years old) being there you still won't commonly see a even booner.  I agree with other knowledgable people that 160" class deer is realistic average max potential across the country, despite many don't even see it.

[jjb4900]

so, if genetics and nutrition are considered by many to have the biggest influences on growing big deer, is there really a point in imposing antler restrictions in an area that historically have neither? I'm assuming the nutrition would have to remain consistent throughout the year(s) and not change drastically from year to year. Take the Catskills for instance, after 3 years worth of AR's, all we're really seeing as far as legal bucks are ones that would probably get a pass in many other areas of NY that do offer those two things.....

[phade]

ahhhh Phade a conversation based on watching the video....kudo's

 

I didn't watch the video. Scary, huh? I just know that this study is a modern reincarnation of the work Harry Jacobson did and knowing what Grant markets to.

Edited July 29, 2015 by phade

[DirtTime]

Great watch! Thanks for posting this growy. I have said for a long time, what's in the ground is a big deal on how well pants grow. Good soil will create better food for deer or any animal. I also liked the end about we have to help in land management. Not only planting and and taking care of the actual woods, but removing "EHEM", other 'things'.

[nyslowhand]

Although very interesting, really didn't find any new or novel findings from the study. With all due respect to the man, but I'm not a big fan of Dr Grant Woods.Seen numerous discussions he's had on deer biology and always come away with more questions than OMG revelations.

 

Doesn't everyone agree that supplemental (20% protein) feeding over a couple of generations level the initial weight/rack deviations within the 3 different soil conditions outlined in the video?? Think our resident deer-farmer will attest to this. Those of you QDM fans also know the caliber of your local bucks are upgraded (#/") by your efforts.

 

Video did raise a couple of questions in my mind regrading the nutrition vs genetics controversy:

Doesn't improved nutrition over generations also have a direct influence on genetics? Possibly more a single factor, Nutri-netics? Don't Wikipedia!

Isn't genetics solely responsible for a  pretty good buck, maybe in the 150/160" class existing in a poor soil, non-agr & unsupplemented feeding habitat?

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Although very interesting, really didn't find any new or novel findings from the study. With all due respect to the man, but I'm not a big fan of Dr Grant Woods.Seen numerous discussions he's had on deer biology and always come away with more questions than OMG revelations.

 

Doesn't everyone agree that supplemental (20% protein) feeding over a couple of generations level the initial weight/rack deviations within the 3 different soil conditions outlined in the video?? Think our resident deer-farmer will attest to this. Those of you QDM fans also know the caliber of your local bucks are upgraded (#/") by your efforts.

 

Video did raise a couple of questions in my mind regrading the nutrition vs genetics controversy:

Doesn't improved nutrition over generations also have a direct influence on genetics? Possibly more a single factor, Nutri-netics? Don't Wikipedia!

Isn't genetics solely responsible for a  pretty good buck, maybe in the 150/160" class existing in a poor soil, non-agr & unsupplemented feeding habitat?

Myself i do not see how nutrition can change blood. You can feed that thing gold and he will only give you the max of his genetic background. The only way to change a genetic makeup is to change a mom or dad into the pedigree of any existing whitetail....

[G-Man]

And thus the reason I hate comparing state vs state antler scores, soil types and street from land use all factor into size, in a pen with quality feed yes genetics will rule, but take that buck and put him in the wild and his horn size will decrease, genetics can't surpass the need for minerals and nutrition. In my opinon, planting something is better than nothing, and a safe area for game to hide in are the two easiest things for the average person can do.

[landtracdeerhunter]

Good soil properties lead to better nutrition equals larger deer and bigger racks. Of coarse, a smaller frame deer can support a large rack; personally found this out. Nutrition is the key folks. Of coarse, some of us know this already, LOL.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

And thus the reason I hate comparing state vs state antler scores, soil types and street from land use all factor into size, in a pen with quality feed yes genetics will rule, but take that buck and put him in the wild and his horn size will decrease, genetics can't surpass the need for minerals and nutrition. In my opinon, planting something is better than nothing, and a safe area for game to hide in are the two easiest things for the average person can do.

My deer get feed what comes off my land. No special sauce givin to them and i still have 250 inch bucks. The stress factor is no where near the same.  You have to have the blood before you can feed it and give it what it needs to flourish and show what its top makeup is.

 

Was just watching a show on growing weed for cancer patients and such and how they cross mind altering weed with a weed that is more of a body high. The plants get the same care but their genetics show 2 different things.  Gotta have the genetics if you are going to make something. After that its all about what you do to help show the best those genetics have!

[nyantler]

In the wild, as opposed to farm raised deer, age is the defining factor that allows for big antlered bucks. Both genetics and nutrition are very important in creating the potential for those bucks, but that potential can never be realized in a wild buck if he never reaches maturity. Having said that... if it's JUST genetics vs nutrition... it would be a tie... truly big antlers CAN NOT happen with the absence or a deficiency of either.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

In the wild, as opposed to farm raised deer, age is the defining factor that allows for big antlered bucks. Both genetics and nutrition are very important in creating the potential for those bucks, but that potential can never be realized in a wild buck if he never reaches maturity. Having said that... if it's JUST genetics vs nutrition... it would be a tie... truly big antlers CAN NOT happen with the absence or a deficiency of either.

True...You can feed a poor bloodline deer all he wants and he will only get so big. On the other hand you can not give a top bloodlined deer that has the genetic makeup to make a set of 250 inch antlers all he needs and he will never show you those antlers.

 

What came first. The fawn or the food?

[hunterman]

I hope coming in on this subject is ok .I think genetics and nutrition are both necessary to produce quality deer . I also know that a buck getting to live to his potential is less than good in any area[ unless fenced ].As a long time hunter I find you need good genetics by both the doe and the buck to get to the best. I hunt an area that is only 40 acres, but combined with the property bordering mine there is 200 acres. There are food plots in these acres .The hardest part is having everyone on the same page. When it comes to managing these areas for deer, its a different story. Allowing the deer to mature to there best potential is where the problem lies .Hunters are afraid if they let the ones with potential pass the next guy down the line wont . I think this more than anything is the reason hunters don't see bigger and better racks. I Am not saying all areas can get to 160 180 without genetics or nutrition , but a 4-5 year old buck is pretty impressive coming in to your stand Giving him the chance to spread his seed before he is taken helps more than we know , I am sure we all can agree to that . Cooperation among land owners and fellow hunters would go a long way in developing a great hunting experience For everyone. It would be beneficial to all including the deer in you piece of the pie. Love the woods. Tony

[jjb4900]

so, if genetics and nutrition are considered by many to have the biggest influences on growing big deer, is there really a point in imposing antler restrictions in an area that historically have neither? I'm assuming the nutrition would have to remain consistent throughout the year(s) and not change drastically from year to year. Take the Catskills for instance, after 3 years worth of AR's, all we're really seeing as far as legal bucks are ones that would probably get a pass in many other areas of NY that do offer those two things.....

[growalot]

The point is they are seeing bucks period...by not shooting just any buck more (supposedly) doe will be shoot and more buck will survive. I honestly do not think the "guys in charge" care a hoot about big bucks...they want more bucks.... they want NYS to be the buck state..... a tourist/ hunting  thing for revenue. With more bucks one has more chances of seeing bigger racks  even if it's 1 in a 100. I have very little confidence they care about any science involved in these regulations they are putting forth. They just want to reverse deer sex numbers.

Edited July 30, 2015 by growalot