True Hunters...

[Doc]

Lol .... So now we have a pretty good idea of what is true hunting and what isn't ...... or do we? How about guided hunts? Guys that go on those hunts where the guide does all the actual "hunting" and they just do the shooting ...... are they "real hunters"? There is a lot of game and locations where a guide is not a choice. You either use a guide or you don't hunt. Does that kind of a hunt disqualify you from being a "true hunter"?

I never have and never will go on a hunt that requires a guide even though for some species, it is the only practical way to go. And that is simply because of some crazy notion that I personally have concocted about being as totally responsible for the success or failure of my hunt as I possibly can. That to me is part of being a true hunter. I think I am probably in the minority on that, but that is my personal impression of what hunting is all about for me. However, I won't be telling you whether or not a guide is ok for you. You'll have to figure that out for yourself. We probably should not be telling other people about how hunting behind a fence is real hunting or not either. That's their choice isn't it?

But, don't get me started on canned hunts .... ;D  ;D  ;D

[ny hunter]

Doc I agree.A preserve or farm or fenced in area is not hunting.and should not be called hunting.But a guided hunt in open country is differnt.You can still come home empty handed.Because the guide knows the area really dos'nt mean you are gonna get an animal.

[G-Man]

Well guys, i won a fenced boar hunt all expences paid for 3 days for 2 people..an friend and i went we were there a total of 2 hrs and both had boars..I was told by the "guide/owner" that he had never seen 2 guys shoot so well ...i by no means considered this a hunt, it was a good opportunity to get some delicious pork in the  freezer.. neither of use mounted our "Trophy" and yes i would go back if i won another pig hunt i mean free meat is free meat!! Whats the difference if i win a ham at the supermarket or kill it myself.. I would not brag i killed a boar in a fenced area nor even say i hunted it. It is a strictly harvest situation for food. As for a deer hunt in a fenced area...I wouldn't pay to hunt deer out of state or in a fenced area..we have some great deer in this state and i enjoy the challange of getting a "good" buck.

[erussell]

I also wouldn't consider a Texas Ranch hunt, where there are 30 deer standing under a feeder hunting either. Now comes the real question that should get this riled up into a frenzy of name calling.    How bout the guys that put up a fence of posted signs on their 300 acres plant it full of food plots and don't let anyone else hunt it. The deer have zero pressure and walk around during the day time without a care in the world. And as soon as the shooting starts every deer in the area crams in there, Is that really hunting?

[bubba]

the deer have every opportunity to move out of the area. They are not fenced in.  If that piece of property holds them, then good for the guy who owns it. You sound a little envious

[Doc]

Doc I agree.A preserve or farm or fenced in area is not hunting.and should not be called hunting.But a guided hunt in open country is differnt.You can still come home empty handed.Because the guide knows the area really dos'nt mean you are gonna get an animal.

I think I had in mind one of these African safaris where the guide and his trackers locate the game for you, tell you what to shoot, when to shoot and even set up the shooting sticks for you ..... ha-ha. And then if the animal doesn't fall right on the spot, they do all the tracking. So how much of the "true hunting" does that client actually do?

How about the New Zealand hunts for tar, chamois (sp?), red stag, fallow deer, etc. All occur with free range animals, but how much hunting do the clients actually do?

Mountain goat hunts? ..... sheep hunts? ..... brown bear hunts? ...... Alaskan moose hunts? How about a fully guided and outfitted elk hunt? ....Not a whole lot different than that African safari. All these clients proudly display the mounts, but if those hunts were guided, how much true hunting was involved by the shooter. Are those guys "true hunters"? I think there are a lot of guides that might be the true hunters and they didn't even pull the trigger.

Now let's consider one of those Texas "box-blind" hunts with the feeder just outside the camera view. Even without any fences, are those guys "true hunters"?

This question of "true hunters" goes a lot farther than just fences. For the most part, this question about being a true hunter is probably a question that we shouldn't dwell on a whole lot. It really is a question that produces a lot more heat than it does unity. Except for the most extreme, offensive practices, it's probably best not to get involved with trying to decide who is the true hunter and who is not. No matter which way you move on that one, you are going to step on toes.

Doc

[WNYBuckHunter]

Why would anyone want to pay to hunt in a high fence.  I realize with hunting lands being tied up more and more, their is less places to hunt.  Paying big money to shoot a deer- not for me!  I love and respect the sport far to much to pay someone to shoot a farm raised deer.

theres alot of guys out there willing to throw their money at a hunt rather there own personal time and effort to "Hunt". i guess when the success rate is more on your side with a fenced in guided operation, it tends to attract a specific kind of person willing to partake and pay for it i guess...

from what i hear the market for it is doing pretty well however, it has its own breed of clientele.

The market for such hunts is doing just fine. In fact, there is a guy with 200 - 300 acres of land that is currently in the middle of fencing it all in with a 10 foot fence, in which he is going to sell hunts for big, farm raised deer that he already has. Ive been watching the progress, as I go by the place almost every day. Its literally right around the corner from my place.

I just hope that the existence of the place doesnt attract a bunch of people to the area thinking they might shoot an escapee or something.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Doc,

I guess if you want to look at it in a very literal sense...probably none of us are true hunters. I guess if I really want to evaluate what a true hunter is I would have to think of the native Americans or the pioneers of old. The ones that really had it as a survival necessity. For me...if I am not successful in my hunting I go home ...reach into the fridge and take something out for dinner. The very lives of my family do not depend on my skill as a hunter.

I think that is part of the draw for us though....keeping us in touch with that tradition...the history...the sense of accomplishment and thinking we could if we had to.

[Doc]

Doc,

I guess if you want to look at it in a very literal sense...probably none of us are true hunters. I guess if I really want to evaluate what a true hunter is I would have to think of the native Americans or the pioneers of old. The ones that really had it as a survival necessity. For me...if I am not successful in my hunting I go home ...reach into the fridge and take something out for dinner. The very lives of my family do not depend on my skill as a hunter.

I think that is part of the draw for us though....keeping us in touch with that tradition...the history...the sense of accomplishment and thinking we could if we had to.

That's what does it for me. That's why I became involved with hunting, trapping and fishing. Yes, I have strayed a long ways from the traditional equipment of those that went before us. But you know, I may have added a couple of yards onto my shooting distance, but even with all my fancy equipment, I still stay at 25 yards max bow distance, and not a whole lot more than 50 yards max when shooting with the shotgun. So the actual hunting skills haven't changed a whole lot. I guess if I have any equipment advantages over our predecessors, I sure don't use it. I really don't hunt a whole lot different than the indians or the pioneers. My stuff just looks fancier .....  ;D . I'm not impressed by those that make the longest shot, but rather those that can make the shortest.

So yes, the motives and needs may have changed, but for me the methods really haven't. Of course I am not nearly as good at it as they were back then ....  . For me the historical and cultural aspects of hunting do factor into my attitudes and values about what a true hunter is, not the guides, outfitters or select hunting areas that he can afford to create, buy, lease, or gain access to. I'll admit that I am probably in the minority on that kind of thinking, but when I saw the title of this topic, those are the things that kind of went through my head. That historical connection does factor deeply into the kinds of things that define a true hunter for me.

[nyantler]

Doc.. All those type of hunts you mentioned actually require a lot of leg work on the part of the hunter. If you've ever been on a guided sheep hunt you'd know what I mean... Hours and hours of walking in some of the worst terrain you can imagine..(usually on remote mountain tops) in some of the worst climate you can imagine... for most of those african and other hunts the guide is just a person putting you in an area where they think there might be game. Usually you still are required to do the stalking to get close enough for a shot. Some of wht you see on television is done to accomodate the camera crew as well, but the true guided hunts for big game in Africa and game like sheep, elk and moose are far more grueling than you can imagine. I would liken it more to bringing along a friend that knows the area a bit better than you.

[ny hunter]

There is no doubt we are all true hunters who do what we can to tag a trophy.This jerk never posted again so later for him and his web site and business.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

There is no doubt we are all true hunters who do what we can to tag a trophy.This jerk never posted again so later for him and his web site and business.

Noticed the same thing NY

[nyantler]

His ears must have been ringing!!!

[Doc]

Doc.. All those type of hunts you mentioned actually require a lot of leg work on the part of the hunter. If you've ever been on a guided sheep hunt you'd know what I mean... Hours and hours of walking in some of the worst terrain you can imagine..(usually on remote mountain tops) in some of the worst climate you can imagine... for most of those african and other hunts the guide is just a person putting you in an area where they think there might be game. Usually you still are required to do the stalking to get close enough for a shot. Some of wht you see on television is done to accomodate the camera crew as well, but the true guided hunts for big game in Africa and game like sheep, elk and moose are far more grueling than you can imagine. I would liken it more to bringing along a friend that knows the area a bit better than you.

The physical efforts and hardships such as climbing mountains or walking in tough terrain, or suffering climate extremes etc., may be good measures of physical fitness, but not necessarily a requirement of a "true hunter". At least I don't couple those together. In fact some pretty darn good hunters eventually have to substitute hunting smarter for hunting harder and probably deserve some recognition for even having that option. My opinion of a true hunter is kind of an all around measure of woodsmanship and extensive useful knowledge of what he is supposed to be hunting. If he's in excellent physical shape, that may make his hunting easier, but to me, that is not a primary measure of a skilled hunter.

I have never been on an African safari, but EVERY one that I have seen on TV (absolutely no exceptions), the guide managed the hunt, the trackers found the animals, the guide set up the shooting sticks and made the call on which animal to shoot, and all the hunter did was to follow instructions and stand where the guide told him and pulled the trigger (sometimes only after the guide explained to him where he had to hit the animal). And after he made the shot, the trackers took over and finished off the hunt. All of the things that the guide and the trackers did were the overwhelming majority of the elements of hunting. The hunter did the shooting, not the hunting. I will congratulate him on having gone on a hunt that I will never go on. I will admire whatever mounts and photos he comes home with. I will not downgrade his hunt. But, when we talk about "true hunters", he probably will not be the first one that comes to mind.

To one extent or another, all guided hunts seem to have some elements of the hunting part taken over by the guide to one extent or another. In my book, those clients are not really allowed to participate in the many of the true elements of the hunt. They are paying someone to hunt for them so they can do the shooting. There is nothing wrong with that if that's what you want to do, and in many cases you may not even have a choice, but when you are looking for a way to define a "true hunter", in my opinion, you need to be looking at individuals who actually do all the elements of hunting. That's just a thing that has always been stuck in my mind, and I will be the first to admit that many likely do not view hunting the same way that I do. But anyway, that is the thinking behind my comments above.

Doc

[erussell]

the deer have every opportunity to move out of the area. They are not fenced in.  If that piece of property holds them, then good for the guy who owns it. You sound a little envious

Kind of envious, I only have 200 acres posted  that I am going to go all out with food plots on this yr. Wish it was 300.    I agree, as long as they can run and not run into a fence, its fair chase.

[nyantler]

A good guided hunt (although they are not my thing) is really no different than if I took someone  tracking with me in the adirondacks to help them learn how its done... although I would be the guy with the knowledge and would be leading the way that wouldn't mean that the other guy was less of a hunter or would be hunting any less than me... He would still have to be just as stealthy and would still have to be proficient with a firearm... along with being in good shape. I think he would qualify as a true hunter. Even if on that particular hunt i saw the deer first and he killed it.. and even if I was kind enough to gut it for him and help him drag it out.

Be glad to take you with me sometime Doc and when we're done at the end of the day, successful or not you let me know whether you were truly hunting or not..

[Doc]

Be glad to take you with me sometime Doc and when we're done at the end of the day, successful or not you let me know whether you were truly hunting or not..

Thanks for the invite, but for me hunting is still a contest between me and the deer without the team approach. It's just a personal requirement for my satisfaction of the hunt and has been for quite a few years now. Win, lose, or draw, I want my hunts to be the results of my own efforts.

[Dinsdale]

Doc I agree.A preserve or farm or fenced in area is not hunting.and should not be called hunting.But a guided hunt in open country is differnt.You can still come home empty handed.Because the guide knows the area really dos'nt mean you are gonna get an animal.

I think I had in mind one of these African safaris where the guide and his trackers locate the game for you, tell you what to shoot, when to shoot and even set up the shooting sticks for you ..... ha-ha. And then if the animal doesn't fall right on the spot, they do all the tracking. So how much of the "true hunting" does that client actually do?

How about the New Zealand hunts for tar, chamois (sp?), red stag, fallow deer, etc. All occur with free range animals, but how much hunting do the clients actually do?

Mountain goat hunts? ..... sheep hunts? ..... brown bear hunts? ...... Alaskan moose hunts? How about a fully guided and outfitted elk hunt? ....Not a whole lot different than that African safari. All these clients proudly display the mounts, but if those hunts were guided, how much true hunting was involved by the shooter. Are those guys "true hunters"? I think there are a lot of guides that might be the true hunters and they didn't even pull the trigger.

Now let's consider one of those Texas "box-blind" hunts with the feeder just outside the camera view. Even without any fences, are those guys "true hunters"?

This question of "true hunters" goes a lot farther than just fences. For the most part, this question about being a true hunter is probably a question that we shouldn't dwell on a whole lot. It really is a question that produces a lot more heat than it does unity. Except for the most extreme, offensive practices, it's probably best not to get involved with trying to decide who is the true hunter and who is not. No matter which way you move on that one, you are going to step on toes.

Doc

As someone who has done unguided and guided hunts.....thats why you shop for the guide as much as the hunt. Or should. It doesn't take long for a pro to see if the hunter had a clue, and those that show more initiative are often given a longer rope.

I learned early on fortunately that you can find guides that still allow you to play out the hunt and have you make decisions as required.

The reason you see may guys get led around is most are not prepared for judging a trophy and get caught up with shooting tiny groups off a bench, instead of learning field condition shooting and trophy evaluation.

There are some trophies however that are very difficult and require expert decisions, hunters would have a very difficult time calling the shot on, especially once in a lifetime hunts for most(Elephant ivory weight; male Leopard, mature Lion). A wrong decision in some of these cases results in a fine and loss of the guides license if done incorrect and not up to standard.The difference in a male Tahr for a "trophy" vs average animal is about 1 1/2" on a 12-13" horn. Judged at 400 yds typically, sometimes longer.

Since some of these hunts are top dollar and quota for yearly take off is very tight....the outfitter must shoot only trophy animals, otherwise he screws himself in subsequent years depleting his resource for a finite area(although some are huge,and general animals plenty,trophy males are always in tight supply; true here in the US and abroad)

I did a self guided Caribou and most guy's in camp shot under sized animals because they were used to average Whitetail hunting; ALL the antlers looked big to them.(one idiot shot a cow! Legal,any 2 Bou', but on a fly-in trophy hunt?) I had well over 200 pics of antlers and scores and not one of them bothered to look at what was a real shooter. And there was ample supply to chase. LOL

Pick the right guide and/or outfit and I can guarantee you felt like you hunted.

I can say I have learned more from 2 guides I know hunting as pro's then any other way.....good guides can plain hunt and it doesn't really matter where they are.

[nyantler]

I know I will take some flack for this one.. but I have never thought sitting in a treestand was hunting... I have always thought of it as waiting. I'm not saying- guys shouldn't sit in treestands and shoot deer.. it's just my OWN opinion

[Doc]

I know I will take some flack for this one.. but I have never thought sitting in a treestand was hunting... I have always thought of it as waiting. I'm not saying- guys shouldn't sit in treestands and shoot deer.. it's just my OWN opinion

If that's your opinion, you're entitled to it. As I've already indicated in my previous posts, I have a few opinions that are "personal preference". I won't say that they are common beliefs or that they are even correct in the mainstream. They are just a product of upbringing and a very personal feeling toward hunting. My feeling that hunting must be totally a product of my own doing alone is just such an opinion. I don't say that anyone else has to abide by it, but it is just my individual feeling toward hunting. You are certainly entitled to the same kinds of individual feelings.

[nyantler]

I agree about the alone thing.. when I'm truly hunting I hunt alone..although I love going with a buddy using my camera...

[bubba]

I know I will take some flack for this one.. but I have never thought sitting in a treestand was hunting... I have always thought of it as waiting. I'm not saying- guys shouldn't sit in treestands and shoot deer.. it's just my OWN opinion

I would have to say if I put in my time scouting and patterning deer, and I put a stand up to WAIT, I have put in my hunting time before I put the stand up. 

[Doc]

I would have to say if I put in my time scouting and patterning deer, and I put a stand up to WAIT, I have put in my hunting time before I put the stand up.

I have to agree with that. It takes a bit of study and understanding of your prey to be able to position yourself within 20 yards (in the case of bowhunting) of the one spot that a deer will go, at a specific point in time with wind and cover conditions just right. This is particularly challenging when you consider the amount of alternate acreage where they could be. That is a bit of the familiarity and intimate understanding of the prey that I spoke of earlier that is all part of being a true hunter. And yes it is usually the result of a lot of pre-work, sign reading, observation and analysis. That's all a significant part of hunting too. In most cases that set of successful circumstances are not the result of luck, and the correct set of circumstances is also one of the things that one "hunts" for in order to provide success.

[bubba]

and I may add as i forgot getting in and out undetected so not to disturb them as you enter their living room.

[Daveboone]

It doesnt help that so many "hunting" tv shows depict canned hunts. Youthful hunters taking huge deer week after week make the everydays hunter (especially inexperienced) feel the only deer worth shooting are 41/2 yr old 180 score bucks, that would never typically be seen in their lifetime. The deer shown on the TV shows and taken at great expense at high fence operations are not typical of the breed, and to me look like freaks. Kind of like Dolly Parton showing up at a high school beauty show.Huge rack, not typical (sorry if a little coarse).