OK guy's Call your lawmakers

[arrowflinger]

Stiil the same amount of bowhunters.. they're just using crossBOWS now

Epic FAIL.  Do we need to revisit the definitions again?  Pay attention.

Crossbow hunters are just that.....crossbow hunters.

They do not necessarily have bowhunters best interests in mind....in fact, it is obvious in threads such as these that they do NOT have bowhunters best interests at heart.

[Doc]

OK fellas.. Steve said this is all a waste of breathe so I guess we have to stop..

And you know what? ..... Steve is probably right. We already have one hate-thread that is approaching 100 pages. Now we have two more threads trying for the same distinction. It seems that some guys can't get enough of the name calling and such.

[wztirem]

So now we can  differentiate between archery hunters.

We have Long Bow archers, Recurve Bow archers, Compound Bow Archers and Cross Bow Archers.

I forgot to include: Anne Archer, Amy Archer, Army Archer. "They do not necessarily have bowhunters best interests in mind....in fact, it is obvious in threads such as these that they do NOT have bowhunters best interests at heart".

[WNYBuckHunter]

Talk about threads that are a waste of time and words!  These crossbow threads are surely it.  I could care less if they were made legal during the bowseason for everyone and at the same time would never pay a cent to buy one of these contraptions for myself.  And it wouldn't matter if I was fit or pronounced legally lame by some doctor.  I have NO doubt that their implementation will have close to ZERO effect on hunter numbers and deer killed.  Waste of breath to argue anything having to do with them in my opinion.

If its such a waste, why do you always respond?  ;D

[WNYBuckHunter]

That would be like saying they have different rules for different types of guns, so some types are not guns. Your line of reasoning doesnt add up.

Great example....and precedent.  MZ and centerfire are both firearms, but we do not allow rifles in MZ season.

A crossbow may be an archery tool, but it is not a bow......and does not belong in a bowseason.

Thanks for proving my point!

I didnt prove your point, as I was not talking about season placement. There you go again twisting things.  :

[WNYBuckHunter]

Its not an opinion, its a fact. Just because states have different rules regarding different types of bows, doesnt mean any of them are not bows.

I wasn't talking about rules.

I was talking about definitions.

States' DEFINE a bow as long bow, recurve, or compound bow.  They DEFINE a crossbow as...well, a crossbow.

You are confused...it is your OPINION that a crossbow is a bow, but in state after state, it is not....BY DEFINITION. ;D

No, you are talking about rules. NY state defines a crossbow as a crossbow, that does not mean they are right. They also have some whacked out definitions of assault weapons. Doenst mean they are right. I am not confused at all, but you sure are delusional.

[nyantler]

OK fellas.. Steve said this is all a waste of breathe so I guess we have to stop..

And you know what? ..... Steve is probably right. We already have one hate-thread that is approaching 100 pages. Now we have two more threads trying for the same distinction. It seems that some guys can't get enough of the name calling and such.

Hate thread? Come on.. Anyone who actually can hate someone because of a forum discussion has a real problem. It's heated discussion and nothing more... if you don't enjoy it... start an "everyone hug each other" thread of your own. Nobody makes anyone post, read or respond to any thread here.. FREE SPEECH!! Who's with me??? 

[nyantler]

So now we can  differentiate between archery hunters.

We have Long Bow archers, Recurve Bow archers, Compound Bow Archers and Cross Bow Archers.

I forgot to include: Anne Archer, Amy Archer, Army Archer. "They do not necessarily have bowhunters best interests in mind....in fact, it is obvious in threads such as these that they do NOT have bowhunters best interests at heart".

Now that was clever!!

[WNYBuckHunter]

There is.

You only asked for one example, but I'll give you another.

2 years after VA legalized crossbows, the number of bow permits they sold had dropped by about 30%.

Crossbows steal bowhunters.  How does that help bowhunting?

Did you consider that maybe the guys that shouldnt have been in the woods with regular bows were most of that 30%? Remember what I said about the guys that dont have time or dont take the time to properly practice with their bows going out into the woods anyway? You are so blinded by what you think is a "real bowhunter" that you dont stop and think about whats best for the sport as a whole. The guys that go out there and make bad shots so that Bambi runs around the neighborhood with an arrow sticking through its neck or face just fuel the antis. Rather than have those guys injuring deer, I would rather see them make a good shot with a piece of archery equipment that they can be accurate with.

[SteveB]

Bill - you are right.

Just thought how low it was for someone to want to trade helping the disabled for something to further his own agenda. I'll say it again - pathetic.

You sure are getting a lot of mileage from one smart alek comment, Steve-O.

One remark that showed your true character - yes and thank you for doing so.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

  Just as we would define MZ and rifles as "firearms," but not allow a centerfire to be considered a muzzleloader .

But shotguns and rifles are allowed in the same season in many areas and fall under different restrictions......but are included in the same season.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

There is.

You only asked for one example, but I'll give you another.

2 years after VA legalized crossbows, the number of bow permits they sold had dropped by about 30%.

Crossbows steal bowhunters.  How does that help bowhunting?

they don't require a bow permit to hunt with a crossbow?

[arrowflinger]

  Just as we would define MZ and rifles as "firearms," but not allow a centerfire to be considered a muzzleloader .

But shotguns and rifles are allowed in the same season in many areas and fall under different restrictions......but are included in the same season.

Rifles are not allowed in a shotgun only county, just as crossbows are not allowed in bowseason.

Its that whole "superior weapon" thing.

[arrowflinger]

they don't require a bow permit to hunt with a crossbow?

No.....they require a crossbow permit.

So tens of thousands of VA bowhunters stopped buying bow stamps and started buying crossbow stamps instead.

[nyantler]

again because they would rather be crossbow hunters than compound bow hunters... and seeing how you wouldn't allow crossbows in YOUR season they had to make a choice...

[Culvercreek hunt club]

  Just as we would define MZ and rifles as "firearms," but not allow a centerfire to be considered a muzzleloader .

But shotguns and rifles are allowed in the same season in many areas and fall under different restrictions......but are included in the same season.

Rifles are not allowed in a shotgun only county, just as crossbows are not allowed in bowseason.

Its that whole "superior weapon" thing.

But we did, in the last decade, have a major portion of the state change to include rifles in historically shotgun only areas. That would seem like a comparable addition. did the addition of rifles add any hunters?....maybe a few...ones that couldn't take the punishment of a shotgun....(but a 20 is pretty light). so there was probably only a shift in implement....some prefered the rifles over the shotguns and started to carry them.

I am not sure of your age, Arrow, but you may have seen that shift in gun season in your area since you hunt some region 8 areas. I didn't hear any loud and focused debate from the shotgun hunters that grew up that way and only knew and prefered that. the addition of rifles gave a clear advantage over the shotguns. both firearms.....similiar to our discussion here.....both archery equipment with many beleiving the crossbow holds and advantage over the other archery equipment.

I hunt shotgun only area...areas that allow both....and really haven't noticed any difference in the season as the years have progressed. I expect that will be the same if the crossbows are included in Archery season

[nyantler]

There is.

You only asked for one example, but I'll give you another.

2 years after VA legalized crossbows, the number of bow permits they sold had dropped by about 30%.

Crossbows steal bowhunters.  How does that help bowhunting?

Are you sure it was 30%??????

State of Virgina pre and post crossbow numbers.

2003-2004 Vertical Archery licenses sold = 62072

2004-2005 Vertical Archery licenses sold = 61610

The first year for full inclusion.

2005-2006 Vertical Archery licenses sold = 54306

2006-2007 Vertical Archery licenses sold = 51647

2007-2008 Vertical Archery licenses sold = 48122

First year for full inclusion.

2005-2006 Crossbow licenses sold = 15320

2006-2007 Crossbow licenses sold = 20840

2007-2008 Crossbow licenses sold = 22243

It is estimated that about 7000 vertical hunters decided to try them out in the first year. And it is estimated that there are still about 10,000 using them to this day.

Total number of Archery licenses sold both groups included.

2003-2004 = 62072

2004-2005 = 61610

2005-2006 = 69626

2006-2007 = 72487

2007-2008 = 70365

Harvest numbers from both bow groups for the same years.

......../Vertical/Crossbow/Total Harvested

2003-2004 16538 596 17134

2004-2005 16055 802 16857

2005-2006 17368 5005 22373

2006-2007 17160 7069 24229

2007-2008 17335 8549 25904

The 2005-06 season is when the crossbow was fully included.

The numbers prior are crossbow harvests by disabled

permit holders only.

The 8549 deer harvested in the 2007-2008 season with a

crossbow account for 3% of the total deer harvested in the

state of Virginia.

Total number of deer harvested from all weapons and seasons

statewide in Virginia.

2003-2004 = 237,035

2004-2005 = 221,492

2005-2006 = 215,082

2006-2007 = 223,775

2007-2008 = 241,576

[arrowflinger]

I didn't hear any loud and focused debate from the shotgun hunters that grew up that way and only knew and prefered that. the addition of rifles gave a clear advantage over the shotguns. both firearms.....similiar to our discussion here.....both archery equipment with many beleiving the crossbow holds and advantage over the other archery equipment.

It is not surprising that gun hunters wanted extra advantage.

But, according to surveys, there is no desire for crossbows from bowhunters.

[wztirem]

That puts an end to that Cavalier statement by the af.

[arrowflinger]

Are you sure it was 30%? ??? ??

22%....you should get the point.

[wztirem]

Are you sure it was 30%? ??? ??

22%....you should get the point.

Is this the new math?

[arrowflinger]

Are you sure it was 30%? ??? ??

22%....you should get the point.

Is this the new math?

It was reasonably close, off the top of my head.

And it does not diminish my point....Do you think a reduction of bowhunters of 22% is a good thing?

[wztirem]

Archery sales increased! What is wrong with that? Deer kills increased. The Virginia DNR's mandate to control deer populations is working.

The NYDEC will take whatever steps are needed to fulfill their mandate (control deer populations,preserve habitat and protect the public) to offset the ever diminishing number of deer hunters licensed to control deer populations. If it includes the introduction of crossbows into the regular archery season it will be done.

[arrowflinger]

Archery sales increased! What is wrong with that?

What is wrong wth that is that it was at the expense of bowhunters.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

At the expense of bowhunters?...and there in lies the problem....we are hunters...the attitude to seperate us so totally bu what we hunt with will hurt the sport more than any included weapon ever could