I'd really hope deer hunters start rallying together....

[gjs4]

In light of the recent press release on antler restrictions (and this post is not about those) something should be glaringly apparent to all.....

 

The NYSDEC does not do their job or care about your opinion.

 

Surely there are a few that may be formulating a reply as to how you feel the state is doing their job but hear me out, think, consider then reply.

 

The antler restriction release from the DEC was whole fully borrowed from a private organization (NYSCC) . This organization is supposedly to represent the sportsman's interest but the only way to be part is to pay their fee.  I see two big strikes there. Imagine the DEC released a statement saying Antler Restrictions are coming based on support of the QDMA. Most associate the QDMA with trophy deer management and those opposed to the idea would cry out as this would be the obvious outcome and intention of their efforts, right? You could use PETA with anti hunting legislation or the NRA with pro-gun legislation if those keep the internal politics down. So why the hell is a private group taking the DEC's ear for direction on what people want if they don't include anyone but their like minded members? the airbow thing that is a big law making issue for them and come from nowhere is made by a NY company and was taken to the DEC for review. Do we need that and why are they getting DECs ear but we as hunters do not?

 

Next- lets get to the numbers. This "group" sent out 7000 surveys (random selection organization information was not provided), 2720 were replied. Mathematical variation was utilized to skew these numbers to represent the number of respondents to proportion for the number of hunters in the area. The data was also managed by Cornell University. A few points come to mind here.....why were there only 7000 sent out and since when is 1 out of 277 opinions enough to represent the majority. I took stats in college and I understand sample pools but when the heck is more data going to hurt here? If everyone could have the option to participate in the survey using an online portal with their Hunter License number (low tech here) the same numerically gauged metric questions could be answered by all if they so choose. Don't participate- don't cry. Why the heck is Cornell handling all these hunter things at our cost (yes your wildlife dollars go there) ...many less biased firms could do this and cheaper. Thinking if I put together a survey with 2700 responses backing the shortening of gun season the DEC would back it? Would you?

 

We have a big game biologist (deer & bear for the most part) for each of the 9 regions. Two-three more at the Albany level. We have no dedicated deer biologists in a state of 700,000 resident and 50,000 non resident hunters (per the DEC webpage). Not one. There was in 2012 $46,600,000 in hunting license gross sales. Would be a reasonable assumption that 9 of 10 licenses are being sold to someone who hunts big game. Most are not hunters as well.

 

We continually hear about only 40% of bg hunters report their kills? Why the heck don't the other 60% get cited? In a state that will fine you for a long list of silly things how is this opportunity being passed? After all their revision's of the harvest reporting system they should at least force folks to do that...or is it better to say that the numbers are 60% computed?

 

Why are there 4 year long deer management plans that are so strictly adhered to? We had two of the worst winters on record here in wNY in 14 & 15. The deer management plan did not change in accordance....but yet the methods to kill more deer was bumped up to harvest even more. What sorts of review or discussion took place with these changes (antlerless only this year)? How is it they don't even have their act together with what to do on deer management but will be leasing a black and white four year management plan in just a few months?

 

I always email may thoughts in when something is posted on their page allowing comments for review but who reads them? Where is the data on what was read and how it quantifies? Anything decision related should have a number/metric vote system. Even if the electoral college votes different than my choices most times here in NY someone can provide a number (BS or not) on what the actual public vote was.

 

PA will pay you $25 for each coyote you kill. NY says coyotes don't effect the deer population and has shortened the season multiple times in the past few years.

 

I love how NYON gets all the scoop before we as hunters do....a private newspaper. Right up there with the DEC selling advertising space in the syllabus which lifetime license holders do not receive anyway.

 

Here is my big one- How does the DEC figure its population numbers for a given WMU? You can say 9F is above where it needs to be but how is it know what the population is and that it is too high? How many nonhunting areas/interfaces effect this deer data as well?

 

Some region 9 examples - minding this is the most densely hunter populated area of the state.

 

There are 19 wildlife management areas in this region. About 60% of the WMAs are less than 300 acres. Some of these are non-hunting and many have water or marsh that cannot be hunted.  I did note anything on food (agriculture) or big game species habitat development. Haven't noted this for any WMA in NYS as a matter of fact. In the great scheme of NY discussing all the wild properties that can be accessed (and are secured and maintained with hunter dollars) many cannot be hunted or are not great places to hunt (IE the ADK park). Ever go to Ohio and see what your $125 nonresident license gets you? Helpful staff, tons of public (most of which is closed to nonhunters during season as it paid for by hunters) with food sources and continual management.

 

We have 19 Conservation Officers in Region 9. These folks handle everything from environmental dump & spills violations, to open fires, drug busts, fishing & game laws. This is 5354 square mile area meaning each one has to cover nearly 300 sq miles IF theyre on duty and related to fisheries and wildlife enforcement (and mind you hunting is only half of those two words).

 

SO what do we get for our dollars? Why are their judgement casting surveys (and there have been a few big ones within the past 10 years) using such a ridiculously small sample pool? How are they even serving us as hunters? Sure we can pay for parks for hikers and bird watchers, salamander surveys, etc. but some return on investment would be nice or at least take our opinions into account. The inmates cant run the asylum and there will always be someone left unhappy but...guys/gals we are getting screwed here. Bad. User satisfaction has to be part of what the state reviews and they have to be able to justify what they're doing in regard to game resources, research and management.

 

Do I have the answer? Perhaps- I think we as hunters need to ask for substantiation on numbers provided, all of our opinions to be heard and to be part of the decision making process. Internally we need to get off our duffs and ask for more.

 

You're a champ if you read all this....thanks for your ear...hoping we can rally and force some positive changes out of this mismanaging organization.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[growalot]

Preaching to the choir...the more we hunters as individuals speak up speak out,the more heat the DEC feels. You managed to touch on most every thing we have individually been beating our drums about.

[gjs4]

So what thoughts do you have to get us out of this current rut besides the drum solos?

 

 

[growalot]

More public out cry along with the emailing. I truly believe that the public both in News and web site disapproval of the doe only forced a drop. The open campaign to not support poor policy...

The out cry in print and contacting over western NTH. Not needing a law to make the majority pass young buck..perhaps they are actually looking a the given evidence,over what organizations are telling them...if so then we are seeing baby steps now??

[gjs4]

Thanks for the reply. In agreement with more vocalization. We need townhalls and everybody to have a line of contribution. Its like getting robbed and theif calling it a legit donation.

 

I don't want to get into the issue by issue thing (and trust me I have opinions there) and did not know the doe only thing was formally dropped.

 

I was also just beside myself to see that Kip Adams of the QDMA was quoted as commending the DEC's efforts with this whole thing. I swear they throw chit at the wall and see what sticks...as well as lie and know they cant be touched.

[G-Man]

Well your last point is the biggest, the dec is not a game management organization it is an enviromental one. You cannot get the changes you want and nys needs until an ammendment is made to nys constitution giving the right to hunt and fish and creating a game management agency to run it. To many dollars are diverted to clean up air and or water or land,if they can prove it benifits wildlife Roberson Pittman funds are available. And cleaning up the enviroment always benifits wildlife.

Comparing state that have game departments to nys is not comparing apples to apples.. that is the main reason why out hunting research and development and enforcement suffers....REMEMBER WE DO NOT HAVE A SEASON NEXT YEAR TILL THE LEGISLATORS VOTE YES TO IT...LIFETIME LICENSE OR NOT... why invest monies and personal to a sport that only exists year to year???

[DirtTime]

G-Man has a solid point. Hunting as it is right now is a 'privilege', not a 'right'. To have an amendment will never happen though. They keep taking away from the Constitution, I am sure they won't add anything.

 

Being vocal and making our thoughts known is the best way to go. Start petitions like Mike Rossi did for dove hunting. I posted a link for free online petitions;

http://huntingny.com/forums/topic/31107-free-on-line-petitions/

.

 

As for the numbers they come up with and people who don't report deer kills? I don't see that changing any time soon. Too many skirting the laws and not tagging deer unless they absolutely have too.

The only way to get a truly united front is to get the people who break laws willingly to stop. 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

They are at the mercy of the farmer and the Ins adjuster. Season limits will be set by the number of complaints. If hunters just quit buying their tags for a year you can bet they would listen to your voice.

[gjs4]

Rob and Gman you are absolutely correct it is a privilege and a right- it is also where they get their dollars from to pay wages and do all of these other no hunting things. Even if 10% said they're not buying or everyone purchased at the last minute we would rumble the house in Albany.

I don't think this is what you're saying but they would not have a likely desired outcome to ban/stop hunting so conformity isn't of concern. We have more control over them than they do us provided our ranks can gather and speak in some regard. That inability is why their fly by night has become the norm. The SAFEACT was similar IMO- most sat on their duffs saying it can't ever happen... and viola... It did.

Great idea on the petition. Feeling like I am going to start one of those online surveys. Ultimately FSW is spot on- dollars get heard first.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[growalot]

Problem in that are us LT holders...but I believe that already work in the doe only flub. I may be wrong  correct if so, but didn't the ML sales drop? I know they were expecting the crossbow in only gun and last 2of archery would stabilize any incurring drop but it did in only one or two didn't it?

[gjs4]

I just made a quick beta survey on Survey Monkey but this site wont allow me to c&p the link. SM limits you to 10 questions does anyone have another free site to use/suggest with more options?

[Merlot]

Establish a fish and game dept of DEC and make sure those people focus on that. Another branch of DEC can focus on environmental and law enforcement. What I see is DEC people are doing things other than what they were trained to do. Would be nice if DEC would consider the views of those that purchase licences more abundantly.

Someone here mentioned computer surveys as being a way. Sounds good to me.

[gjs4]

I just finished a much better and bigger (though all multiple choice for quick easy quantifiable completion). It's in editorial review and beta testing. Hope to have the link up tonight.

Have you ever noticed all the different areas wildlife dollars get out and tied up? Hunter surveys have their own account- and that's what pays Cornell for their review and "contribution". Good ole misappropriated NYS.

[gjs4]

Starting new thread with the new survey

 

thank you for all the help

[The_Real_TCIII]

Just completed the survey

[Larry]

I’m making the assumption that the NYSCC is the New York Conservation Council. The NYSCC did not commission the surveys it was the DEC with the Demographics Group from Cornell. That’s just to let you know.

[Five Seasons]

Incorrect. Crossbow coalition

[Larry]

are you sure its not New York State Conservation Council. when I google NYSCC I get the conservation council and I went in 5 pages and no cross bow coalition.

[gjs4]

I meant the New York State Conservation Council.

 

Larry- Thanks for the clarification.

 

Even if the DEC commissioned it- why use this group and not another or the logical mass survey? I find it ironic that their findings mirror their take..hence my comments about knowing where PETA, QDMA or another group would be called out for a "likely result".  Per my eyes his particular group is a fee to join and pulls its crossections from clubs... who the heck belongs to a club anymore? I am sure the mean age of club members and that of hunters differs too.... Our opinions should be desired, vocalized and given a fair channel without bias to be presented. There will be a paradigm when any liaison is utilized or received (going back to Cornell). Our fees pay for this...lets ask for the best service possible...not the friends of friends plan.

[chas0218]

In light of the recent press release on antler restrictions (and this post is not about those) something should be glaringly apparent to all.....

 

The NYSDEC does not do their job or care about your opinion.

 

Surely there are a few that may be formulating a reply as to how you feel the state is doing their job but hear me out, think, consider then reply.

 

The antler restriction release from the DEC was whole fully borrowed from a private organization (NYSCC) . This organization is supposedly to represent the sportsman's interest but the only way to be part is to pay their fee.  I see two big strikes there. Imagine the DEC released a statement saying Antler Restrictions are coming based on support of the QDMA. Most associate the QDMA with trophy deer management and those opposed to the idea would cry out as this would be the obvious outcome and intention of their efforts, right? You could use PETA with anti hunting legislation or the NRA with pro-gun legislation if those keep the internal politics down. So why the hell is a private group taking the DEC's ear for direction on what people want if they don't include anyone but their like minded members? the airbow thing that is a big law making issue for them and come from nowhere is made by a NY company and was taken to the DEC for review. Do we need that and why are they getting DECs ear but we as hunters do not?

 

Next- lets get to the numbers. This "group" sent out 7000 surveys (random selection organization information was not provided), 2720 were replied. Mathematical variation was utilized to skew these numbers to represent the number of respondents to proportion for the number of hunters in the area. The data was also managed by Cornell University. A few points come to mind here.....why were there only 7000 sent out and since when is 1 out of 277 opinions enough to represent the majority. I took stats in college and I understand sample pools but when the heck is more data going to hurt here? If everyone could have the option to participate in the survey using an online portal with their Hunter License number (low tech here) the same numerically gauged metric questions could be answered by all if they so choose. Don't participate- don't cry. Why the heck is Cornell handling all these hunter things at our cost (yes your wildlife dollars go there) ...many less biased firms could do this and cheaper. Thinking if I put together a survey with 2700 responses backing the shortening of gun season the DEC would back it? Would you?

 

We have a big game biologist (deer & bear for the most part) for each of the 9 regions. Two-three more at the Albany level. We have no dedicated deer biologists in a state of 700,000 resident and 50,000 non resident hunters (per the DEC webpage). Not one. There was in 2012 $46,600,000 in hunting license gross sales. Would be a reasonable assumption that 9 of 10 licenses are being sold to someone who hunts big game. Most are not hunters as well.

 

We continually hear about only 40% of bg hunters report their kills? Why the heck don't the other 60% get cited? In a state that will fine you for a long list of silly things how is this opportunity being passed? After all their revision's of the harvest reporting system they should at least force folks to do that...or is it better to say that the numbers are 60% computed?

 

Why are there 4 year long deer management plans that are so strictly adhered to? We had two of the worst winters on record here in wNY in 14 & 15. The deer management plan did not change in accordance....but yet the methods to kill more deer was bumped up to harvest even more. What sorts of review or discussion took place with these changes (antlerless only this year)? How is it they don't even have their act together with what to do on deer management but will be leasing a black and white four year management plan in just a few months?

 

I always email may thoughts in when something is posted on their page allowing comments for review but who reads them? Where is the data on what was read and how it quantifies? Anything decision related should have a number/metric vote system. Even if the electoral college votes different than my choices most times here in NY someone can provide a number (BS or not) on what the actual public vote was.

 

PA will pay you $25 for each coyote you kill. NY says coyotes don't effect the deer population and has shortened the season multiple times in the past few years.

 

I love how NYON gets all the scoop before we as hunters do....a private newspaper. Right up there with the DEC selling advertising space in the syllabus which lifetime license holders do not receive anyway.

 

Here is my big one- How does the DEC figure its population numbers for a given WMU? You can say 9F is above where it needs to be but how is it know what the population is and that it is too high? How many nonhunting areas/interfaces effect this deer data as well?

 

Some region 9 examples - minding this is the most densely hunter populated area of the state.

 

There are 19 wildlife management areas in this region. About 60% of the WMAs are less than 300 acres. Some of these are non-hunting and many have water or marsh that cannot be hunted.  I did note anything on food (agriculture) or big game species habitat development. Haven't noted this for any WMA in NYS as a matter of fact. In the great scheme of NY discussing all the wild properties that can be accessed (and are secured and maintained with hunter dollars) many cannot be hunted or are not great places to hunt (IE the ADK park). Ever go to Ohio and see what your $125 nonresident license gets you? Helpful staff, tons of public (most of which is closed to nonhunters during season as it paid for by hunters) with food sources and continual management.

 

We have 19 Conservation Officers in Region 9. These folks handle everything from environmental dump & spills violations, to open fires, drug busts, fishing & game laws. This is 5354 square mile area meaning each one has to cover nearly 300 sq miles IF theyre on duty and related to fisheries and wildlife enforcement (and mind you hunting is only half of those two words).

 

SO what do we get for our dollars? Why are their judgement casting surveys (and there have been a few big ones within the past 10 years) using such a ridiculously small sample pool? How are they even serving us as hunters? Sure we can pay for parks for hikers and bird watchers, salamander surveys, etc. but some return on investment would be nice or at least take our opinions into account. The inmates cant run the asylum and there will always be someone left unhappy but...guys/gals we are getting screwed here. Bad. User satisfaction has to be part of what the state reviews and they have to be able to justify what they're doing in regard to game resources, research and management.

 

Do I have the answer? Perhaps- I think we as hunters need to ask for substantiation on numbers provided, all of our opinions to be heard and to be part of the decision making process. Internally we need to get off our duffs and ask for more.

 

You're a champ if you read all this....thanks for your ear...hoping we can rally and force some positive changes out of this mismanaging organization.

Well said, My father and I have had enough over the last few years. We were never the type of people to say ill about anyone but we are fed up and making our voices heard even tho we are only 2 people. We are hoping others around us are doing the same.

Edited February 23, 2016 by chas0218

[WNYBuckHunter]

I truly believe that the vast majority of mismanagement will keep on going until the day that NY has a real fish and game department, and not just a division of DEC. The DEC wears far too many hats. Like the old saying goes, jack of all trades, master of none.

 

Just one thing Id like to point out, PA does not have a bounty on coyotes.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I truly believe that the vast majority of mismanagement will keep on going until the day that NY has a real fish and game department, and not just a division of DEC. The DEC wears far too many hats. Like the old saying goes, jack of all trades, master of none.

 

Just one thing Id like to point out, PA does not have a bounty on coyotes.

The bounty made it thru the house..Not sure if it made it thru the next steps but have not heard of a shoot down either?  Will be interesting to see if Ny falls in line if other states adopt?

[growalot]

I knew that and looked it up Not seeing anything past 2013

[Five Seasons]

are you sure its not New York State Conservation Council. when I google NYSCC I get the conservation council and I went in 5 pages and no cross bow coalition.

 

could be. i just know the coalition uses the same acronym.

[nyslowhand]

NYCC is the Xbow coalition. NYSCC is org referred to in this thread. And yes, both solicit dues for membership. Mainly to fund websites, supplies, etc and hopefully some lobbying in Albany.

Edited February 23, 2016 by nyslowhand