Rescinding antlerless in early bow in 8n

[stubby68]

5 hours ago, growalot said:

Still you don't get why many of us boycotted ...and I am actually tired of explaining to you...because...You prefer to assume the boycott was only due to the no buck...We couldn't possible have a more important logical reason for showing the DEC our displeasure in a faulty ill planned scheme.  That is the late ML if you buy one...I do not always buy one...Now wouldn't it have been grand if they had actually thought that plan out and offered a buck TAG FOR THOSE WILLING TO USE THERE'S EITHER OR...BUT ALAS THERES MY POINT YET AGAIN...THEY did not...WHAT THEY DID WAS  WARN US...FILL THE QUOTA(WITH OUT TAGS) OR YOU'LL SEE GUNS IN YOUR SEASON...NOW THAT IS WHAT THEY DID...wHO GOT SLAPED IN THE FACE?....HHHMMMMM...sorry cap loc

                            We know why you boycotted. You have said it many times you wanted to beable to kill a buck. Heck in this quote you say if I shot a doe with my tag they should give you a replacement buck tag to make sure you get a buck. You keep saying they will not give you the tags. You want all tags handed to you oct 1 not wait till nov 1 for 2 of them. What does it matter when they give you the tags you all showed you would not use them any ways. If they gave you all the tags for oct 1 and and said the first 2 weeks were antlerless only would you have been good with that? No because you want to kill those bucks first. take the doe after your buck if you go back out, have the time , or get the chance.

                  Actually what they did was give bow hunters the chance to prove they were not the trophy hunters they are thought to be.  Bow hunters said no thanks we want our bucks.

[WNYBuckHunter]

14 hours ago, ....rob said:

You misread what I said:

 

 

The thing I see, and I'm sorry, is there seems to be no common ground from bow hunters. There's no give by many. They want it all about them and that's not fair IMO. Two seasons ago I was bow hunting in the regular season because all I had was a bow. A couple state lands I hunted the gun hunters didn't give me the stink eye because they say me walk in or out with a bow. But, many bow hunters don't want even allow a crossbow into the whole of their season.

 

The bottom line is to reduce doe numbers they have to be killed. Use a trad bow, a compound, a crossbow, a rifle, a shotgun, or a ML. Use w/e you want that's legal. We either do our part or we don't. I have tags for 2 doe and my either or tag. Trust me, I have a goal for this season, doe early, try for a good buck for a while, then fill up the rest of the freezer with w/e walks in from of me I have tags left for.

Every year people want things just so. That's never going to happen. There will never be a peace and harmony between DEC and hunters.

Heres the thing I see. Guys like you that rattle off with this bow hunters dont give an inch nonsense do two things. First, you categorize all bow hunters right in with the hardcore minority that doesnt want to allow crossbows. Thats just painting with a broad brush, and ignorant. There are plenty of guys that bow hunt that support crossbows, full inclusion, and helpped support groups like NYCC to get crossbows legalized. Second, you put anyone that hunts bow season into the category of "bow hunter", like its the only thing they do. The vast majority of guys that bow hunt also hunt gun season and many hunt ML season as well. I started bow hunting to extend my season. It doesnt really matter if I take my does in bow season or gun season, I get to a certain number of deer in the freezer and I stop killing does anyhow.

 

You sit here and spout your lines about how everyone should get along, we need to have a united front, etc etc, but all you do is throw bow hunters under the bus, classify them all as unreasonable elitists, etc.

 

The real bottom line, in this subject, is that the most effective weapon should be put to use to solve the issue. The DEC tried playing politics with it, and it didnt work.

[WNYBuckHunter]

13 hours ago, G-Man said:

 Why isn't early season the time to remove doe? That is an antiquated idea . Of a doe gonna bring a buck by during rut.. 

In over populated areas the best idea is to reach your doe removal quota early.less doe means more intense searching by bucks for a receptive doe. When there are a lot and buck numbers are small many do not get bred and cycle again into heat. Causing bucks more weight loss and stress.

Births become spread out and development of fawns shows the following year as sub par bucks(antler wise) and lighter weight deer in general.

Those Deer are also under weight going into a high stress period of winter and late spring. Making them of higher risk for winter kill. 

Weather becomes a factor for hunters in late season as snow deepens and holidays approach meaning less time and numbers of hunters afield. That causes the population to keep expanding as now does that were let go so the could be taken later on tags aren't taken and the problem continues....

Right, so the first week or two of gun season is the perfect time to knock them down. Or put a 2 week early antlerless season in September with a break between that and bow season, to give the deer a chance to calm back down. That way, the issue gets taken care of effectively.

[G-Man]

Lol ,just don't want to shoot them with bow and "mess up " your chances for buck.... A lot of the over populated areas are pretty populated no room to gun hunt legally bow can do it and should do it ,but hunter attitudes will never allow it as well there is a chance for a buck to come along,I don't want to shoot doe now.
Again I ask how do you change hunter mentaility? Do we need to give a treat out l like training a dog.. shoot 2 doe and get bonus buck tag? Register 2 doe before Oct 15 and next year's licence is free?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[WNYBuckHunter]

8 hours ago, stubby68 said:

                 You said going to a spot to much cuts down on your chance of getting a buck. Thats sounds like you are concerned with killing bucks not does.

                 You also said take 2 weeks of gun season and make that doe only. That means cur gun season.

                  What you are not saying is that in other states the bow hunters do very well at keeping the doe in check. Most other states haveing a gun season that is only a few days and bow season being much longer. Making the bow the main weapon used. Why does it work for other states but can not in NY?

                   As I have already said it is the hunter who refuses to shoot doe with there bow that is inaffective not the weapon.

                   Ever notice how bow hunters always say they are bow hunters that use guns as well. You think of yourselves as bow hunters useing guns not just hunters. Youbseperate yourselves from others. When I hunted with bow I also hunted with gun I called myself a hunter. Now I hunt only with gun and still say I am a hunter. I do not refer to myself as a gun hunter and I have never heard another gun only hunter say they are a gun hunter. Bow hunters make a point of saying I am a bow hunter never just a hunter.

                   Trophy hunter stigma is silly? How many times in this and every other thread on the antlerless rule have bow hunters said they would not hunt where they could not kill a buck?  How many times have they said they kill does but only in gun season because they hunt bucks in bow season? Not saying names but how many guys on here have said they do not shoot does any time they only want bucks? How many times have bow hunters said it does not matter when they shoot does and that they kill plenty during gun season? Well if it does not matter when you kill does then why not kill them during bow season. Oh wait that might screw up my chance at a big buck.

        All of this leads to the trophy hunter stigma that you give yourselves.

                

                      

Again, your missing the point of what I said.

 

Wait, how is that cutting gun season? Its fine with you to do that same exact thing to the bow season, why not gun?

 

Your ineffective hunter crap is nonsense, if you truly think that bows are as effective as guns, than you sir, are an imbecile.

 

As far as the separating "ourselves" from others, thats another load of crap. I have never once considered myself as a "bow hunter that hunts with a gun". Youre barking up the wrong tree with that broad brush painting pile of BS lol. Listen to yourself, all you keep saying is "bow hunters are trophy hunters" "bow hunters wont kill does" "bow hunter" this, "bow hunter" that. Who is it again that classifies groups of hunters and then starts their broad brush paining routine?

 

Yes, trophy hunter stigma is silly. Why? Because you say it like its a bad thing. If someone wants to trophy hunt, thats their business, and who the heck are you to tell them they shouldnt be doing it? Whats even sillier is that there are just as many, if not more guys that strictly gun hunt and wont shoot anything other than a "big buck", so your assertion that its a "bow hunter" thing is bunk.

 

I kill my does when I have the chance to, which is usually during gun season, but if the right opportunity comes along during bow, Ill kill them then as well. You see, many times when I have does in front of my stand during bow season, there are bucks there as well. Im not into educating the bucks on our property, so I wont shoot a doe with them around. If theres a buck that Im after present, then I will be trying to shoot him, and not worrying about does. Now, if a group of does comes along and there are no bucks visibly present, then Im probably going to take one if it gives me the opportunity for a good, clean shot. I actually use the same line of thinking during gun and ML seasons as well, its just that making a clean shot on a deer with either of those two weapons is far easier, and the range is far longer, so many more opportunities come around.

[WNYBuckHunter]

23 minutes ago, G-Man said:

Lol ,just don't want to shoot them with bow and "mess up " your chances for buck.... A lot of the over populated areas are pretty populated no room to gun hunt legally bow can do it and should do it ,but hunter attitudes will never allow it as well there is a chance for a buck to come along,I don't want to shoot doe now.
Again I ask how do you change hunter mentaility? Do we need to give a treat out l like training a dog.. shoot 2 doe and get bonus buck tag? Register 2 doe before Oct 15 and next year's licence is free?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 

Come on man, you know that line about not enough room to gun hunt is a load of BS. None of these areas we are talking about are bow only, and tons of gun hunting happens in them.

 

As far as my strategy on deer in any season goes, and when I shoot does, look at my last reply to stubby.

[G-Man]

Yes you as an individual do your part, look at general population. For example , 9f Is pretty populated archery is only viable option in many parts of it. As are many other areas. Bow use to open on 15th, 2 weeks extra they gave archers. Why?? To increase deer take. They could of just made it a 2 week gun season . They didn't they know archery is effective for taking game other states have proven it.
What they didn't factor in is Hunter attitudes..
That's all this comes down to, and they should issue extra permits in those areas immediately which would of made grow and others happy apparently.

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[WNYBuckHunter]

You keep saying other states use an archery doe only season to knock down the numbers effectively. What states are you talking about? Examples please.

[G-Man]

19 minutes ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

You keep saying other states use an archery doe only season to knock down the numbers effectively. What states are you talking about? Examples please.

Fairfax county in Virginia,  most of maryland, new Jersey, ohio (urban areas including the city of Cleveland and it's metro parks) Illinois,  just about every state uses archery to control deer numbers in certain counties and areas. It's effective and hunters kill doe many haversions earn a buck..

it's no different than have doe only in management areas for 2 weeks except nys hunter attitudes. .. no change is good change!! 

It's not that archery is ineffective look up takes in this states and areas the take is tremendous.  It's the buck first mentaility. I travel to Ohio every other day and know many hunters there ,they just have a diffeet attitude.. many get their urban permit fill the freezer with plentiful does then hunt their honey hole for a good buck.. 

The only argument you state is its not effective.. it is you give no soLuton to the actual problem of changing hunter attitudes to take anterless in a given area with bow during an anterless season that consider with a either sex season in other areas.. that is the issue!

[moog5050]

Don't waste your time or typing on arguing with Stubby.  He has set views of anyone that hunts with a bow.  Whether they are accurate or not, he will continue to define anyone that hunts with a bow by his narrow view.  That has become very evident.

[growalot]

Quote

Now wouldn't it have been grand if they had actually thought that plan out and offered a buck TAG FOR THOSE WILLING TO USE THERE'S EITHER OR...BUT ALAS THERES MY POINT YET AGAIN...THEY did not...

Stubby What you read and do not twist my words Is my answering G-Mans post..It was he that suggested the replacing the either or tag...Though it would have been an option...Now you can say I'm out to shoot bucks yadda yadda yadda...but past showing of my hunting proves other wise....

To your question...No I would have  STILL boycotted it. Inhale now breath out slowly ...OK Now try hard to take this in..What they said was We are implementing a doe only the first 2 wks of bow season. This is to lower the doe numbers in units "xyz". If we do not see the lower numbers we want, then we will be implementing a gun season in early bow. Now I'm not going to bother, once again, posting the definition of black mail,because I doubt that deep breath was able to open your mind enough to see it. Call me silly...I do not respond to black mail well. 

Now Stubby Please when you want to wail against nasty ole trophy hunting bow hunters, PLEASE find a better example than myself. You know...the person that wont ever have a head mount,doesn't hold their tag waiting for the monster to walk by, uses her buck tag to shoot a 6pt so someone that needs food gets some(would have filled it with a doe ,if one had cooperated). Also figure out what a real trophy hunter is. See when you throw that word at someone ,like me, and hope it sticks, Well you best make sure they haven't shown any buck they have gotten was one of opportunity not planned targeting. 

Edited August 10, 2016 by growalot

[Four Season Whitetail's]

51 minutes ago, moog5050 said:

Don't waste your time or typing on arguing with Stubby.  He has set views of anyone that hunts with a bow.  Whether they are accurate or not, he will continue to define anyone that hunts with a bow by his narrow view.  That has become very evident.

Has been this way for years. 

[growalot]

G-man  all this urban areas you keep mentioning...Have you ever toured around places like 8N and 8H even? because I live and have lived and worked in both these areas..Exactly what is your particular definition of "urban" ...I ask because much of what I see is rural...I also have a fair grasp on hunter attitudes from ppl in these areas and they may differ from those of ppl south of us..I'm talking general public attitudes, which does make a difference in hunting availability.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

17 minutes ago, growalot said:

Stubby What you read and do not twist my words Is my answering G-Mans post..It was he that suggested the replacing the either or tag...Though it would have been an option...Now you can say I'm out to shoot bucks yadda yadda yadda...but past showing of my hunting proves other wise....

To your question...No I would have  STILL boycotted it. Inhale now breath out slowly ...OK Now try hard to take this in..What they said was We are implementing a doe only the first 2 wks of bow season. This is to lower the doe numbers in units "xyz". If we do not see the lower numbers we want, then we will be implementing a gun season in early bow. Now I'm not going to bother, once again, posting the definition of black mail,because I doubt that deep breath was able to open your mind enough to see it. Call me silly...I do not respond to black mail well. 

Now Stubby Please when you want to wail against nasty ole trophy hunting bow hunters, PLEASE find a better example than myself. You know...the person that wont ever have a head mount,doesn't hold their tag waiting for the monster to walk by, uses her buck tag to shoot a 6pt so someone that needs food gets some(would have filled it with a doe ,if one had cooperated). Also figure out what a real trophy hunter is. See when you throw that word at someone ,like me, and hope it sticks, Well you best make sure they haven't shown any buck they have gotten was one of opportunity not planned targeting. 

Should be throwing his words at me. lol   I will shoot a doe when i can drive up and pick it up in my truck or wheeler. Not drag it 6 hours out of some gorge somewhere where i am hunting my trophy buck at. When the time is right and the place is simple i will fill my doe tags.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

22 hours ago, Larry said:

Dmp’s can be used at any time from October 1^st till the last day of the ML season. So I can’t see why is of you are saying that permits aren’t available when needed. You can get 2 8n’s now use them in October then on November 1^st get 2 more and use them. If you can fill 4 dump’s and need more have someone transfer 2 over to you.  

My gun hunting camp is in 7R. I get my tags for there. Many years I get 2 but sometimes just 1. I live in 8H. That is where I bow hunt and an occasional  gun hunt. I also hunt early ML up in 5H (northern Zone) Typically the either antlerless only bow/ML tag get used up north with the ML. The doe tags are for an area that I don't bow hunt. I get the 8H tags in the late November lottery and only have a couple weekends to use them. If I had them from the start of bow I could fill more. 

[phade]

We seem to forget that the first two weeks of October were an afterthought after gun moved to Saturday to appease that loss. Let's just call it more of the same politics that has endured and is what we saw with this antlerless insertion.

In large - the same people that influenced the decision making process are still in power.

Here is what has occurred during that time:

• One massive over-issuing of DMPs, leading to a significant drop in deer populations, taking more than 5 years to reach the level pre-issue.
• The MZ season in bow 10 years ago was only prevented by a massive opposition at the last second - it was being pushed and not sought out as an option at all.
• A DECALS/online licensing system that is amongst the worst in the nation; including a change of vendor that made no tangible improvement over the acknowledge weaknesses of the first version
• Outright refusing to acknowledge other options for antlerless harvest - such as OTC tag use, removing consignments, and eliminating the Nov 1 second application timeframe.
• Inserting the two weeks of antlerless without even tinkering with the right tool to do that job
• Repeated, regular failures to adjust operations to account for KNOWN deadlines - such as the BS that transpired with the regs book this year
• Poorly handling the AR topic and taking years to provide a stance - not even based on the actual studies they said would guide their decision making process.
• I am sure there are others I am forgetting...

These people have the best job security in the state. I am sure their jobs are NOT easy, but let's call a spade a spade here. Accountability lapses abound.

 

 

[WNYBuckHunter]

4 hours ago, G-Man said:

Fairfax county in Virginia,  most of maryland, new Jersey, ohio (urban areas including the city of Cleveland and it's metro parks) Illinois,  just about every state uses archery to control deer numbers in certain counties and areas. It's effective and hunters kill doe many haversions earn a buck..

it's no different than have doe only in management areas for 2 weeks except nys hunter attitudes. .. no change is good change!! 

It's not that archery is ineffective look up takes in this states and areas the take is tremendous.  It's the buck first mentaility. I travel to Ohio every other day and know many hunters there ,they just have a diffeet attitude.. many get their urban permit fill the freezer with plentiful does then hunt their honey hole for a good buck.. 

The only argument you state is its not effective.. it is you give no soLuton to the actual problem of changing hunter attitudes to take anterless in a given area with bow during an anterless season that consider with a either sex season in other areas.. that is the issue!

Ive given my solutions already, go back a page or two.

 

BTW, every single state you mentioned has something in common, and its not just bows or attitudes.

[stubby68]

                         Grow you are correct it was G-Man who brought up the buck tag and not you. I was not useing as an example of a trophy hunter . Atleast that was not intended. However your boycotting of hunting antlerless only for 2 weeks because you couldn't shoot a buck says alot about what you are after when hunting.

                 Can you show me where it was said by the dec to bow hunters shoot more does or else we will put guns in bow season. Bow hunters did not kill more does and I have yet to see where the so called black mail has put guns into bow season. In reality the dec said we need more does killed lets try to get bow hunters to take more does because the majority of kills reported by bow hunters are bucks. They also said if that does not work we will have to try  something else.  They chose bow season because it is the longest and has the least amount of doe kills reported.

[stubby68]

5 hours ago, WNYBuckHunter said:

Wait, how is that cutting gun season? Its fine with you to do that same exact thing to the bow season, why not gun?

 

Your ineffective hunter cr

       If you take 2 weeks of gun and make it doe only you only give me 2 weeks to fill my buck tag leaving a very good chance that tag does not get filled. Leaving me with a paid for yet not filled tag. Now if that tag was an either sex tag I would fill it with a doe and be very happy. I never said I thought it was ok to take 2 weeks of bow season and put it as doe only. however with losing 2 weeks to antlerless only bow hunters still had 6 weeks or better to fill the rest of there tags. If gun seasonnwas as long as bow season I would have no problem with antalerless for 2 weeks. Like I said I would love to have my reg season tag be either or. Probably get slapped on a doe every year.

             On page 2 you say the majority of bow hunters gun hunt as well. Why seperate the 2 ? Why not sY there are many hunters who use bow and gun? Is it because bow hunters always seperate themselves from other hunters?

             Yes I use a wide brush when talking about bow hunters.That is because the majority of bow hunters fit under that brush. The one or two who do not are insigniffent.  Are there gun hunters who trophy hunt? yes Not close to the number of bow hunters. Ask any gun hunter who is a trophy hunter if they hunt sith bow too an the answer will be yes.

             Why is trophy hunting bad? Lets go back say 30 years. Very few hunters used a bow. The main weapon for taking deer was a gun. The main reason for hunting was meat. Both by the gun and very few bow hunters. Back then bows were used as a way to put an extre deer in the freezer. As time passed more and more hunters started useing bows. We also saw a jump to hunters wanting big bucks. More guys started trophy hunting with bows and less for meat with guns. 30 years ago we didn't have such great population problems  nnor did we have people  omplaining about not getting nice bucks. We saw Nd killed nice bucks all the time. It was fIrly common. As trophy hunting mentality grew and the meat hunting mentality shrank we started haveing more and mor problems with our deer heard. Bottom line try hunting for meat and kill a few does and smaller bucks and we might see the heard get better.

[growalot]

your right Moog

[Doewhacker]

It "herd", not "heard". For the love of god.

 

[Doewhacker]

I'm not going too far into this thread but I will say, the bow kill% and gun kill% stay the same for a reason. It has nothing to do with attitudes, it is as simple as difficulty and total hunters. If you want to increase bow kill%, increase the season and add crossbows. The % will not be huge but it will increase and if you really want to see an increase change to a segmented season like the aforementioned states, Ohio to name one. Most gun kills are done the first few days of a season so there is a possibility that you could increase the gun kill% by offering multiple "opening days".

[moog5050]

33 minutes ago, growalot said:

your right Moog

Well I am glad he confirmed I and some others that posted are insignificant.   Perhaps he meant the exception.  Yeah, that's it.  We are exceptional.   Lol

When I was a young lawyer, I once heard a senior partner tell a group of us, if you are going to make a mistake at least do it consistently.  He would be proud of Stubby.  

Edited August 10, 2016 by moog5050

[WNYBuckHunter]

29 minutes ago, stubby68 said:

       If you take 2 weeks of gun and make it doe only you only give me 2 weeks to fill my buck tag leaving a very good chance that tag does not get filled. Leaving me with a paid for yet not filled tag. Now if that tag was an either sex tag I would fill it with a doe and be very happy. I never said I thought it was ok to take 2 weeks of bow season and put it as doe only. however with losing 2 weeks to antlerless only bow hunters still had 6 weeks or better to fill the rest of there tags. If gun seasonnwas as long as bow season I would have no problem with antalerless for 2 weeks. Like I said I would love to have my reg season tag be either or. Probably get slapped on a doe every year.

             On page 2 you say the majority of bow hunters gun hunt as well. Why seperate the 2 ? Why not sY there are many hunters who use bow and gun? Is it because bow hunters always seperate themselves from other hunters?

             Yes I use a wide brush when talking about bow hunters.That is because the majority of bow hunters fit under that brush. The one or two who do not are insigniffent.  Are there gun hunters who trophy hunt? yes Not close to the number of bow hunters. Ask any gun hunter who is a trophy hunter if they hunt sith bow too an the answer will be yes.

             Why is trophy hunting bad? Lets go back say 30 years. Very few hunters used a bow. The main weapon for taking deer was a gun. The main reason for hunting was meat. Both by the gun and very few bow hunters. Back then bows were used as a way to put an extre deer in the freezer. As time passed more and more hunters started useing bows. We also saw a jump to hunters wanting big bucks. More guys started trophy hunting with bows and less for meat with guns. 30 years ago we didn't have such great population problems  nnor did we have people  omplaining about not getting nice bucks. We saw Nd killed nice bucks all the time. It was fIrly common. As trophy hunting mentality grew and the meat hunting mentality shrank we started haveing more and mor problems with our deer heard. Bottom line try hunting for meat and kill a few does and smaller bucks and we might see the heard get better.

Soooo, its ok for bow season but not gun season. Contradict yourself much?

 

I just have to remember that this nonsense is coming from someone that believes that a bow and arrow is just as effective as a gun.

[Doc]

There is a pretty good chance that if the doe days were implemented in the season that has the most effective results, it would turn out that this magical 2 weeks, would be more like two or three days.

Doesn't it seem odd that this emergency overpopulation problem that plagues those targeted areas was never discussed or proposed to apply in a season that had the best odds of having significant success? Just how serious are they really when they apply the solution only in the least effective season. That's the real question that nobody is asking.