Crossbow/gun and whitetail population

[wolc123]

reeltime, The poll on this site (in the bowhunting section) did show that a 2:1 margin of bowhunters supported full inclusion.  That was a huge revelation for me and I see why "someone" made it go away as soon as the truth came out.  Those like you who are opposed do seem to be a bit more passionate, or maybe desperate in their arguments to hold the line.   It always gets that way when the end is near.   Relax, it will be ok.   You will still be able to use your compound or even a longbow or recurve if you wish.  Sharing the woods with some weaker, lazier, older, or younger folks won't be all that bad.   It might even increase your challenge a bit but isn't that a good thing?  It does not sound like you want to use an easier way to kill deer.     

[nyslowhand]

I've followed these Xbow threads for several years and they all seem to go the way this one is headed. Pretty sure the "Xbow poll" thread didn't merely disappear, more likely it was deleted by this forum's Admin/Mods for language or personal attacks. Sort of the direction this one is headed!! BTW - There was another similar poll taken in NYS regarding Xbow implementation. Not sure about the specifics, who conducted it or the particular demographics of the polled voters. Believe it was somewhere in the 60-70% in favor of implementation range. For what it's worth...!

I am a "closet" Xbow supporter. I've hunted with vertical bows when most forum members were still learning fractions. Joking..!  I pay my dues to NYCC in hopes they can persuade our NY legislators. I do NOT stand on a soap-box preaching for their inclusion. I DO listen to both sides of the argument, while dismissing most opinions as simply being overly zealous, biased or not fact based. I WILL agree with those that are against inclusion into archery season due to the "dreaded element" of hunters that might take up a Xbow. I've heard 1st hand stories of strictly gun hunters, buying or winning a Xbow in a raffle, shooting a few bolts (or not!), signing the DEC's " Crossbow Hunting & Safety" certificate and heading into the fall woods, All w/o any idea of how to hunt the typical archery season, how a BH kills or possibly even the most basic tracking skills. This I put full blame on our NY legislators and the DEC for dropping the ball by not requiring the Bow Hunters Ed course for Xbow usage and possibly even a special, token license. As of now, the DEC has no way to track how many hunters are using Xbows, what their specific harvest #s are or how these #s effect whitetail mgmt or harvest reports!! You'd think...!??!

 

[Doc]

19 hours ago, wolc123 said:

Why should people who are too weak, or don't have the time to become proficient with a "real" bow be able to hunt at the same time as them?  

Is this another one of those "everybody gets a trophy" arguments? Or maybe this is an argument in favor of abolishing any special bow seasons to satisfy the weak and infirm. How about those with ailments that won't allow them to cock their crossbows? Should we allow guns in to satisfy that level of incapacity?

For those that can't, or more likely refuse, to find the time or specifically don't want to be bothered with practicing and becoming proficient ....... What accommodations are we going to offer those in gun season that don't want to take the time to master their weapon? Come-on, some of these arguments are really getting ridiculous. Look just tell it like it is. The bowhunters have worked hard to establish a nice time of year to hunt and you want to shoe-horn your way into that season by hook or by crook without undergoing all the disciplines that go along with it. You really want to shove your way into the bow season without having to put up with all the reasons that a special season was set aside for bows in the first place. I suspect that if you all had your way, you would really like to drag your rifles into bow season, wouldn't you? Open the bow season to all weapons. That would satisfy all your concerns, and that is where you all are trying to go with all this crossbow nonsense. And in fact that is where we here in NYS have already made great strides toward going with it all.

[reeltime]

5 hours ago, wolc123 said:

reeltime, The poll on this site (in the bowhunting section) did show that a 2:1 margin of bowhunters supported full inclusion.  That was a huge revelation for me and I see why "someone" made it go away as soon as the truth came out. 

you have no idea why it went away in reality you have simply assumed that the author deleted it because of your 2:1 margin for support.   AGAIN the number of bowhunter or for that matter all hunters on this site is a fraction of a % of the licensed hunters in NY state, to think those numbers are anywhere near accurate across all licensed in NY state is simply a fantasy.

 

 

Those like you who are opposed do seem to be a bit more passionate, or maybe desperate in their arguments to hold the line.   It always gets that way when the end is near.   Relax, it will be ok.  

I'm opposed?  I am desperate?  I need to relax?   did I not just say in my last post that I don't give 2 craps if they are allowed?? you know nothing about me or my hunting beliefs.  I bought dad a crossbow several years ago so he could continue archery hunting, why did I buy it? because at the age of 83 he could no longer pull back his compound and a crossbow is a legal implement in Pa. thus giving him more years to hunt the warmer temps of archery season.    

 

You will still be able to use your compound or even a longbow or recurve if you wish.  Sharing the woods with some weaker, lazier, older, or younger folks won't be all that bad.   It might even increase your challenge a bit but isn't that a good thing? 

again with your assumptions, yes I will continue to use a compound, and once again you know nothing about me, my challenges are just fine.  and as far as sharing the woods with all the other folks I have been doing so for almost 40 years in much greater numbers than here in NY., believe me I have never had a problem killing deer with a bow in any state I have hunted including the new england states.

It does not sound like you want to use an easier way to kill deer.     

if I want an easier way to kill a deer I will use a gun as I did this year,  first time I used one to kill a deer here in NY since 2006, I used a bow from oct. to end of season.  Again I have never had a problem doing so even with a bow in gun season.

the problem with you is  all that matters to you is killing a deer,  doesn't matter the distance, weapon, or shot placement.  your own words on here prove that. unfortunately scores of other people do the same thing, long shots and beliefs that they can make even longer shots with the almighty crossbow.  some get lucky some are not so lucky and all at the expense of the deer, shows how much respect some hold for the game they hunt.

 

If you want to know who wants an easier way to kill a deer go look in the mirror.

 

[greg54]

20 hours ago, nodeerhere said:

A cross gun is a gun with a bow like aperatius attached to it! U know u shoulder it like a gun, u aim it like a gun, u take the safety off like a gun, u squeeze the trigger like a gun!!! And u cock it. Not draw it like a bow. Meaning u don't have to draw it and hold it until u release. I mean u might be able to hold it for a min if ur tough enough. That implement u guys want to put in bow season sure sounds like a gun to me. So that is a cross gun!

What about a blow gun? How do you cock it? Where is the trigger? I was just wondering;;;;;;;

[wolc123]

Reeltime,

I do agree with you on several points:  First, the crossbow should be treated as archery equipment and users should need the archery course to use it.  The requirement of that, as well as full inclusion, are part of the current bill that is stuck in state assembly.

Second, you are correct that I want an easier way to kill a deer.  The primary reason I hunt deer is to obtain food for my family.  Venison accounts for the bulk of the protein that we consume, and has for many years.   I don't want to see deer wounded and not recovered.  It has been more than 10 years since that has happened to me with any weapon, including vertical bows.  I have only shot at two deer with the crossbow and both shots resulted in extremely clean kills (1 heart, 1 double-lung).   I will say that my record with a vertical bow over 30 years of use was under 100%.  I have a lot of respect for my quarry and the crossbow enables me to minimize the chances  wounding them and not recovering the carcass.

You are way off mark on several points:   First, I would never want any type of gun in archery season, including rifles, shotguns, or ML's.  The "noise" of these would cause the deer to go nocturnal, making them more difficult for everyone to kill.  The reason for your bitterness is that you know deep down that your opposition is based on selfishness and that is a sin.  That is due to the Holy Spirit which lives in you and in all people.  God's power was never demonstrated more clearly than on this very day 2017 years ago, so it is very understandable that you are feeling particularly bad about your selfishness this morning, as evidence by all the bold in your response.  

Please try and relax and enjoy this, the greatest of all Holiday's. with your family.   The battle you are fighting here is lost.  I will leave you alone for a while now, and go watch my kid's open their presents.  There is not a crossbow under the tree this year, but there would have been if we had full inclusion.

Merry Christmas         

 

[Doc]

1 hour ago, wolc123 said:

.......you are correct that I want an easier way to kill a deer. 

And that is where you are missing the whole point of bow season. It was created as a challenge of handicapped weaponry. It was not ever meant to be "an easier way to kill deer". It is only the perversion of the original principles that is making all these people who want to remove those initial principles and purposes turning it into a free-for-all season.

....I don't want to see deer wounded and not recovered. 

Nobody wants to see any wounding or failures to recover game. However if your philosophy is to include the most efficient weapons into bow season that do the best job of preventing that, then throw down that crude crossbow and go immediately to a quality, scope-sighted rifle along with the hypocrisy of not abiding by your own words. Put your actions where your mouth is, as they say. Hunting in a season that allows for weapons challenges and handicaps is indeed full of potential for failure. So if you are insistent on eliminating potential for failure, pick up the rifle and stay in the appropriate season to back up your words.

........First, I would never want any type of gun in archery season, including rifles, shotguns, or ML's.  The "noise" of these would cause the deer to go nocturnal, making them more difficult for everyone to kill. 

And so your only limitations on what should be considered bow hunting involves noise and how that may interfere with your success. Well, unfortunately for you, you are not the one that decides such things. Other people such as politicians and government agencies make the real-life decisions. Your idea of where the line is drawn, really is not your decision to make. In fact the more the equipment changes draw in line with firearms, the more the precedents grow to include many more things than you ever imagined or wanted. That's what happened with the inclusion of compounds and the distinctions fade with each pollution of the original definition of  "bowhunting". You have arbitrarily drawn the line at  things that go bang. The real decision makers seem to have different ideas on that. And their attitude is driven by the fact that bowhunting no longer means hunting with a bow. You are now saying that bow hunting does not mean hunting with a bow and so the genie is now out of the bottle. The DEC and other decision makers are already expanding your thought to include other weapons ..... Yes, even the ones that go bang. So now you have opened the door to all kinds of unintended consequences.

The reason for your bitterness is that you know deep down that your opposition is based on selfishness and that is a sin. 

Tell me what do we call it when someone covets a season that was never designed for the crossbow and then plots to force their way in. Is that selfishness or is there another word that describes that kind of thoughtless disregard of the current users of that season? Will it be labeled "selfishness" if you try to stop firearms from making additional intrusions into the bow season. After all, you already have said that "rifles shotguns and muzzleloaders" are not welcome. Will you be called "elitist"? Is their anything selfish (sinful) about your insistence in refusing entry to guns and perhaps other weapons of new technology that may spin-off from the crossbow platform as compounds did? What kind of new names of derision and scorn will they develop for you and your newly acquired attitude of exclusion? It will become very interesting when the shoe is on the other foot.

 

 

Edited December 25, 2016 by Doc

[reeltime]

1 hour ago, wolc123 said:

Reeltime,

I do agree with you on several points:  First, the crossbow should be treated as archery equipment and users should need the archery course to use it.  The requirement of that, as well as full inclusion, are part of the current bill that is stuck in state assembly.

Second, you are correct that I want an easier way to kill a deer.  The primary reason I hunt deer is to obtain food for my family.  Venison accounts for the bulk of the protein that we consume, and has for many years.   I don't want to see deer wounded and not recovered.  It has been more than 10 years since that has happened to me with any weapon, including vertical bows.  I have only shot at two deer with the crossbow and both shots resulted in extremely clean kills (1 heart, 1 double-lung).   I will say that my record with a vertical bow over 30 years of use was under 100%.  I have a lot of respect for my quarry and the crossbow enables me to minimize the chances  wounding them and not recovering the carcass.

and taking 59 yard shots while admitting no previous practice at that range and although pure LUCK that you hit the deer well enough to kill it shows you have respect for the animal?  That and some of the other antics you have posted on shot selection again resulting in the death of the animal still does not justify the poor shot selection,  again all you care about is killing a deer no matter what part of the body you are looking at or what weapon is in your hands. deer are not for target practice, nor are they a stationary target in your yard that can not move.  As I said in a previous note,  taking low percentage shots will eventually result in wounded animals. Go look at wounded or lost deer threads one thing will stand out most of them are shots over 20 yards.

You are way off mark on several points:   First, I would never want any type of gun in archery season, including rifles, shotguns, or ML's.  The "noise" of these would cause the deer to go nocturnal, making them more difficult for everyone to kill.   

umm where did I ever say i wanted guns in archery season?   deer going nocturnal is simply an excuse hunters use for not seeing deer., when in fact its the hunter themselves that is the cause for not seeing deer. sloppy set ups, approaches to stands, understanding changing food sources, changing weather patterns are all factors leading to diminished deer sightings.  

I see it every single year, people go to 1 stand every single day, morning and evening and then they wonder why by the end of the season they don't even see a deer. people need to remember the DEER live there 24/7/365  every single second of their life they live is full survival mode. they are keenly aware of their surroundings. You go in set up a stand cut a bunch of shooting lanes  is like me walking into your house and moving your couch... they as you would notice it immediately.   

 

The reason for your bitterness is that you know deep down that your opposition is based on selfishness and that is a sin.  That is due to the Holy Spirit which lives in you and in all people.  God's power was never demonstrated more clearly than on this very day 2017 years ago, so it is very understandable that you are feeling particularly bad about your selfishness this morning, as evidence by all the bold in your response

my bitterness? my selfishness?  you clearly have a comprehension problem!  again I will say and even capitalize it to maybe make it easier to read for you....... .

I COULD CARE LESS IF THEY GO FULL INCLUSION   do you understand that? its not going to change the way I hunt, I do just fine with a vertical bow and would not change my parameters if I used a crossbow. 

a FYI  ( for your information)  the bold type is to help folks more easily read a response when you respond to several portions of a quoted note. 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, wolc123 said:

Please try and relax and enjoy this, the greatest of all Holiday's. with your family.   The battle you are fighting here is lost.  I will leave you alone for a while now, and go watch my kid's open their presents.  There is not a crossbow under the tree this year, but there would have been if we had full inclusion.

Merry Christmas         

Again you just do not get IT ,  and to religiously slam my beliefs when you have not a clue of my religious beliefs makes you look like a fool and a religious hypocrite.  I will and always have enjoyed the time with my family,  and do not need a "holiday" as an excuse to enjoy my family.  

 

 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Its all about change..........Things Change!       DEC wants deer dead......But they want to ban baiting,urine and such because of a non proven ghost... Has anyone ever looked at the freedom Texas enjoys?  Many other states are the same............Ny is and always has been the stupidest state ever when it comes to many things.  They will put XBow in because it will kill more deer off the landscape....Do they have any clue what te downfalls could be?  Nope..........Just like many others things they implement.

[upstate]

I've bow hunted for more years than some of you have been alive. My profile photo has me bow hunting in it. 

 

I've heard all of these arguments before (except the cross gun).  

 

Right now it's a big old dick swinging contest. You're not a man if you don't bow hunt. 

 

I'm confused, I thought I wasn't a man cause I shot a 1.5 year old buck? 

 

The biggest challenge facing deer hunters today is access to hunt and television shows, not a means to get a few hunters in the woods. 

[grampy]

I too have been bowhunting longer than some members here have been alive. Killed my first bow deer with a recurve in 1984. Since then I've killed a LOT of deer with a bow. I hunted with a bow this year and will continue to do so as long as my damaged shoulders will allow me to. My grandson will kill his first deer with a compound bow. But seeing some posts here, I guess I am a lazy slob, because I have killed deer and hunt sometimes with a crossbow. But ya know what? I don't give a rats patootie what anyone thinks! I don't hunt with a crossbow because it's easy, more accurate or any number of other things people are spewing about them. I do it because I want to, it's legal and it's fun! If they pass full inclusion fine. If they keep it the way it is now, that's fine too. I do feel strongly about having to have the archery education course to hunt with crossbow. I will still kill deer in bow season with or without a crossbow, but it will be "my choice"!! Not some cry baby thinking a slob like me might kill your damned deer! If you are so worried about us slobs killing your deer, then step up your game and learn a few new hunting skills!  And don't worry about what someone else is doing. Just hunt!

[Doc]

2 hours ago, upstate said:

.........Right now it's a big old dick swinging contest. You're not a man if you don't bow hunt......

Actually, you are failing to recognize a minority of the community desperately trying to maintain a bow season that is for bows. If there is any dick-swinging going on, I'm afraid that is some kind of vulgar exhibitionism on your part that those trying to stop the season takeover are not really a part of.

 

[upstate]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

Actually, you are failing to recognize a minority of the community desperately trying to maintain a bow season that is for bows. If there is any dick-swinging going on, I'm afraid that is some kind of vulgar exhibitionism on your part that those trying to stop the season takeover are not really a part of.

 

Your argument and logic is flawed. Plus this argument was used when they were considering making compound bows legal and guess what? I'll tell you, the sport survived, and it will continue to survive. 

 

Remember my point - 

The biggest challenge facing deer hunters today is access to hunt and television shows, not a means to get a few hunters in the woods. 

 

 

[nodeerhere]

See the problem is the gun hunters out weigh the bow hunters here probably 2 to1. So that's why the vote went that way. i say u whining crossbow hunters get the best Two wks of bow as it is. So leave it alone. 

[upstate]

13 minutes ago, nodeerhere said:

See the problem is the gun hunters out weigh the bow hunters here probably 2 to1. So that's why the vote went that way. i say u whining crossbow hunters get the best Two wks of bow as it is. So leave it alone. 

I am a bow hunter that supports full inclusion, just like the states that surround us. 

[grampy]

19 minutes ago, nodeerhere said:

See the problem is the gun hunters out weigh the bow hunters here probably 2 to1. So that's why the vote went that way. i say u whining crossbow hunters get the best Two wks of bow as it is. So leave it alone. 

The fact is, crossbow AND bow hunters hunt the same "best" two weeks. Anyone notice any big changes over the last couple years during that time? Myself, I have not seen any changes that I could associate with other hunters, or us using a crossbow, or not. Pretty much the same deer were or were not killed, regardless weather crossbow was used or not. The sky did not fall.

[JFB]

On 12/23/2016 at 9:17 PM, nodeerhere said:

How ever isn't Ohio a 1 buck state? 

That is exactly right. Ohio also does not have a four week long gun season and making guys really think which one buck they want is key. Those are huge differences. NY just always has the worst of all worlds when it comes to regulations. 

[nodeerhere]

The states that surround us have many other rules also! Antler restrictions, 1 buck per yr. shorter seasons! The list goes on! 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

59 minutes ago, nodeerhere said:

The states that surround us have many other rules also! Antler restrictions, 1 buck per yr. shorter seasons! The list goes on! 

Your Right!!  The list that makes for great deer hunting with great healthy herds of Whitetails.  Just what Ny should be!

[upstate]

We're getting off topic, no? 

 

Antler restrictions and one buck are completely unrelated to the question at hand. I'm surprised that this has taken only 3 pages to get off the rails 

 

 

 

[coonhunter]

I just don't get it. I bow hunt by myself sometimes, and sometimes with friends. One of my friends bought a crossbow last year and used it this year. Last year he got a buck with his vertical and this year he shot a doe with his crossbow. Same result for me, I got the pleasure of helping out on a 1/2 mile drag. 

I just don't worry about what others hunt with. Good hunters will continue to get the majority of the nice bucks whether it is with bow, cross bow, or gun. Hunting spots will continue to get harder to find and fewer hunters will go out. They can change the rules, seasons, limits, or whatever the DEC wants, but it will not change the fact that fewer hunters are in the woods every year.

[Doc]

10 hours ago, upstate said:

Your argument and logic is flawed. Plus this argument was used when they were considering making compound bows legal and guess what? I'll tell you, the sport survived, and it will continue to survive. 

Remember my point - 

The biggest challenge facing deer hunters today is access to hunt and television shows, not a means to get a few hunters in the woods. 

That's a great point and I agree, but of course it has nothing to do with this topic.

Your point about compound bows may be a bit premature. Actually the old-timers that argued against compounds were absolutely correct. They predicted that the compound would be the precedent and platform for changes that would completely bury the nature and purposes of bow seasons, and they were right. The compound was the first major move of those that wanted to ditch the idea of challenge from bow hunting. The compound became the precedent that the crossbow was based off of. And anyone who has listened to the arguments cannot deny that. The crossbow will be the precedent for muzzleloaders, and the muzzleloaders will be the precedent for rifles. And don't say it won't happen because it already is happening with muzzleloaders co-existing with bows and strong threats by the DEC that they are pushing for even more forced intrusions of muzzleloaders in the bow seasons. And when the DEC decided that bow season was a great place to slap in the youth rifle season for deer they did so with the intent of showing that rifles and bows can safely coexist (yet another precedent set).

No the compound did not trash the bowseason all by itself, but it did provide the very next step in the evolution of eliminating the "special" status of bow hunting. When you look at the bigger picture, it gets very clear what is going on. The direction that bow seasons are going is very clear to anyone who really cares.

 

[Doc]

7 hours ago, coonhunter said:

I just don't get it. I bow hunt by myself sometimes, and sometimes with friends. One of my friends bought a crossbow last year and used it this year. Last year he got a buck with his vertical and this year he shot a doe with his crossbow. Same result for me, I got the pleasure of helping out on a 1/2 mile drag. 

I just don't worry about what others hunt with. Good hunters will continue to get the majority of the nice bucks whether it is with bow, cross bow, or gun. Hunting spots will continue to get harder to find and fewer hunters will go out. They can change the rules, seasons, limits, or whatever the DEC wants, but it will not change the fact that fewer hunters are in the woods every year.

Let me try to clear it up for you.

Bow season was initially created to give a special season to those whose primary purpose was to limit the hunter's weapon and make a time of the year when a hunter could impose a great equipment handicap on themselves in their deer hunting. And almost since it's inception everyone has been determined to remove the very purpose the season was established in the first place. Now it is getting quite plain that bowhunters want to eliminate the very purpose of the season. As success rates continue to climb and technology is continually added to the archer's "special season", the gun hunters are starting to ask why there needs to be a "special" season reserved for bows when the original weapon that actually needed the special season is being drowned out by whatever technological advancement that anyone can dream up and stuff in there. And you know what? I am beginning to agree with them. The further we go with this war on "equipment challenge" in the bow season, the less that a special season can be justified. That notion is beginning to catch on, big-time and here we are feeding the demise of our own gains and specialness of bow hunting by further polluting the season. It's only a matter of time before our clever end-runs on the gun hunters becomes completely exposed and big adjustments take place. Now if you think that that will not affect bowhunters that actually limit their bowhunting to bows, I think you are mistaken.

[wolc123]

35 minutes ago, Doc said:

Let me try to clear it up for you.

Bow season was initially created to give a special season to those whose primary purpose was to limit the hunter's weapon and make a time of the year when a hunter could impose a great equipment handicap on themselves in their deer hunting. And almost since it's inception everyone has been determined to remove the very purpose the season was established in the first place. Now it is getting quite plain that bowhunters want to eliminate the very purpose of the season. As success rates continue to climb and technology is continually added to the archer's "special season", the gun hunters are starting to ask why there needs to be a "special" season reserved for bows when the original weapon that actually needed the special season is being drowned out by whatever technological advancement that anyone can dream up and stuff in there. And you know what? I am beginning to agree with them. The further we go with this war on "equipment challenge" in the bow season, the less that a special season can be justified. That notion is beginning to catch on, big-time and here we are feeding the demise of our own gains and specialness of bow hunting by further polluting the season. It's only a matter of time before our clever end-runs on the gun hunters becomes completely exposed and big adjustments take place. Now if you think that that will not affect bowhunters that actually limit their bowhunting to bows, I think you are mistaken.

Do you hunt with a recurve or a longbow?   How many years do you think we have before this steady progression will result in rifles used throughout archery season?   Will it be more than the 30 years or so years that crossbows have been legal in Ohio?  It sounds like your head may be in the sand here in NY, and you might be completely ignoring all the evidence in the surrounding states.

I see only one valid reason why someone would want to keep crossbows out, and that is to limit the number of hunters who have access to the deer before the guns are allowed in.    There are two specific words for wanting to have everything to yourself and not wanting to share with others who may be weaker or less skilled.   Those would be: SELFISH, and ELITISM.

I love it when the anti's try and turn things around and claim that those of us who want more folks to be able to enjoy more of archery season are the selfish ones.    Think about what you are saying before submitting your reply.  Not all of us hunt for the "challenge".   There are still many, like myself, who's primary reason is to provide meat for their family.    Is efficiently providing meat for others selfish?  Do you know that the number of hunters has been declining for many years and that the crossbow would be a good way to rekindle some more interest with groups which have been underrepresented, including the very young and old, woman, and handicapped?    Do you understand that even you will join one of those groups one day whether you want to or not?   Do you think you might change your selfish, elitist stance at that time?  Maybe we should establish a special early long-bow season for Olympic class athletes who have earned medals?    

When and if the change comes, and full inclusion arrives, no one is suggesting that you will not be able to challenge yourself more, if you wish, with compounds, recurves and longbows.  Yet you remain hell-bent on keeping the crossbow out to keep your "special time" to yourself.               

 

[growalot]

This makes me laugh...I wish we had a "dog chasing it's tail " emoticon. I was against them until I actually picked one up...I have hunted with one for 3 years now..I've taken 2 deer. Do I want full inclusion No, why? Because the DEC so screwed it up when they allowed a insignificant read and sign piece of paper to allow anyone to use one. It should always been a bow course requirement. But they had a need to "test" the waters so had to treat it as a "gun " type of weapon to do so quickly. Personally I think some of these brain storms develop at the local watering hole in Albany well past 5pm.

Want to know what the real effect will be...no deer and by gun season ,some seriously pizzed off gun hunters. Why? Because the deer are learning folks. So are the illegal hunters(want to talk St Lawrence county? The DEC did)  ..like it or not The deer have started to go nocturnal way earlier than they ever have. It's been a progression, the more people hitting the woods with bow in hand the later they hit travel routes and the earlier they leave feeding to bed. They are changing...The local Farmer who has guys hunting talked about it...no more flagging alerts,less snorting being heard. So I started talking to guys around different areas and the guys from camp...They didn't realize it until asked but, yes no flagging...guys I know that do drives  said the same. They bolt without raising their tails in alert. Now I don't participate in drives  but a bright white tail makes for a faster acquired target on a brown landscape...Nearly every one around here ,even those that got deer, said they saw fewer in legal hours. You won't catch a significant # of bow hunters doing stalks. YES, some do but not a significant number...with a crossbow...one is much more mobile..no drawing and acquiring the proper pin...it's raise and look through the scope...Like it or not it IS easier...and there you have it more guys "sneaking " around the woods ,into safety zones looking for that shot. Want to ask me how many deer I walked within feet of while leaving the woods. Not seeing them and they not moving until I was past them...I can tell you, many more then ever in past years.

Lets talk about your beloved buck...You think all these guys wanting cross bow in bow season are looking for "Just a deer" NO!, lets try just for a second, to be honest. They want a GOOD BUCK. So considering doe are smarter than buck..yes even your prized older ones...what do you think will be shot off? Young ones as well..It wasn't doe walking around sniffing my ladder rungs in day light this season it was 5 and 6pt's. So deer will be shot and early ,then the woods will settle a bit the rest of bow,but damage done,as it were.

So early gun or cross bow inclusion...really makes no difference the deer have already got the memo and started changing some time ago. So inclusion will just shift what everyone is beoutching about. It will be DEC about doe numbers and hunters about buck and no deer sightings...OH wait...That sounds familiar...hhhmmmmm