SB 4739 - Establishes the yearling buck protection program

[growalot]

When you say up your way ...is that Jefferson county?  So you feel the entire state needs to have AR's for herd health based on possible weather conditions for the health of the herd(winter kill). This based on what you see in one of the worst snow belts in the state the Tug Hill Plateau? Now to avoid any discomfort let me state.THIS IS A SERIOUS QUESTION not being sarcastic or condescending..just trying to understand the logic.

[Death From Above]

18 minutes ago, growalot said:

When you say up your way ...is that Jefferson county?  So you feel the entire state needs to have AR's for herd health based on possible weather conditions for the health of the herd(winter kill). This based on what you see in one of the worst snow belts in the state the Tug Hill Plateau? Now to avoid any discomfort let me state.THIS IS A SERIOUS QUESTION not being sarcastic or condescending..just trying to understand the logic.

Yes, Jefferson County, and No to your other statement.  Please read my post again.  I mentioned that this effects different areas differently, and addressed % not being an overly important factor.  I stated any measure of better is better than not addressing the issue.  I concurred that AR was not the best solution to this issue.  Pretty sure I stated all of that in my response.  Although he did not clarify, I think Phade was alluding to the fact that there are better ways to address this and I agreed.  He also mentioned that there are more pressing issues in need of addressing as well.  I have no idea what he might be thinking, but I probably might agree with him on that as well.  I was simply stating that if this is something that might be plausible, and it indirectly - but positively addresses starvation and winter kill, then I see a benefit.  If the DEC sees hunter satisfaction as more important than this issue, then that is the choice they have made. 

[Death From Above]

56 minutes ago, growalot said:

Let me address this...I am most certainly sarcastic..I believe I have openly mentioned this. That said my sarcasm hits full bloom when I see people posting about how they think their hunting experience needs to include EVERYONE else in the state and then hide behind "It's not about me it's about the health of the deer". They expect everyone to fall inline and believe every single "Science " based argument they present. This while completely ignoring or  offhandedly dismissing anything any one else posts to the contrary.Such as links from other biologist and yes other states that have shown ...IT DOESN'T work and wasn't needed.

 I get sarcastic when people just can not have an agenda and be totally honest about what is driving that agenda.

Now I can not nor will I take responsibility for how you or any one else feels reading words on a computer screen. You can't even see my facial expressions nor body language. I will not believe my words have so much power that you have to feel dissed. This all said Of course I laughed! Did you read what you wrote? ..hhhmmm Let me just use a familiar phrase..." Calling the Kettle black" Though I have to try and think back to how many personal, petty "attacks" any members have seen me make in this thread. 

 

Growalot – just read what you just posted, kind of case in point.

I am fairly certain that you just called me a liar, saying I am hiding behind something such as science, so as to not show my true intentions.  You completely disregarded any opinion I might have and said it was untrue, yet you accuse me of not looking past your computer to know what your intentions are. 

Yes, my opinions are different than yours.  We both can point to science, possibly.  Regardless of what you think, you might need to consider that there might POSSIBLY be people who would like to see our deer in the best natural shape they could take as a herd.  Yes, it may benefit me and gosh it could benefit you as well.  But maybe, JUST MAYBE there could be some who don’t have a hidden agenda past that simple fact.  You just told everyone that is not possible and that people like me need to be exposed for who we are, hence your agenda to do just that.  Due to this I now refer back to my sarcastic post that you seem to like to belittle those who do not share your opinions.  I’d prefer to debate back and forth, and not jump to calling you a liar just because you see things differently through your eyes, or through your computer.

FTR, I will help you with some research on my posts… Culvercreek Hunt Club called me on the carpet about five pages ago for using the word “stupid”.  Oops, he was right, poor choice or words.  I make mistakes all the time. 

You bet I displayed sarcasm in my post with the picture, and I don’t know what you meant by LOL, but I appreciated that you could see a little humor in it.  That is why I commented accordingly. 

Believe it or not, even though you just called me a liar, I will survive and try not to be overly concerned or effected by your "diss" as you called it.  We both are passionate about our ideas, just don't think we need to delve too much in to condescension and calling people liars for the points they defend.  Probably should send this via private message and save everyone the drama.

[tuckersdaddy]

What you were insinuating was that NY was going to become some "hot spot" for out of state hunters, a destination, which would infer that it would become like the midwest. It wont for the reasons I listed. Im not talking about local guys trying to gain access to the farms or surrounding land that a few trail cam pictures came from. That happens now.
 
I dont need for you to explain the QDMA to me, I was involved in the organization as an officer and board member of a branch up until earlier this year. I know what their goals are, what their stance is on ARs and AR legislation. They are a 501c3 btw.

so what you are saying is the qdma has no government ties? I see Ive hit a nerve here but im simply after transparancy as to who is pushing this bill...

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[growalot]

OMG... where did you see I said you specifically were a liar...

Quote

I see people posting about how they think their hunting experience needs to include EVERYONE else in the state and then hide behind "It's not about me it's about the health of the deer".

Quote

 I get sarcastic when people just can not have an agenda and be totally honest about what is driving that agenda.

Let me try this again....

Quote

Now I can not nor will I take responsibility for how you or any one else feels reading words on a computer screen. You can't even see my facial expressions nor body language. I will not believe my words have so much power that you have to feel dissed.

 

[Death From Above]

17 minutes ago, growalot said:

OMG... where did you see I said you specifically were a liar...

Let me try this again....

 

 I give up. 

[growalot]

Quote

Sure, we can say that nature is rough sometimes, we can suggest that increased competition amongst bucks leads to injuries, and one might suggest that more deer alive means less to eat = more starvation anyways.  But most of this topic seems to center on if there will be more bucks to harvest and if they will have bigger antlers.  I say if it is something that might lead to less winter kill, then I see that as a good enough reason to do whatever we can to address this “health benefit”.

I think that we might have a tougher time addressing bag limits and season changes, due to the fact that there isn’t as much visible “gold at the end of the rainbow” like many see with bigger antlers with AR.  I have a tough time seeing as many people lobbying for something that might benefit our deer if it came down to shortening seasons or eliminating a buck tag.  So I guess AR might be the best option to produce a potential reduction in the issues I mentioned above.

Here's the problem I have with that train of thought, Though you say you believe there are better ways.... you support a state wide LEGISLATION. The DEC was addressing this and JUST started the " let them walk" program. Now I'm sorry, some may think just one season..ONE season wasn't enough to make a difference for them. Do not expect others to think MANDATORY LEGISLATION is the answer either.

 Now I have to say to your train of thought. There comes a time when any people stating that for the HEALTH of any animal population, legislation is the answer to try to superseded Mother Natures, natural ebb and flow, are stating a fallacy.

Yes you can legislate human interactions with wild life...but never what Mother nature will do on her own.It is purely a flawed argument. Keeping humans from shooting specific deer in specific areas to "better" the herd has more than once been shown as a failure...Don't believe me, ask some of the other guys on this forum that have lived through the DEC doe management "issues" , when mother nature came in on their tails and took out what ever she wanted. There are still units trying to recover from that. I am not going to assume % or numbers in your unit nor any other units I'm not familiar with. I will though say guys in there little suits sitting behind their big desks in Albany have no business doing so either.

[chas0218]

2 hours ago, growalot said:

The younger the branch the less bitter,more tender palatable the bark. If I were to choose to chew on a maple branch to taste the sweet sap in spring, I would  choose a young tender branch for a sweet treat... Funny how analogies are ...anyone can MAKE ONE up.

PS.. didn't think I really needed to finish the comparison there..though......

But I didn't ask about tasting and chewing on wood.

 

2 hours ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

We heat our camp with limb wood so we minimize splitting.

So how old is this limb wood?

[growalot]

let me put this to bed..for the other members..

Quote

I am fairly certain that you just called me a liar, saying I am hiding behind something such as science, so as to not show my true intentions.  You completely disregarded any opinion I might have and said it was untrue, yet you accuse me of not looking past your computer to know what your intentions are. 

You  can also look the following up in the thesaurus...never see the word LIE in any connection to the phrase hidden agenda nor hide behind. though to lie or lie is to misdirect...see different words have different meanings. I chose not to use lie, you did. Again I can not  be responsible on how you personally take the words I choose...hide behind does not have lie associated with it ...Those are the words I chose.. what you choose to see is not my concern.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hide+behind

[WNYBuckHunter]

1 hour ago, tuckersdaddy said:

so what you are saying is the qdma has no government ties? I see Ive hit a nerve here but im simply after transparancy as to who is pushing this bill...

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 

Im not saying that at all. They probably have more of a voice in their political dealings than any other whitetailed deer organization. That doesnt mean that they have a vested interest in AR legislation, as they have made it perfectly clear that they will not get involved in such an effort unless it meets certain criteria. You havent hit any nerves with me, Im just pointing out that you are incorrect in what you are saying.

[Doewhacker]

Simply answer to the silly limb analogy, load the fire up with more wood, it burns at the same temp no matter what.

 

I can load my freezer up with a bunch of small deer to equal the amount of meat of a larger one. I may just start targeting Button bucks next year.

[growalot]

Quote

I can load my freezer up with a bunch of small deer to equal the amount of meat of a larger one. I may just start targeting Button bucks next year.

They certainly will :

1. Taste better

2. Be easier to handle one at a time

3. Be much faster to handle in warm weather

4. Certainly reduce the stress of too much too soon for the freezer.

5. Allow you to eat supper sooner after a kill.

Hard to see a down side...

[Culvercreek hunt club]

so what you are saying is the qdma has no government ties? I see Ive hit a nerve here but im simply after transparancy as to who is pushing this bill...

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Let me clear this up for you. The individual branch may choose to back this but national is not.

[Raymond Purdy]

6 hours ago, stubborn1VT said:

Animal husbandry is a science, but by definition applies to domestic animals.  That is because the amount of variables is controlled on a farm, allowing for strict management. It doesn't apply to free ranging animals that face varying challenges like weather, availability of food, and hunting pressure.  There are too many variables to think that you can simply manage a state's deer herd like they were a docile herd of cattle.

Yeah Biologist don't know what they are talking about.

[growalot]

[Culvercreek hunt club]

So how old is this limb wood?

Never counted he rings since it met our needs

[Raymond Purdy]

3 hours ago, growalot said:

Nearly every pine and spruce I have ever lost on this place was due to rubbing...My young maples, oaks,fruit trees and chestnuts..taken out by buck. Now with the numbers of ( and you can look this up) fruit, nut and berry orchards around, plus  nut tree and pine plantations in western central NYS. Your saved bucks will have Kill orders put out on them in greater numbers by the DEC...They will issue damage permits and I guarantee these farms will apply for them more then ever. You can barely spit  without hitting someone in a fruit or Christmas tree operation in these areas. Showing buck damage is the easiest damage to prove. Seeing I'm in to plants I can tell you the association of nut tree growers is growing rapidly. I can't imagine any of the logging operations that own lands wont look for relief and more than from the hunters they lease to. I could name 4 Christmas tree farms around me that get extra buck damage permits that they give out to archers in Oct.-November...it's big business here.

Yeah those Archers really can stack them up, those high rates of harvest are clearly shown in the stats. Where?

[stoneam2006]

Yeah those Archers really can stack them up, those high rates of harvest are clearly shown in the stats. Where?

I killed 4 with my bow last year....archery season is the easiest....put AR's for archery only if any at all

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[Raymond Purdy]

2 hours ago, Death From Above said:

 

I certainly agree that there are better ways to deal with it, but I think sometimes we don’t look at the end result of what we are discussing.

I think much of this comes down to winter kill, and especially starvation.  If we can do something to minimize starvation in fawns that are under developed due to late birthdays, or spread the stress of the rut on more bucks, we automatically reduce the probability of putting many deer through winters they won’t likely make it through.  We can look at percentages in an attempt to determine just how bad this is – and it differs for sure in different areas.  Still, and improvement on this number is and improvement, and there is a value on that even in small numbers.  Watching fawns bed in the same spots in fields I drive by for a couple days sucks.  They are simply starving and it doesn’t take long till the coyotes realize this.  I like the idea of limiting this scenario, even if I can't predict just how many deer it might save each year. 

Sure, we can say that nature is rough sometimes, we can suggest that increased competition amongst bucks leads to injuries, and one might suggest that more deer alive means less to eat = more starvation anyways.  But most of this topic seems to center on if there will be more bucks to harvest and if they will have bigger antlers.  I say if it is something that might lead to less winter kill, then I see that as a good enough reason to do whatever we can to address this “health benefit”.

I think that we might have a tougher time addressing bag limits and season changes, due to the fact that there isn’t as much visible “gold at the end of the rainbow” like many see with bigger antlers with AR.  I have a tough time seeing as many people lobbying for something that might benefit our deer if it came down to shortening seasons or eliminating a buck tag.  So I guess AR might be the best option to produce a potential reduction in the issues I mentioned above.

When I find winterkill up my way it rarely appears to be an adult sized doe.  I see lots of fawns, and most of the bucks are the year-old variety.  Coincidence?  Maybe, but I don’t think so.  I think it is more of a product of the age structure in our deer herd.

Bam!

[growalot]

That had nothing to do with archery per say...Of course a TREE farm would use archers first. Here comes the sarcasm.. Do I really have to explain how bucks damage trees..and what time of year they do so?... The farms I'm speaking of have workers in the field year around , tours from schools, people that just come in to hike, and even bee keepers...yes they have a reason for using archers. Now how could one possibly show stats for a statement of what will occur with an increase of more mature bucks under a legislative ruling that hasn't occurred yet? That would be like you trying to show me stats on how that same legislation improved the health of the deer herd...Give me a freaking break from the nonsense.

[Larry]

I would like to know how Animal husbandry has anything to do with free ranging deer. When by definition Animal husbandry is the care and breeding of Domesticated livestock. Here are some of the techniques used: breeders, herd health specialists, feeders, and milkers to help care for the animals. Techniques such as artificial insemination and embryo transfer are frequently used, not only as methods to guarantee that females are bred, but also to help improve herd genetics. This may be done by transplanting embryos from stud-quality females into flock-quality surrogate mothers - freeing up the stud-quality mother to be reimpregnated. This practice vastly increases the number of offspring which may be produced by a small selection of stud-quality parent animals. This in turn improves the ability of the animals to convert feed to meat, milk, or fiber more efficiently, and improve the quality of the final product.

I would think it would be extremely difficult to employ any of these techniques on free ranging deer.

[turkeyfeathers]

Whoaaaaaa, slow down on the posts as this thread is catching up to the beer thread

[chas0218]

1 hour ago, Doewhacker said:

Simply answer to the silly limb analogy, load the fire up with more wood, it burns at the same temp no matter what.

 

I can load my freezer up with a bunch of small deer to equal the amount of meat of a larger one. I may just start targeting Button bucks next year.

Won't last as long and would need a lot more smaller limbs. Do what you want kill all the deer on your property for all care just don't complain you don't see any.  Better yet with your logic take a sledge into the woods and shoot those bucks and break the antlers off so you can use that DMP on them and save that antler tag for that "Big one" you have been seeing on the camera.

[phade]

3 hours ago, Death From Above said:

 

I certainly agree that there are better ways to deal with it, but I think sometimes we don’t look at the end result of what we are discussing.

I think much of this comes down to winter kill, and especially starvation.  If we can do something to minimize starvation in fawns that are under developed due to late birthdays, or spread the stress of the rut on more bucks, we automatically reduce the probability of putting many deer through winters they won’t likely make it through.  We can look at percentages in an attempt to determine just how bad this is – and it differs for sure in different areas.  Still, and improvement on this number is and improvement, and there is a value on that even in small numbers.  Watching fawns bed in the same spots in fields I drive by for a couple days sucks.  They are simply starving and it doesn’t take long till the coyotes realize this.  I like the idea of limiting this scenario, even if I can't predict just how many deer it might save each year. 

Sure, we can say that nature is rough sometimes, we can suggest that increased competition amongst bucks leads to injuries, and one might suggest that more deer alive means less to eat = more starvation anyways.  But most of this topic seems to center on if there will be more bucks to harvest and if they will have bigger antlers.  I say if it is something that might lead to less winter kill, then I see that as a good enough reason to do whatever we can to address this “health benefit”.

I think that we might have a tougher time addressing bag limits and season changes, due to the fact that there isn’t as much visible “gold at the end of the rainbow” like many see with bigger antlers with AR.  I have a tough time seeing as many people lobbying for something that might benefit our deer if it came down to shortening seasons or eliminating a buck tag.  So I guess AR might be the best option to produce a potential reduction in the issues I mentioned above.

When I find winterkill up my way it rarely appears to be an adult sized doe.  I see lots of fawns, and most of the bucks are the year-old variety.  Coincidence?  Maybe, but I don’t think so.  I think it is more of a product of the age structure in our deer herd.

When it comes to winterkill scenarios in under-capacity areas - when it does happen - you want the fawns to die rather than the middle class/breeders. You want the old/inactive in breeding to die. Seeing them dead is a sign for you to know that things are happening right. Seeing fawns dead and lots of middle class deer, that is when you have real winterkill problems.

That's why in certain scenarios, quality deer management actually can include fawn harvest during the hunting season as part of a sound management plan.

The other component is that many parts of the state do not need deer to survive better (if you take the DEC for word). They're trying to reduce populations. You think the DEC is interested in improving the ability for deer to survive winter when they have been trying to drive increased harvest numbers - to the point of ramming down a forced season?

[WNYBuckHunter]

46 minutes ago, chas0218 said:

Won't last as long and would need a lot more smaller limbs. Do what you want kill all the deer on your property for all care just don't complain you don't see any.  Better yet with your logic take a sledge into the woods and shoot those bucks and break the antlers off so you can use that DMP on them and save that antler tag for that "Big one" you have been seeing on the camera.

So wait, youre saying a pound of mature buck meat will last longer than a pound of yearling buck or fawn meat?